Could Corey Deuel have been one of the all-time greats?

SUPERSTAR said:
Tell this to chess prodigies, or math prodigies.
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Training.

Aptitude is a beginning. Desire is the motivation.

The argument never ends but the fact is that skill level rise with each generation as more people are exposed to world class levels and new techniques.

If Corey had grown up in No-PoolTown USA and had access to the only pool table in town with no one around him who played being more than a D-player would he still have become world class?

No the word prodigy means nothing special to me. It means that someone is taking a child and killing their childhood by forcing them into whatever box that the parent decides they are talented for. If I kid is old enough to make their own decisions and wants to pursue an activity then great. But there is no reason to parade a five year old around and promote them as a prodigy.

I have no problem encouraging kids to run with what interests them and what they show aptitude for. I have lot of issues with people who take that and make kids "work" at it or who manipulate kids into "wanting" what the parents think that they should be doing as a career.

Mosconi, "marketed" as a prodigy, ended up hating pool because of how his father marketed and pushed him. An early fascination was turned into a hated job before Mosconi was ten years old.
 
Landing squarely on the side of "talent", we have Tsung Tsung.

Maybe he already put in his 10,000 hours. But I bet after 10k hours, what this kid can do vs. some average guy is noticeably different.

Probably what corey could do at the 10,000 hour mark is also quite different from the average 20 year league veteran who has perfectly ok eyesight and fundamentals.

I think that funky creativity corey shows in shots like this one is a sign of natural talent. There are good players, maybe even pros who will go their whole life without even trying one of these funky spin trick shots. They may execute standard position routes to perfection but need ten tries to do that shot. He just gets up there and does it on the first try in a tournament.

Not sure if practice drills, excellent coaching, etc. can produce a brain that thinks of such a shot, or the great coordination needed to execute it.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
Apparently, all that hard work didn't teach the guy about heart.
Who just ran away from the SVB match with their tail between their legs?
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Ok, I was going to let this go but I just can't. Jesse has more heart than 99% of the world. The reason we are not hearing an appology about why that match didn't go off is simple. No one owes us an appology. I mean there was no agreement of any kind with anyone other than Jesse and Shane. A guy with a camera makes a poster on AZ and suddely we all think they owe us some free entertainment. Most of us acted very poorly to the news.

I think Shane knew long before we did that Jesse wasn't coming. They had an argument about the rack. Jesse said the only way he plays is with a wood rack, racking for each other. Shane wanted the magic rack so he could slow roll the break.

Regarding heart. There has been an open invite to all at leisure time Billiards in moline. Duanne has been willing to put up 10K for Jesse vs anyone on the bar table. A few guys have tried it. Parica did. It ended badly for him. Dave Matlock came and won but Jesse got it all back a few days later. My point is they have heart and the money is good. Come get some of it. Cory by the way, Is included when you say "anyone" I assume so anyway. (Not my 10K)

But anyway let's assume you were the best in the world. You hear about a guy who will put up 10K. How long would it take you to get there? Just sayin. Jese was traveling to this match 500 miles to play the best in the world who was 30 miles from his house. Who was the aggressor? So when it ended by Jesse saying "Everything has to be shanes way" can you understand that a little bit?

There are 2 sides to every story. No one owes us either one.
 
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CreeDo said:
Landing squarely on the side of "talent", we have Tsung Tsung.

Maybe he already put in his 10,000 hours. But I bet after 10k hours, what this kid can do vs. some average guy is noticeably different.

Probably what corey could do at the 10,000 hour mark is also quite different from the average 20 year league veteran who has perfectly ok eyesight and fundamentals.

I think that funky creativity corey shows in shots like this one is a sign of natural talent. There are good players, maybe even pros who will go their whole life without even trying one of these funky spin trick shots. They may execute standard position routes to perfection but need ten tries to do that shot. He just gets up there and does it on the first try in a tournament.

Not sure if practice drills, excellent coaching, etc. can produce a brain that thinks of such a shot, or the great coordination needed to execute it.
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Corey certainly didn't make that shot up on the fly. He knew what would happen because he had figured it out long before.

John Schmidt also had dozens of shots like this. You won't see them often but when you do you think wow, that was amazing. Because it was. But it's not because of talent or a superior brain, it's because he spent the time to figure out that shot and practiced it until he could do it on demand.

Same with Efren and his statement that he watches amateurs fluke a ball and takes that shot to the table until he can do it on purpose. Doing that not only teaches you that shot but opens doors to many more.

As for Tsung Tsung would you like to bet a beer on how much teaching/training he has received to date? I am 100% sure that his family didn't just put a piano there and woke up to him filling the house with beautiful music one morning.
 
JB Cases said:
:-) That is evidence of desire. Which a lot of people think is the variable that matters.

Many Mozart scholars think that his father 'helped' quite a bit with those early compositions - to the point that some say he really wrote them. Kind of like the little girl who was hailed as an amazing artist who was revealed to have been heavily coached by her father to the point of almost holding the brush.

Actually we are debating the obvious assumption. Which is that anyone who is good is good because of natural talent. Over time science and research indicate that the romantic notions of "god given talent" and "having been born to do x" are not true. World class is attainable by most who are physically and mentally capable and those that rise to championship level are generally shown to have worked harder and deeper than their contemporaries.
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You can put me in a room with the best instructors in the world for years, and I'll never play the violin like a master. I have no natural aptitude for it. (I play other instruments.)

People can have a natural aptitude that makes any sort of activity easier for them than for others. Of course, couple that with hard work and that can lead to greatness.
 
JB Cases said:
Training.

Aptitude is a beginning. Desire is the motivation.

The argument never ends but the fact is that skill level rise with each generation as more people are exposed to world class levels and new techniques.

If Corey had grown up in No-PoolTown USA and had access to the only pool table in town with no one around him who played being more than a D-player would he still have become world class?

No the word prodigy means nothing special to me. It means that someone is taking a child and killing their childhood by forcing them into whatever box that the parent decides they are talented for. If I kid is old enough to make their own decisions and wants to pursue an activity then great. But there is no reason to parade a five year old around and promote them as a prodigy.

I have no problem encouraging kids to run with what interests them and what they show aptitude for. I have lot of issues with people who take that and make kids "work" at it or who manipulate kids into "wanting" what the parents think that they should be doing as a career.

Mosconi, "marketed" as a prodigy, ended up hating pool because of how his father marketed and pushed him. An early fascination was turned into a hated job before Mosconi was ten years old.
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Ever give a cue to somebody that never played before? I have seen people who couldn't make a bridge. I have also seen people that immediately made a good stance bridge and stroke. I wouldn't pick them to win championships a few months later but I would expect them to move faster than most given their desire. I happen to share both opinions. I have seen naturally talented athletes not put the full work into their training and fall short of the championship as I have seen the least gifted hardest working guys succeed. Desire and work ethic are huge factors but some just "get" the game from the start. I think talent has many scales. Nobody just picks up a cue and is dominant but some pick it up and just have an eye for the game
 
I went to the gun range a couple years ago with my friend and his wife, she had never fired a pistol in her life-mid 40's. I been shooting guns since I can remember and am pretty handy with them.


I been shooting with many different people a million times over the years, I know a few people who shoot better than I do, most dont. I have trained many people how to shoot. Worked with a friend at a indoor range in Vegas years ago, so point is I seen all sorts of people on their first day with a gun in their hands 99.99% flinch, cant hold it right, scared of recoil, noise, muzzle blast etc. Always seems to be the same problems.

then there was Franks(RIP) wife, at 10 yards they were all going in the same hole. She looked like she had been shooting for YEARS, I never seen anything like it. I know 100000% for a fact she was being honest. it was nothing like I had ever seen before, she was like a duck in water. After 10 minutes it was over, she achieved what most never attain. I bumped her up to a 1911 .45 Wilson Combat Superior Grade, all in the same hole at 15 yards. the target looked like a test target from a gun in a vice. How she shot like that with zero experience was perhaps the most amazing display of raw talent i ever saw. It got me to thinking about pool and other things. cant train in what God left out(I aint religious, just sounds good)



Of course Cory is one of the all time greats, hell he aint all that old, there is lots more he is going to win, he aint leaving pool. I know first hand I was only with him for 12 hours yesterday.
 
justadub said:
You can put me in a room with the best instructors in the world for years, and I'll never play the violin like a master. I have no natural aptitude for it. (I play other instruments.)

People can have a natural aptitude that makes any sort of activity easier for them than for others. Of course, couple that with hard work and that can lead to greatness.
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^^^^This^^^^

World champ level skill in anything is a combination of very high aptitude and hard work. You cannot get there with only one of those two things.
 
JB Cases said:
No the word prodigy means nothing special to me. It means that someone is taking a child and killing their childhood by forcing them into whatever box that the parent decides they are talented for.
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This is simply, your opinion.

Nobody killed Corey's childhood.
Nobody forced him into a box.
Believe me, Corey's mom (may she RIP) didn't decide that he was talented at pool, and railroad him into it.

Prodigy
1
a : a portentous event : omen
b : something extraordinary or inexplicable
2
a : an extraordinary, marvelous, or unusual accomplishment, deed, or event
b : a highly talented child or youth

OMG! Did the dictionary just use the word talent?:eek:
 
JB Cases said:
Training.

Aptitude is a beginning. Desire is the motivation.

The argument never ends but the fact is that skill level rise with each generation as more people are exposed to world class levels and new techniques.

If Corey had grown up in No-PoolTown USA and had access to the only pool table in town with no one around him who played being more than a D-player would he still have become world class?

No the word prodigy means nothing special to me. It means that someone is taking a child and killing their childhood by forcing them into whatever box that the parent decides they are talented for. If I kid is old enough to make their own decisions and wants to pursue an activity then great. But there is no reason to parade a five year old around and promote them as a prodigy.

I have no problem encouraging kids to run with what interests them and what they show aptitude for. I have lot of issues with people who take that and make kids "work" at it or who manipulate kids into "wanting" what the parents think that they should be doing as a career.

Mosconi, "marketed" as a prodigy, ended up hating pool because of how his father marketed and pushed him. An early fascination was turned into a hated job before Mosconi was ten years old.
Click to expand...

Ive played poker at a high level for 25 years and I can tell you there are people that are a "prodigy" Stu Ungar picked up poker after he couldn't get a gin game from anyone he was the reason that they stopped gin tournaments in vegas. First time he entered a poker tournament he won the wsop main event. he was a card prodigy his brain worked diffrently then others like when I personally seen him take a bet against BoB Stupak at 10-1 odds the bet was six deck shoe of blackjack as fast as a dealer could turn up the first half of the shoe Stu had to tell what was remaining in the second half of the shoe both card and suites he won 100k
 
Aight I know this thread is sort of trailing off but I wanted to point out...

Not every child who does magical talented things got there because tiger mom cracked the whip at them from an early age.

What this guy does was not taught to him by his parents. He taught himself. After listening to a random dubstep song once, he plays a creative arrangement of it on the piano. He's only been playing 3 years.

And it's not just children of course, there are some adults with gifts that flat out can't be taught: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjoNt2viUz0&feature=player_detailpage#t=44s

It's not that much of a leap to think that some of these people, rather than doing something as jawdropping as writing symphonies or telling you what day of the week it was on christmas of 1903, simply have a gift for visualizing contact points, estimating tip offset to product the correct angle off a rail, or swinging their arm with near perfect speed control.
 
CreeDo said:
It's not that much of a leap to think that some of these people, rather than doing something as jawdropping as writing symphonies or telling you what day of the week it was on christmas of 1903, simply have a gift for visualizing contact points, estimating tip offset to product the correct angle off a rail, or swinging their arm with near perfect speed control.
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Exactly. Which is why I mentioned earlier that anyone of us with the right amount of practice, can become really good at pool. Maybe even great. But unless you have some sort of natural talent, no amount of practice and dedication will make you the next SVB.
 
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