Could SVB be the G.O.A.T. ???

jtompilot said:
Shane won’t be the best ever till he starts beating the top players in 1P. Efren has beaten the top players in almost every game.
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One pocket is kind of a regional one-off game. Yes if people want to gamble big in the US they need to learn it.

But saying that accomplishment in one-pocket has something to do with being the best overall player is not reasonable because just not enough people care about it. It is a specialized subskill and there are many many countries and whole continents that don't care about it.

I would have the same objection if a Canadian said accomplishment at Hockey must be a fundamental part of what determines who are North America's best athletes.
 
jay helfert said:
Just FYI, there are only a few guys that will play Shane even Ten Ball in the Philippines and only one (Efren) who will play him One Pocket or Banks (Francisco maybe in Banks). Shane has pretty much robbed all comers in the PI (beat Alcano something like seven times in a row). I can only think of Dennis and DeLuna who will play him now. Lee Vann, Chua, Bustie, Ignazio, Gomez, Dudong, Warren and any other Tier One players have no interest in tangling with Shane. He is highly respected over there. Just thought you'd like to know that. :wave:
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Jay, I am curious. When was the last time SVB travelled to PI for an extended trip?

Thanks.
 
mikepage said:
One pocket is kind of a regional one-off game. Yes if people want to gamble big in the US they need to learn it.

But saying that accomplishment in one-pocket has something to do with being the best overall player is not reasonable because just not enough people care about it. It is a specialized subskill and there are many many countries and whole continents that don't care about it.

I would have the same objection if a Canadian said accomplishment at Hockey must be a fundamental part of what determines who are North America's best athletes.
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Couldn't disagree with you more. A specialized subskill? You mean like a specialized subskill that requires a high understanding of all other pool games to be played at a high level. I guess if you want to measure overall player by someone who uses a template rack and the numbers on a ball to dictate their options, or by shooting balls directly into any of the six pockets more power to you.
Dosnt it take alot higher overall knowledge of pocket billiards to play high level one pocket than it does to play high level 10ball or 9ball? As far as your comment on countries goes, maybe that's why all these possible names mentioned for G.O.A.T. are only coming from the two countries that have the best one pocket players in the world. JMHO
 
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overseas

mikepage said:
Yes, for good reason. SVB's collective record in our database against Orcullo, Biado, Aranas, Pagulayan, Corteza, Chua, Kiamco, Ignacio, and Bustamante is

847 to 652
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Mike, do you have the ability to filter for where the match was played? I'm curious how SVB's overseas fargorate compares to his domestic. My prediction is that it would be very close based on how many other myth's have been busted and his back to back 2nd place finishes in the world championships, but I'd be curious to see. Thanks.
 
J SCHWARZ said:
Dosnt it take alot higher overall knowledge of pocket billiards to play high level one pocket than it does to play high level 10ball or 9ball?
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Obviously, there are games that require more strategy than others. One-Pocket and Straight Pool being the prominent two that come to mind.

I've always considered 9 and 10-ball a "shooters" game and 14.1 and 1-hole a strategic game (with 8-ball falling somewhere in between). Not that is doesn't take good shooting to win at any discipline, but strategy is what usually makes the difference in non-rotation games.

Then there's 3-cushion, Balkline, and other similar games that require masterful cueing skills. Let's not forget Snooker that requires a solid stroke and an eagle-eye.


Point is...there is no denying that some games require more strategy to succeed in than a game where shot-making is the most necessary.

Maniac
 
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I noticed the line is now winding around the block of the guys that wanna play Shane 1 pckt.....or any game for that matter. :rolleyes:
Jason
 
Many people believe that Jordan is the GOAT even though Lebron has many records over him, and other players as well. Jordan may be the GOAT, but he was not the best in every aspect of the game

Efren is not the best in every game and neither is SVB. So who is the GOAT in each individual game.

8 Ball

9 Ball

10 Ball

1 Pocket

14.1

any other games that matter
 
J SCHWARZ said:
Couldn't disagree with you more. A specialized subskill? You mean like a specialized subskill that requires a high understanding of all other pool games to be played at a high level. I guess if you want to measure overall player by someone who uses a template rack and the numbers on a ball to dictate their options, or by shooting balls directly into any of the six pockets more power to you.
Dosnt it take alot higher overall knowledge of pocket billiards to play high level one pocket than it does to play high level 10ball or 9ball? As far as your comment on countries goes, maybe that's why all these possible names mentioned for G.O.A.T. are only coming from the two countries that have the best one pocket players in the world. JMHO
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You misunderstand me.

Here is what I think of one pocket. It is a sophisticated game for which excellence requires a complex mix of patience and aggression, knowledge, and skill in controlling the path and speed of both cueball and object ball. A typical shot has multiple coupled objectives. It is a fantastic game, and it is a pleasure to see it played at a high level.

My point is something different. Unless it is widely AGREED amongst the top pool players everywhere that this is a significant component to what we mean by general excellence at pool, then it is a poor measure of general excellence.

If you are around Kentucky, then being an excellent all around pool player seems to you to be about being good at banks, rotation, and one pocket. People would think it is not a big deal if you don't excel at snooker or carom games, for example. A bunch of people in the UK might propose that to be considered a "great all around player" on a world scale, you had to be accomplished at rotation pool, snooker, and blackball.

Both groups would be making the same error. Whatever criteria we use to define greatness at a world level ought to at least be generally recognized by the world's top players from everywhere as being a significant component of what greatness means.

The gambling crowd mostly in parts of the US elevates one pocket. And yes it is an amazing game. But if Joshua Filler or Ko Pin Yi or Jiaqung Wu or Albin Ouschan or Eklenti Kaci don't agree it is important to master to be considered a great pool player, then it is just a bad measure of what makes a great pool player.

This is true whether it is a sophisticated game or not.
 
Bic D said:
Many people believe that Jordan is the GOAT even though Lebron has many records over him, and other players as well. Jordan may be the GOAT, but he was not the best in every aspect of the game

Efren is not the best in every game and neither is SVB. So who is the GOAT in each individual game.
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8 Ball: Efren

9 Ball: Too many in the conversation to list.

10 Ball: Shane

1 Pocket: Efren

14.1: Greenleaf, Mosconi, Mizerak

Banks: Taylor

Rotation: Efren
 
Maniac said:
Obviously, there are games that require more strategy than others. One-Pocket and Straight Pool being the prominent two that come to mind.

I've always considered 9 and 10-ball a "shooters" game and 14.1 and 1-hole a strategic game (with 8-ball falling somewhere in between). Not that is doesn't take good shooting to win at any discipline, but strategy is what usually makes the difference in non-rotation games.

Then there's 3-cushion, Balkline, and other similar games that require masterful cueing skills. Let's not forget Snooker that requires a solid stroke and an eagle-eye.


Point is...there is no denying that some games require more strategy to succeed in than a game where shot-making is the most necessary.

Maniac
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8 Ball is an abortion made up to be played on vending machine (balls don't come back). At the pro level it can be overpowered. From time to time you can get into a chess match but generally it's nuclear war. Release the missiles and win or lose. The only decision is when. Don't look at your average league player who gets three turns each game.

Are you a big breaker...check
Can you play proper patterns...check
Can you execute at a high level...check

If the above applies then 8 Ball is a power game that the pros own it. It's the Tic-Tac-Toe of pool.
 
PoolBum said:
8 Ball: Efren

9 Ball: Too many in the conversation to list.

10 Ball: Shane

1 Pocket: Efren

14.1: Greenleaf, Mosconi, Mizerak

Banks: Taylor

Rotation: Efren
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I disagree. 8 Ball - Efren's break is a limiting factor. 9-Ball it's SVB or Earl (see US Open)
 
mikepage said:
You misunderstand me.

Here is what I think of one pocket. It is a sophisticated game for which excellence requires a complex mix of patience and aggression, knowledge, and skill in controlling the path and speed of both cueball and object ball. A typical shot has multiple coupled objectives. It is a fantastic game, and it is a pleasure to see it played at a high level.

My point is something different. Unless it is widely AGREED amongst the top pool players everywhere that this is a significant component to what we mean by general excellence at pool, then it is a poor measure of general excellence.

If you are around Kentucky, then being an excellent all around pool player seems to you to be about being good at banks, rotation, and one pocket. People would think it is not a big deal if you don't excel at snooker or carom games, for example. A bunch of people in the UK might propose that to be considered a "great all around player" on a world scale, you had to be accomplished at rotation pool, snooker, and blackball.

Both groups would be making the same error. Whatever criteria we use to define greatness at a world level ought to at least be generally recognized by the world's top players from everywhere as being a significant component of what greatness means.

The gambling crowd mostly in parts of the US elevates one pocket. And yes it is an amazing game. But if Joshua Filler or Ko Pin Yi or Jiaqung Wu or Albin Ouschan or Eklenti Kaci don't agree it is important to master to be considered a great pool player, then it is just a bad measure of what makes a great pool player.

This is true whether it is a sophisticated game or not.
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GOAT of what? OK, I’ll give Shane the 10 ball title but that doesn’t mean a whole lot.

Let’s have a hypothetical match between Efren and Shane and here’s the games they have to play. 8, 9, 10 ball, rotation, 1P, 3C, 14.1
Efren wins at least 4-3.

I think you underestimate 1P in the overall contribution to pool. 1P is growing in Europe and Asia. Just look at the DCC, tons of foreigners are playing banks and 1P.
 
jtompilot said:
GOAT of what? OK, I’ll give Shane the 10 ball title but that doesn’t mean a whole lot.

Let’s have a hypothetical match between Efren and Shane and here’s the games they have to play. 8, 9, 10 ball, rotation, 1P, 3C, 14.1
Efren wins at least 4-3.

I think you underestimate 1P in the overall contribution to pool. 1P is growing in Europe and Asia. Just look at the DCC, tons of foreigners are playing banks and 1P.
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Yes, I know DCC is a major event and is attracting some good players from outside the US. That's good. I've been working yesterday and today on getting in European Championships going on right now. Major event, all the top players from all over Europe. They have tournaments in four disciplines: 14.1, 10-Ball, 9-Ball, and 8-Ball. There are perhaps 100-150 700+-speed players there. My guess is most play very little one-pocket. Perhaps I am wrong about that.

Take Poland for instance. High-level pool is crazy right now in Poland. Lots of 750+ players. Anybody know if these guys play one pocket?
 
sjm said:
No, he's not even in the conversation. Without World Nine 9-Ball titles or any major WPA titles, he has come up empty time and time again in the events having the toughest fields in our sport. If you don't win the toughest titles, you're not the best ever. No doubt, with all his titles at the US Open and Derby City, Shane is on the short list of the best nine ball players ever.

That said, Shane is in the conversation for the best ever American player.

Measuring him against Lassiter, for example., makes for an interesting comparison. Lassiter won two of the three disciplines at Johnston City in three consectuive years. Lassiter was considered the best nine ball player of his era and he was also one of the world's best straight pool players. In action, many consider Lassiter the best player of all time.

I'd put Shane above Earl Strickland, Buddy Hall, and Johnny Archer in nine ball.

I'm not so sure Shane is a better all-around player than Nick Varner was. Nick was a world champion in each of 8-ball, 9-ball, straight pool and bank pool. Similarly, Mike Sigel was a beast in virtually every discipline, and, in my view, was a better player than Shane.

Shane has had a magnificent career, but he's most definitely not the best ever.... even if if we leave the legends of straight pool like Mosconi, Greenleaf and Crane out of the equation.
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Shane is on the list but he's not better than earl or Johnny in there prime both Johnny an earl have multiple world 9 ball titles.
 
jay helfert said:
That was downstairs in Shreveport where Buddy played any living human that wanted to play. It drove Louie crazy that Buddy could give him the seven and beat him, and he came back at least three times with a fresh bankroll to try again. An interesting side note is that the only player to ever beat Buddy in Shreveport was Dan Louie. They were playing even too!
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Was this with the big cue ball? I heard Danny was an absolute terror with the big rock...

Short Bus Russ
 
parvus1202 said:
In Rotation you play all pool discipline, one pocket, three cushion, banks, carom, snooker. Now you know why Reyes won in every pool discipline. Even at the time SVB retires he will never be like Reyes.
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Realistically, Efren owes more of his dominance to the 3 cushion / straight rail billiards he played after he killed all his action in the Phillipines.. A very large percentage of his "magical" shots come from his billiards play, not Rotation.
 
PoolBum said:
It didn't stop him from winning three World 8-Ball Championships and two of the three IPT tournaments.
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He's Great...just not the best ever 8 Ball player. IPT data should be thrown out. Not an "open" type tourney. SVB was still a teen and some stayed away for good reason.
 
GOAT:

14.1 - Willie Mosconi
Nine Ball - Earl Strickland
Bank Pool - Eddie Taylor
One Pocket - Efren Reyes

Best all round, not even in the list, Sigel and Lassiter.

So, where does that leave you?

All the best,
WW
 
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