Could SVB be the G.O.A.T. ???

[jay helfert]

Many... and I mean MANY of the "greatest players" said Worst was the BEST. And he died in his mid 30s. How much more might he have won had he made it into late adulthood? We'll never know. Lasiter, I believe, said Worst was the best player he ever saw, bar none.

He was probably the best I ever saw too. He had it all - composure, discipline, heart, gamble, ABILITY and SKILL, and desire to win! I've said it before and I'll say it again. Harold was a man's MAN! He had the respect of all the players, hustlers and tourney players alike. He stood taller than anyone I ever saw along with Hubert Cokes and Bugs for the respect they got just by being in the room. Worst had a presence about him that is not quantifiable in words. He was soft spoken and calm at all times, even in the face of adversity. You couldn't ruffle him, that's for sure. If you tried he would beat you cold, showing no mercy. The hustlers, including Fats, showed deference to Harold at all times. I never saw anyone bark at Harold and I never saw him raise his voice. Most people were hesitant to even speak to him and would only respond if he spoke first. I was around him a couple of dozen times and never said a word to him. He was special and everyone knew it. Harold Worst was a once in a lifetime athlete and sportsman, kind of like a Jack Nicklaus or Roger Federer.

By the way, I don't want to give the impression that Worst was a cold man because that would be wrong. When he engaged someone he would be amiable and even humorous, and was an intelligent and thoughtful man. He never spoke with haste or was brash, and never talked about himself or his accomplishments. He enjoyed himself and the life he chose, that much was obvious.

 

[WildWing]

You only hit the tip of the iceberg. In 9-Ball Sigel had to also deal with David Howard, Danny Medina, Efren, Luat, Jimmy Fusco, Rempe, Mizerak, West, Swanee, Cole, Ray Martin, Massey, Lisciotti, Butera, Mataya and Davenport. All of these guys were very strong players capable of beating anyone on a given day. Sigel would grind his way through this crew winning tough match after tough match just to get to the finals.

Just to set the record straight, Mizerak was the dominant Straight Pool player of this era and Mike was second to him. Between them they won everything in 14.1.

And, by the way, the list is not complete without mentioning Louie Roberts, Don Polo, Tommy Kennedy, Willie Munson, and others. Sigel was in that era. Build the iceberg as you will; I think I've seen a good deal of it. Should there be a complete iceberg list? I don't know...

All the best,
WW

 

[Michael Andros]

He was probably the best I ever saw too. He had it all - composure, discipline, heart, gamble, ABILITY and SKILL, and desire to win! I've said it before and I'll say it again. Harold was a man's MAN! He had the respect of all the players, hustlers and tourney players alike. He stood taller than anyone I ever saw along with Hubert Cokes and Bugs for the respect they got just by being in the room. Worst had a presence about him that is not quantifiable in words. He was soft spoken and calm at all times, even in the face of adversity. You couldn't ruffle him, that's for sure. If you tried he would beat you cold, showing no mercy. The hustlers, including Fats, showed deference to Harold at all times. I never saw anyone bark at Harold and I never saw him raise his voice. Most people were hesitant to even speak to him and would only respond if he spoke first. I was around him a couple of dozen times and never said a word to him. He was special and everyone knew it. Harold Worst was a once in a lifetime athlete and sportsman, kind of like a Jack Nicklaus or Roger Federer.

By the way, I don't want to give the impression that Worst was a cold man because that would be wrong. When he engaged someone he would be amiable and even humorous, and was an intelligent and thoughtful man. He never spoke with haste or was brash, and never talked about himself or his accomplishments. He enjoyed himself and the life he chose, that much was obvious.

Someone told me Lasiter had caught some s**t for saying Worst was the best player, tourney or for the cheese, he'd ever seen because his decades-long road buddy was Don Willis who many players thought was the best money player ever. So just thinking how strong it was for Lasiter to have said that about Worst. Now, I have no idea if Wimpy really did say that, but that's what I heard, at any rate. And if true, it sure speaks volumes about Harold Worst.

 

[jay helfert]

I agree with the part about needing to win a few more international events, but the MC??? Efren is widely considered the GOAT and he never even played in one, as many others named on here haven't either.


Besides, the MC is nothing but an entertainment event and shouldn't be a reflection on any pool players skill/legacy. Heck, they're getting guaranteed money for just showing up. If the MC was is to be considered as a serious tournament, then they need to put muzzles on all the unruly fans. It's a joke, imho.

Maniac

I have to disagree here. Say what you want about the MC, but if you are one of the lucky ones chosen to represent your country or continent than you have a responsibility to perform at your best. Shane has failed here, that much is obvious.

 

[jay helfert]

And, by the way, the list is not complete without mentioning Louie Roberts, Don Polo, Tommy Kennedy, Willie Munson, and others. Sigel was in that era. Build the iceberg as you will; I think I've seen a good deal of it. Should there be a complete iceberg list? I don't know...

All the best,
WW

Louie Roberts for sure! He scared the pants off the lot of them.

 

[jay helfert]

Someone told me Lasiter had caught some s**t for saying Worst was the best player, tourney or for the cheese, he'd ever seen because his decades-long road buddy was Don Willis who many players thought was the best money player ever. So just thinking how strong it was for Lasiter to have said that about Worst. Now, I have no idea if Wimpy really did say that, but that's what I heard, at any rate. And if true, it sure speaks volumes about Harold Worst.

Ronnie said that I believe. I doubt Lassiter would ever say anything like that. He liked to think of himself as the best. Luther was proud of his standing in the pool community and he protected it. Don Willis on the other hand was content to stay in the shadows.....and get the cash!

 

[Michael Andros]

Louie Roberts for sure! He scared the pants off the lot of them.

I know you feel this way Jay, and I knew Louie and watched him play countless times so I feel the same way. It's been said that when Louie was "right", NO swingin' d**k could get there with him for the cash. Nobody. Unfortunately, for myriad reasons, and especially his last 5 or 6 years or so, he was rarely "right". But man... when he was? A FORCE OF NATURE. I saw him get the 8 from Sigel once in Tampa and it was a joke. Louie stuck him up. And that's back when Sigel was @ 25 or so. And was winning everything is sight.

 

[Michael Andros]

Ronnie said that I believe. I doubt Lassiter would ever say anything like that. He liked to think of himself as the best. Luther was proud of his standing in the pool community and he protected it. Don Willis on the other hand was content to stay in the shadows.....and get the cash!

Yup, I heard that about Willis a lot. So maybe is was Mr. Allen who said it? Well, as I said, I had no idea if Lasiter ever really said it, that was just what I heard. And for me? It seems like an even bigger compliment coming from Ronnie Allen.

 

[WildWing]

Someone told me Lasiter had caught some s**t for saying Worst was the best player, tourney or for the cheese, he'd ever seen because his decades-long road buddy was Don Willis who many players thought was the best money player ever. So just thinking how strong it was for Lasiter to have said that about Worst. Now, I have no idea if Wimpy really did say that, but that's what I heard, at any rate. And if true, it sure speaks volumes about Harold Worst.

Probably not true, at least in Luther's older age. He said in front of me and a few others, as well as Jimmy Moore, that the best player was Babe Cranfield. This was at Harrah's, Atlantic City in 1982. Lassiter died a few years later. I have a feeling that had to do with a long challenge match won by Cranfield, but that's the latest witnessing I've heard from Luther calling anyone the best.

So, if you go back long enough, there are many names. Enjoy the past.

All the best,
WW

 

[pt109]

I knew Louie Roberts a little bit....a pleasure to have around.
....but Buddy gave him the seven all he wanted.

 

[mikepage]

Probably not true, at least in Luther's older age. He said in front of me and a few others, as well as Jimmy Moore, that the best player was Babe Cranfield. This was at Harrah's, Atlantic City in 1982[...]

All this reminiscing is fun, and i enjoy it. But you guys are actually a bunch of romantics, imo. I cannot think of an activity that has an ABSOLUTE measure:

mile run
marathon run
10K run
100M swim
800M swim
High Jump
Long Jump
javelin throw
Shot Put
weightlifting
discus

and the list goes on... where the historic greats compare to the top performers of today.

And yet when it comes to RELATIVE sports, where competitors are measured against each other and the comparison is not so easy, it almost seems discourteous and disrespectful to suggest today's performers are better.

Again, it is fun. And those greats did what they did in the context of their times. And it takes nothing away from them and their accomplishments to say the level of play is higher now.

I think though.... It is...

 

[jay helfert]

I knew Louie Roberts a little bit....a pleasure to have around.
....but Buddy gave him the seven all he wanted.

That was downstairs in Shreveport where Buddy played any living human that wanted to play. It drove Louie crazy that Buddy could give him the seven and beat him, and he came back at least three times with a fresh bankroll to try again. An interesting side note is that the only player to ever beat Buddy in Shreveport was Dan Louie. They were playing even too!

 

[Nostroke]

All this reminiscing is fun, and i enjoy it. But you guys are actually a bunch of romantics, imo. I cannot think of an activity that has an ABSOLUTE measure:

mile run
marathon run
10K run
100M swim
800M swim
High Jump
Long Jump
javelin throw
Shot Put
weightlifting
discus

and the list goes on... where the historic greats compare to the top performers of today.

And yet when it comes to RELATIVE sports, where competitors are measured against each other and the comparison is not so easy, it almost seems discourteous and disrespectful to suggest today's performers are better.

Again, it is fun. And those greats did what they did in the context of their times. And it takes nothing away from them and their accomplishments to say the level of play is higher now.

I think though.... It is...

I just heard an announcer say Johnny Weissmuller's dominating record in the 400M Freestyle in the 20's was 49 seconds slower than KATIE Ledecky's current record. That's also a sport with absolutely no equip involved.

The human race is rapidly changing especially women. In 1900, females reached sexual maturity at 17 on average-Today 12 and many as low as 8 or 9.

 

[jalapus logan]

So I'm on board with Shane being the GOAT simply because I think he's the toughest competitor all things considered in these disciplines. One pocket and straight pool and banks and rotation just aren't the measuring sticks in today's day and age.

I certainly respect your opinion and I acknowledge that much of the world agrees that rotation based pool is the bee's knees. However I remain in the Greg Sullivan camp in that an all around test such as the DCC is the best measure of ability rather than a rotation specialist.

Shane is amazing, but not yet goat material. In the future, perhaps, but he had better pick up the pace. All my opinion of course.

 

[Maniac]

Again, it is fun. And those greats did what they did in the context of their times. And it takes nothing away from them and their accomplishments to say the level of play is higher now.

I think though.... It is...

I think that it is also, especially when you factor in all of the great international talent that is out there today.

Maniac

 

[BeiberLvr]

All this reminiscing is fun, and i enjoy it. But you guys are actually a bunch of romantics, imo. I cannot think of an activity that has an ABSOLUTE measure:

mile run
marathon run
10K run
100M swim
800M swim
High Jump
Long Jump
javelin throw
Shot Put
weightlifting
discus

and the list goes on... where the historic greats compare to the top performers of today.

And yet when it comes to RELATIVE sports, where competitors are measured against each other and the comparison is not so easy, it almost seems discourteous and disrespectful to suggest today's performers are better.

Again, it is fun. And those greats did what they did in the context of their times. And it takes nothing away from them and their accomplishments to say the level of play is higher now.

I think though.... It is...

Thank you for putting this into better words than I could have.

The top 5 players of the 40s and 50s would still probably be pretty good today, but my money would be on the top 5 players of today.

 

[nine_ball6970]

He's the only person besides Efren to win back to back one hole at Derby, which is arguably the toughest one hole tourney around.

Jaden

According to Wikipedia, Efren won one pocket at Derby 4 years in a row (2004-2007). Shane won two years in a row(2011-2012). Alex won 2 years in a row(2015-2016).

Efren won master of the table five times. Shane and Alex both won it twice. Coincidentally they won it when winning the one pocket.

 

[Jaden]

Correct...

According to Wikipedia, Efren won one pocket at Derby 4 years in a row (2004-2007). Shane won two years in a row(2011-2012). Alex won 2 years in a row(2015-2016).

Efren won master of the table five times. Shane and Alex both won it twice. Coincidentally they won it when winning the one pocket.

I had forgotten about alex getting it a couple of years ago.

Jaden

 

[Runner]

I don't think Shane would want any part of Efren playing 15 ball rotation.

Would you still pick Shane if Bustamante broke for Efren like the days when Efren was trying to get anybody in the world to play that game giving up weight?

Efren in his prime would destroy Shane in some formats and not be a big dog in others. Just my two cents.

THIS...

Shane has a monster break and shotmaking ability, but we're talking Of All Time here,
Both in their prime?

Efren - 15 ball rotation, One Pocket, 14.1

Shane - 9 ball and 10 ball

Efren in his prime beat many monster 9 ball players with big breaks, Earl, etc. with his
shotmaking, safety play, and kicking ability which no one could believe.


As of now, GOAT to me is still Efren.

 

[Get_A_Grip]

THIS...

Shane has a monster break and shotmaking ability, but we're talking Of All Time here,
Both in their prime?

Efren - 15 ball rotation, One Pocket, 14.1

Shane - 9 ball and 10 ball

Efren in his prime beat many monster 9 ball players with big breaks, Earl, etc. with his
shotmaking, safety play, and kicking ability which no one could believe.


As of now, GOAT to me is still Efren.

I agree with this, except you can also add 8-ball to Shane's column.