This is an interesting TED talk about improvements in sports performance over the years
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COaMKbNrX0
Could SVB be the G.O.A.T. ???
- Thread starter Maniac
- Start date
This is an interesting TED talk about improvements in sports performance over the years
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COaMKbNrX0
Deleted-Misread youtube description
Last edited:
Can't help but agree, but would suggest DiMaggio would contend. At any rate, Shane is way to young to be bestowed this title at the present. Lot of work left.
All the best,
WW
I just picked an event, 400M run, and I looked at the top 6 times at the NCAA meet by year. Thats kinda like saying what performance would be required to make the 400M "Mosconi Team" that year. The trend is pretty clear. I think this sort of thing is typical.
Attachments
victhestick
Registered
I am biased toward Efren, But what I add is true. I played with Efren in the late seventies. When he came to the US and was on TV in the late eighties, I watched him on TV numerous times. I remember thinking "What is wrong with you Efren?".. He did nor nor play anything like I remembered. I though it because of the higher amounts of Money. Today I think it was because he was stalling on the world. He did not want to win on TV, because it would ruin his action
By the way, Efren started his career at the age that SVB is now.
By the way, Efren started his career at the age that SVB is now.
Dave McCumber's book relates a story of playing the second best player in the Phillipines at the time, when that player was 18. The player was Efren Reyes. He "started his career" internationally after he killed all his pool and billiards action in the Phillipines by decimating everyone under Jose Parica. In all games.
Short Bus Russ
Excellent video. Lots of highly interesting insights. Well worth watching. Thank you!
I think Chang, Wu, Ko PIn Yi, Dennis Orcullo play every bit as good 9/10-Ball as SVB does. I cannot see SVB winning consistently over these guys.
SVB has made more money than them Yes, for a number of reasons: starting by chance meetings and locations, nationality, and amazing attitude hard work and will to make money,SVB really has that and knows how to win, etc.., and SVB has probably won more tournaments than them 5, and some bigger paying tournaments too, but he does not play better than any of these 5 players.
Everyone is quick to remember the beating SVB put on Orcullo last time they played in Las Vegas for the $, but they forget quick that Dennis won the 2-3 times before then.
Chang has beaten SVB at least once, I was present, not sure if they played a 2nd time, but I know Chang has not lost when matching up with SVB.Chang has never lost to Orcullo neither and they have played at least twice for the $.
It's pretty close though, and many people, even in Asia thinks SVB is indeed the best, especially 10-Ball and largely because of his break shot, even though I agree what has been said in here, one of SVB biggest strengths is his mental toughness, and not just his break.
As per the WPA World titles, to me (2) Second places for SVB in super strong fields are better than a" fluke" 1st place that some lesser european players have managed to get.
Not to mention, the (5) US Open 9Ball Championships had every top player from around the world there and at least a few years were stronger fields than a WPA World Championship.
SVB is one of the very best for sure, but there are a few more right there with him..
I think Yang Ching Shun had a span of 8-10 years where he played amazing pool, lost a couple of semi-finals in big tournaments, but he played the best regardless of that...
Yet for most, he will never be mentioned as GOAT, not even talking 9-10Ball games only, but this taiwanese man played perfection pool a few years back, and none of the legends from past or present could touch him in the long run (no Parica, no Efren, no Strickland in my opinion)
Tournaments are not for everyone, not just because of what they demand, but cuz some players in certain areas throught the world will never even get the opportunities to attend some tournaments, so to me, based on skill alone, there are quite a few players who are or have been better than a long list of world champions.
Chang Lin beats most players consistently, and he's beaten most of the very best while they were on their prime. Including: Bustamante,Pagulayan,SVB,Biado (just a few months after Biado won WPA W9BC), and many other top taiwanese,filipinos etc..
Many in Asia think matching up Chang is the best there is, and the world should know that in Asia anyone that can bring a big amount of money and a player can get played by Chang, no doubt!
Just like SVB would play anyone rotation pool in the USA.
Who's better? Probably neither.
SVB has made more money than them Yes, for a number of reasons: starting by chance meetings and locations, nationality, and amazing attitude hard work and will to make money,SVB really has that and knows how to win, etc.., and SVB has probably won more tournaments than them 5, and some bigger paying tournaments too, but he does not play better than any of these 5 players.
Everyone is quick to remember the beating SVB put on Orcullo last time they played in Las Vegas for the $, but they forget quick that Dennis won the 2-3 times before then.
Chang has beaten SVB at least once, I was present, not sure if they played a 2nd time, but I know Chang has not lost when matching up with SVB.Chang has never lost to Orcullo neither and they have played at least twice for the $.
It's pretty close though, and many people, even in Asia thinks SVB is indeed the best, especially 10-Ball and largely because of his break shot, even though I agree what has been said in here, one of SVB biggest strengths is his mental toughness, and not just his break.
As per the WPA World titles, to me (2) Second places for SVB in super strong fields are better than a" fluke" 1st place that some lesser european players have managed to get.
Not to mention, the (5) US Open 9Ball Championships had every top player from around the world there and at least a few years were stronger fields than a WPA World Championship.
SVB is one of the very best for sure, but there are a few more right there with him..
I think Yang Ching Shun had a span of 8-10 years where he played amazing pool, lost a couple of semi-finals in big tournaments, but he played the best regardless of that...
Yet for most, he will never be mentioned as GOAT, not even talking 9-10Ball games only, but this taiwanese man played perfection pool a few years back, and none of the legends from past or present could touch him in the long run (no Parica, no Efren, no Strickland in my opinion)
Tournaments are not for everyone, not just because of what they demand, but cuz some players in certain areas throught the world will never even get the opportunities to attend some tournaments, so to me, based on skill alone, there are quite a few players who are or have been better than a long list of world champions.
Chang Lin beats most players consistently, and he's beaten most of the very best while they were on their prime. Including: Bustamante,Pagulayan,SVB,Biado (just a few months after Biado won WPA W9BC), and many other top taiwanese,filipinos etc..
Many in Asia think matching up Chang is the best there is, and the world should know that in Asia anyone that can bring a big amount of money and a player can get played by Chang, no doubt!
Just like SVB would play anyone rotation pool in the USA.
Who's better? Probably neither.
Thanks, exactly what I surmised. The folks who think improvements in performance are simply due to today's champions being better than yesterday's champions should watch this.
This is a pretty good analysis, imo. I don't think there is anybody consistently winning over everyone else amongst this group. They're pretty close.
It is interesting to look in our database at the aggregate record of each against the other four. SVB, DO, Ko, Chang, and Wu have played 716, 597, 169, 290, and 128 games respectively against the others.
SVB and Wu are the two with winning records. The fact SVB's winning record is over so many games is pretty significant.
SVB 368 to 348
DO 297 to 300
Chang 83 to 86
Ko 132 to 158
Wu 76 to 62
SVB's record is consistent with performing about 9 points above his opponents. This is the expected ballpark. Note that these 716 games for Shane are only 5% or so of the 13,000 games that make up his rating--so his rating is pretty much determined from other games.
I don't know where you got your info. From what I read , Reyes was already a shooter in his teens that's why he got the alias Bata (Kiddo)( Although the uncle has the same name). I don't think you will call a 35 year old man a kiddo.
I believe he meant when Efren came to the US. Who knows how much money he won prior to coming to the US. Most of what Americans have to go on is what he did in the 90s and later.
He was born in 1954. He has won 5 Master of the Table at Derby and that event started when he was 44. Highly doubtful anyone will come close to what he has done at Derby after 44 years of age. You would think his game would have declined in his 50s but he still beat the best who were half his age.
Ok. That's probably it. Reyes' games and matches just started to be recorded when he came to USA around the age of SVB now. I wonder what could have happened if he came to the US during his late teens or early 20's.
Couldn't have said it better... IMO, I'll add a little caveat..
9 ball in tournaments : Earl.. nobody had a top gear like Earl had.
9 ball for the cheese : Jose Parica... the Giant killer.
One pocket : Ronnie Allen.. imagine Ronnie and Efren in their prime playing One
Pocket ?
Last edited:
Tap Tap to the above. Runner knows!
The G.O.A.T. should always be thought of as - pick a player in their prime, take all the money out of your bank account and put it on that player to win it all in any applicable game (8/9/10/1-hole/14.1/banks/3-cushion...).
Do you feel pretty comfortable doing that with Efren? Do you feel the same/less/more with Shane? How about Earl? Sigel? Mosconi? Lassiter?
It gets clearer who's in the conversation. Efren will always be my pick, no human being beats him at anything in his prime when it really counts.
Do you feel pretty comfortable doing that with Efren? Do you feel the same/less/more with Shane? How about Earl? Sigel? Mosconi? Lassiter?
It gets clearer who's in the conversation. Efren will always be my pick, no human being beats him at anything in his prime when it really counts.
I agree, and I too think that Efren has to be a favorite for GOAT. But....Shane has still got a lot of years left in him if he doesn't suffer from burnout.
Maniac
While I totally agree with you on Efren, I don't think 3-cushion should be included. It is an entirely different game because it is played on a different table without pockets. If you include 3-cushion you would also have to include Snooker, Pyramid and a lot of other games played with different equipment.
I don't know if 1P (although it is my favorite game) and Banks should be included either. You could then make an argument that those games are not played in certain areas of the world. Also, I don't think a requirement for GOAT should be limited to certain games or have to include some games as a necessity. A lot of players from 50+ years ago would never have a chance to be considered because 9-Ball etc. were not regularly played then.
I do believe 1P, Banks and 3-cushion should still count for the player's overall greatness but that it should not disqualify another player who never played those games.
I believe greatness shows without being pressed into some frame. Sadly, I don't know enough about the heroes of many years ago like Greenleaf, Cranfield etc. and the readily accessible video material is not really abundant either (and usually of inferior quality). So, I think that someone who had the true oversight of the last 150 years would possibly come to a different conclusion compared to our limited vision of the last 30-50 years.
But my limited view of pool also suggests Efren to be the GOAT, admitting I might have missed someone at least equally worthy from times past.
In that case it would have to be Harold Worst. Don Willis might be second. Lassiter said of him, "If I had to put my life on the line for one shot, I would like Don Willis to shoot it."
