Could Willie Mosconi have been better with Modern Pool Equipment

Was and is Willie Moscioni the GREATEST POOL PLAYER EVER

  • Total voters
    45
  • Poll closed .
PoolSleuth

PoolSleuth

Banned
I am constantly being told of the Famous Straight Pool 526 Ball Run of Willie Mosconi by a gun who is teaching me Straight Pool.

That is over 35 RACKS of Balls in a Row before Willie stopped shooting. He did not miss, but Quit shooting.

I got an interesting Question, besides was Willie to Tired to keep shoot. So why did Willie Quit shooting at the 526 BAll.????

How come with all the Modern Pool Equiptment like:

314 Shafts

Black Dot Shafts

Z Shafts

Ultra Joints

ETC.

Why has no one ever TOP Willie's 526 Ball Record?
 
you need to check your facts......he missed 527

I'll say he was the BEST straight pool tournament player of his time, his record proves that.

I don't think equipment would have done much more for him. He was playing with a Balabushka....can't get much better than that!

There were a handful of players that were in his league like, Cranfeld, Worst, Crane, Balsis, Eufemia etc that made huge runs. I will also say he was backed by Brunswick, so we all knew who he was by their marketing machine...

Gerry
 
Gerry said:
you need to check your facts......he missed 527

I'll say he was the BEST straight pool tournament player of his time, his record proves that.

I don't think equipment would have done much more for him. He was playing with a Balabushka....can't get much better than that!

There were a handful of players that were in his league like, Cranfeld, Worst, Crane, Balsis, Eufemia etc that made huge runs. I will also say he was backed by Brunswick, so we all knew who he was by their marketing machine...

Gerry
Click to expand...

I read, too, that he didn't miss, he just stopped shooting.
 
I could be wrong but I thought I had read that some kid moved in the stands and it distracted him, and he did miss. But regarding the subject, no, i dont think he'd be any better thanks to modern equipment. i'm sure he was using the best cue of his day and not a house cue.
 
Gerry said:
you need to check your facts......he missed 527

I'll say he was the BEST straight pool tournament player of his time, his record proves that.

I don't think equipment would have done much more for him. He was playing with a Balabushka....can't get much better than that!

There were a handful of players that were in his league like, Cranfeld, Worst, Crane, Balsis, Eufemia etc that made huge runs. I will also say he was backed by Brunswick, so we all knew who he was by their marketing machine...

Gerry
Click to expand...

Actually he made the run with his Rambow, the one in the Billiard Encyclopedia.. which goes to show that great players can play with ANYTHING with a tip.

Joe
 
1. I always thought he was the greatest until I saw Reyes.
2. I never had any deflection on the Meucci I shot with
for years until I read about deflection on here. Then I had
to go out & buy me a better cue.
3. I believe that Willie would have missed a lot more if
he knew what we know.



PoolSleuth said:
I am constantly being told of the Famous Straight Pool 526 Ball Run of Willie Mosconi by a gun who is teaching me Straight Pool.

That is over 35 RACKS of Balls in a Row before Willie stopped shooting. He did not miss, but Quit shooting.

I got an interesting Question, besides was Willie to Tired to keep shoot. So why did Willie Quit shooting at the 526 BAll.????

How come with all the Modern Pool Equiptment like:

314 Shafts

Black Dot Shafts

Z Shafts

Ultra Joints

ETC.

Why has no one ever TOP Willie's 526 Ball Record?
Click to expand...
 
Yes I di belive that he is the Greatest!!
Look at his competition. If someone came along that was better competition. (ie a Efren) I belive that Willie had that inate ability to raise he game!! Example I am thinking about is his Stroke (not cue stroke) That had to have a huge impact on his ability but from what I have seen his winning desire was able to over come this and was still world class!! This is what makes him the Best of all Time!!
 
Doesn't Reyes use a laminated shaft of some sort? I mean, I he may not (not like he has to either...), but for some reason, I thinking he shot with a Predator.:confused:
 
I think Mosconi may be in the top 10 best-ever, but absolutely not THE best pool player ever. IMO he didn't have the all-around game repertoire, didn't really play for the cash to speak of (which is the true determining factor in who's best), and played in an era when a lot of the best players (Don Willis for example) didn't enter tournements because the $ was elsewhere. I would, without hesitation, put the following players ahead of Mosconi: Reyes, Parica,Luther Lassiter, Harold Worst,,Ralph Greenleaf (who Minnesota Fats said was the best 14.1 player he ever saw),Mike Sigel,Buddy Hall, Alan Hopkins, Eddie Taylor, and a bunch of players (Strickland, Archer, Jim Rempe,Ed Kelly, Ronnie Allen, Jersey Red, Jimmy Moore, Don Willis, "Rags" Fitzpatrick et al) as his equal, at least. His record of running balls in 14.1 is very much in dispute (reliable sources have repeatedly stated Babe Cranfield ran over 600), was made on a 4X8 table (how many would Willie run on a tough Diamond 4 1/2 X 9), and IMO has remained as "the record" because of his exalted status with Brunswick (who OWNED pool for years) and the billiards hierarchy. I put Mosconi in the same category as Mickey Mantle: when I grew up, Mickey was all we heard of, he was "the man", the best ever, etc. We now know that, while he was a terrific player, he was not the equal of Willie Mays. Sometimes the myth exceeds the reality. While there is no question Mosconi was a stellar player, to say he is the best ever because he ran a lot of balls and won a lot of tournements, diminishes the achievements of the true "best ever" contenders (IMO Reyes and Lassiter). To the original question, I think if Willie could play using today's equipment, he would run less balls but be one of the top 14.1 players (but he wouldn't like facing Hohmann, VanDenBerg, Schmidt and some of the new young guns).
Sorry if I came down a little hard on Willie...hard to make a player debate without doing so.
 
The Mantle reference shows that you're not that young but.....
Mosconi is famous for more than that run. Some of the
people you put in front of him is ludicrous. He woulda
murdded dose guyz. Ask Hopkins if he thinks he could
have beaten Mosconi. Come to think of it. Bad choice.
Hopkins is pretty cocky.


jnav447 said:
I think Mosconi may be in the top 10 best-ever, but absolutely not THE best pool player ever. IMO he didn't have the all-around game repertoire, didn't really play for the cash to speak of (which is the true determining factor in who's best), and played in an era when a lot of the best players (Don Willis for example) didn't enter tournements because the $ was elsewhere. I would, without hesitation, put the following players ahead of Mosconi: Reyes, Parica,Luther Lassiter, Harold Worst,,Ralph Greenleaf (who Minnesota Fats said was the best 14.1 player he ever saw),Mike Sigel,Buddy Hall, Alan Hopkins, Eddie Taylor, and a bunch of players (Strickland, Archer, Jim Rempe,Ed Kelly, Ronnie Allen, Jersey Red, Jimmy Moore, Don Willis, "Rags" Fitzpatrick et al) as his equal, at least. His record of running balls in 14.1 is very much in dispute (reliable sources have repeatedly stated Babe Cranfield ran over 600), was made on a 4X8 table (how many would Willie run on a tough Diamond 4 1/2 X 9), and IMO has remained as "the record" because of his exalted status with Brunswick (who OWNED pool for years) and the billiards hierarchy. I put Mosconi in the same category as Mickey Mantle: when I grew up, Mickey was all we heard of, he was "the man", the best ever, etc. We now know that, while he was a terrific player, he was not the equal of Willie Mays. Sometimes the myth exceeds the reality. While there is no question Mosconi was a stellar player, to say he is the best ever because he ran a lot of balls and won a lot of tournements, diminishes the achievements of the true "best ever" contenders (IMO Reyes and Lassiter). To the original question, I think if Willie could play using today's equipment, he would run less balls but be one of the top 14.1 players (but he wouldn't like facing Hohmann, VanDenBerg, Schmidt and some of the new young guns).
Sorry if I came down a little hard on Willie...hard to make a player debate without doing so.
Click to expand...
 
I do think that Mosconi was a little ahead of his time. Whether or not he would have been any better because of todays equipment.....maybe. Tips are made alot better today and so are the balls, but they had Simonis cloth and the old Brunswick tables are really hard to beat. It's like saying would Mickey Mantle and Joe Dimaggio have been alot better if they played in the modern day major leagues. Yeah equipment means alot, but natural talent means alot too.

Southpaw
 
Last edited:
jnav447 said:
I think Mosconi may be in the top 10 best-ever, but absolutely not THE best pool player ever. IMO he didn't have the all-around game repertoire, didn't really play for the cash to speak of (which is the true determining factor in who's best), and played in an era when a lot of the best players (Don Willis for example) didn't enter tournements because the $ was elsewhere. .
Click to expand...

jnav,
I would have to say that this particular argument is slightly flawed. Mosconi in his autobiography said that he always found it laughable that these "hustlers" would claim that playing for stakes against inferior opposition was an indication of greater skill than someone who must play against an entire roster of champions in tournament play and beat them to win the day.

Besides that fact, the degenerate pool gamblers (like my dad) who hung out with Willie at Kling & Allen's in KC (before his stroke) said he would match up with anyone who wanted action (though serious offers were FEW AND FAR BETWEEN). His standard response to all hustler braggarts was to "put up the money." He did NOT seek out gambling opportunities - he NEVER ducked the few that ever came his way (before his stroke).

When Irving Crane set up his own "World Championship" tournament without Willie; Willie offered to play whoever won at any location for any amount - no takers.

His entire income was from pool tournaments, exhibitions, and endorsements. There was PLENTY of cash (and good income at that) JUST from tournament winnings - if you could win and beat Willie. Most of the locals were smart enough to stay at home.
 
PoolSleuth said:
What did Efrin do to impress you? As I have never seen him or Willie Play before Willie's DEATH:mad:
Click to expand...

Well, I've watched him the last 2 yrs at DCC & he makes
the most incredible shots & runs I have ever seen.
Watching him play one hole is watcking a true artist at work.
Hard to compare the 2 really. Mosconi's best game was
straight pool.
 
Good post, Don. That's what I always heard. NOBODY
wanted to bet with him.


Williebetmore said:
jnav,
I would have to say that this particular argument is slightly flawed. Mosconi in his autobiography said that he always found it laughable that these "hustlers" would claim that playing for stakes against inferior opposition was an indication of greater skill than someone who must play against an entire roster of champions in tournament play and beat them to win the day.

Besides that fact, the degenerate pool gamblers (like my dad) who hung out with Willie at Kling & Allen's in KC (before his stroke) said he would match up with anyone who wanted action (though serious offers were FEW AND FAR BETWEEN). His standard response to all hustler braggarts was to "put up the money." He did NOT seek out gambling opportunities - he NEVER ducked the few that ever came his way (before his stroke).

When Irving Crane set up his own "World Championship" tournament without Willie; Willie offered to play whoever won at any location for any amount - no takers.

His entire income was from pool tournaments, exhibitions, and endorsements. There was PLENTY of cash (and good income at that) JUST from tournament winnings - if you could win and beat Willie. Most of the locals were smart enough to stay at home.
Click to expand...
 
hondo said:
The Mantle reference shows that you're not that young but.....
Mosconi is famous for more than that run. Some of the
people you put in front of him is ludicrous. He woulda
murdded dose guyz. Ask Hopkins if he thinks he could
have beaten Mosconi. Come to think of it. Bad choice.
Hopkins is pretty cocky.
Click to expand...

I don't think Hopkins is all that cocky, seems like a nice fellow to me. Anyway, of the players I put in front of Mosconi (Reyes, Parica, Lassiter, Worst, Greenleaf, Sigel, Hall, Hopkins and Taylor) at 14.1 he would beat Hall, probably beat Reyes, Parica, Worst, may or may not beat the others; he would get crushed by all of them in 9-ball and 1-pocket (except maybe Greenleaf); all but Worst and Greenleaf (who I'm not sure of in this game) would beat him in bank pool; I know Worst beats him in 3C and probably Reyes. The question was: best pool player, not best 14.1 player. To WILLIEBETMORE: well-stated and persuasive...I humbly recant that portion of my rant and applaud your acumen.
 
I think that Willie put up an offer to play Crane or anyone else (1 at a time) an 'Exhibition' match that was $2500.00 out of his pocket back when Crane set up a Championship at Allingers without the BCA. Willie was seriously hot about it, and challenged him.
When he ran 526, he missed a difficult cut shot, but said it was a relief to finally stop.
I think that the players of today are as good as these legends. Pockets that they played on in the past were amazingly big. In his biography, he mentions that when the BCA recognized the 4.5/9' table as the official tournament table- the new pocket sized were 5.5 inches in the corner, and 5 inches for the side pockets. YIKES! How many top players do you think would run high triple digits on those? However... 309 balls on a 5'x10' is an amazing feat as well. He also ran 365 off the break, making the one in the left side pocket, and continuing his run. Awesome! Records like that will never fall with the size of pockets that we have. But if they did, you would have to double the size of the feat, taking in consideration the difficulty in doing so.
 
you're actually asking two different questions....could he have been better, and was he the greatest.

of course he would have been better. faster cloth, better balls = better spreads. table size is almost inconsequential,,,,good ball position means you get closer to the ball.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top