Could You Train Yourself?

[demartini rocks]

when I first started playing it was the college lunchroom which had a coin operated pool table. after a couple of weeks I could poke balls into pockets and fall into natural position. this went on for years.

I entered an amateur tourney and it was "whoa, this is an eye opener." guys were stroking through the ball, drawing, stopping on the dime, follow, running out racks, etc. needless to say I got annihilate.

at the time I was 24. an 18 yr old was working at the pool room. I asked for help and he gave me a heads up on the real basics. I had to get taught by someone younger than me. valuable life lesson there-you can learn from anyone, older or younger.

I learned a majority of pattern play and strategy by collecting a slew of vhs accu-stat tapes. just would anticipate what the player would shoot at which pocket, and how position would be played for the next ball. I learned how to read a table watching these tapes. all the usual 90's suspects-archer, earl, efren, davenport, sigel etc.

so my opinion would be that to elevate to an apa 7 without any dvd's, instruction, books, observing others, and asking questions, the probability is less than 3%. one will be stuck in a rut that cannot be overcome while always in that vacuum.

 

[strmanglr scott]

So you start with your average Joe league player who is an APA 4 level. He has been a 4 for 10 years. He only plays on league night and never practices but plays games here and there between matches.

WITHOUT another player, book, DVD or any other training aid, could this player become a 7 level player with unlimited time to get better on their own?

I say NO WAY. You can not gain new skills without help. You could go up one level but you would level out.

My friends say though trial and error you would always get better.

What say you all? Thoughts...?

When I got back in the game over a decade ago a large part of my time I practiced by myself. I can't say I had zero influence outside of that but v little. I got dramatically better.

Of course if a player doesn't know what they're capable of it's hard to find higher abilities.

 

[PoppaSaun]

There are no shortcuts unless you are an extremely gifted natural talent, a phenom. There is no substitute for hitting a million balls and playing the best players you can for the least amount they will play for.

BS. There is no substitute to proper instruction (either by people or books). Hitting a million balls correctly helps, giving better players money only makes a person better at losing money.

 

[Poolplaya9]

This particular person? Unless they had a change of heart on their interest, no.

But someone who genuinely wanted to learn and loved playing, yes. Though that type of person would seek out alternative ways to get better. So its slightly a moot point.

This is the right answer. Anybody that is sufficiently motivated can learn to be a good player on their own and through observing others. Historically most great players got that way without instruction so to say it can't be done is silly. Good instruction will certainly shorten the learning curve though (and bad instruction will lengthen it).

 

[strmanglr scott]

BS. There is no substitute to proper instruction (either by people or books). Hitting a million balls correctly helps, giving better players money only makes a person better at losing money.

I'll call B.S. there.

I had two major spikes in my learning curve. One as I mentioned above.

Second one came playing one of the best I've ever seen play the game. He offered no instruction. I just racked and racked for him. Guy would T.R. easy 6 out of ten and it was probably more like 8/10. He showed me and I learned what real cb contrlol looked like.

 

[JohnnyOzone]

The player you described has no incentive or compulsion to get better, certainly not to a 7 skill level. So, to answer your question..... no

 

[goettlicher]

Probably not.

You can only teach yourself what you know.

randyg

 

[336Robin]

Testosterone Blindness

Its doubtful that some people would know a systematic way to break things down so as to not waste a lot of time. It would be real easy to hit balls for a long time without an organized approach and never get there. I've seen people that are positive that they know everything but yet they never get any better. Testosterone Blindness.

 

[PoppaSaun]

I'll call B.S. there.

I had two major spikes in my learning curve. One as I mentioned above.

Second one came playing one of the best I've ever seen play the game. He offered no instruction. I just racked and racked for him. Guy would T.R. easy 6 out of ten and it was probably more like 8/10. He showed me and I learned what real cb contrlol looked like.

I didn't say that watching or playing better players wouldn't help. I said that a person doesn't need to lose money betting with better players in order to improve.

 

[philly]

I'll call B.S. there.

I had two major spikes in my learning curve. One as I mentioned above.

Second one came playing one of the best I've ever seen play the game. He offered no instruction. I just racked and racked for him. Guy would T.R. easy 6 out of ten and it was probably more like 8/10. He showed me and I learned what real cb contrlol looked like.

Correct sir. Some people learn from DVD's and books. I am not one of them. Being in the thick of it and unfortunately getting your head beat in shows you the possibilities. The knowledge of the table that a really top player can show you is invaluable. To each his own.

 

[philly]

I didn't say that watching or playing better players wouldn't help. I said that a person doesn't need to lose money betting with better players in order to improve.

Try it. Don't bet more than you can afford of course. You may come away with a different notion. What can a lesser player teach you?

 

[PoppaSaun]

Try it. Don't bet more than you can afford of course. You may come away with a different notion. What can a lesser player teach you?

What would the motivation possibly be? If you are playing better players, you shouldn't win, right?

If you shouldn't win, you have accepted that you are parting with your money, right?

If you accept that you are parting with your money, you are simply paying someone to play with you, right?

I fail to find that more helpful than actual instruction.

Conversely, if you are playing someone at nearly your own level, you might be feeling some pressure to perform because you have a chance at winning. I don't need the money motivation, in fact, I usually underperform because I make more money than almost every other player I know, so I feel guilty about taking their money.

I am internally motivated to become better. The external factors don't help me. I know others like me.

The point is that there are multiple paths. When you say, '...the only way...', I have to call BS.

 

[GoldCrown]

Probably not.

You can only teach yourself what you know.

randyg

The only thing I ever mastered on my own was how to get in trouble.
Otherwise I learn everything from skilled people. That goes for work & hobby.

 

[hang-the-9]

Try it. Don't bet more than you can afford of course. You may come away with a different notion. What can a lesser player teach you?

I don't think just playing with better players can help you or just gambling can help you. I played against some very good players, up to Jayson Shaw, only time I learned was when they explained something to me. You don't learn much watching them shoot table length off the rail shots going 3 rails for shape. Seeing something done does not equal being able to do it. And you can see it done at anytime in the hundreds of videos out there. I've listened to many lessons my son has had with pro players, as well as clinics they put out. In 90% of the cases they explained what I already knew, and the other 10% were things that were not new to me just things I have not bothered to learn like kicking systems. What they can do that I can't is execute the tough stuff a lot more often than I can. That takes practice and mechanics, not just playing with better players or putting money up in a game.

If you play with better players, you need to actually be able to take something from that session. In most cases, that will be just the fact that they are better.

 

[philly]

What would the motivation possibly be? If you are playing better players, you shouldn't win, right?

If you shouldn't win, you have accepted that you are parting with your money, right?

If you accept that you are parting with your money, you are simply paying someone to play with you, right?

I fail to find that more helpful than actual instruction.

Conversely, if you are playing someone at nearly your own level, you might be feeling some pressure to perform because you have a chance at winning. I don't need the money motivation, in fact, I usually underperform because I make more money than almost every other player I know, so I feel guilty about taking their money.

I am internally motivated to become better. The external factors don't help me. I know others like me.

The point is that there are multiple paths. When you say, '...the only way...', I have to call BS.

I never said "the only way." What I said was "to each their own." All I said was "try it" even if it's $10 sets. You will pay for a lesson. Look at it like that. It can be cheaper than a lesson form a top instructor. On the job training so to speak. Sweating it from the rail is different from sweating it at the table.
Out of curiosity, have you been playing long and do you play in poolrooms or bars?

 

[PoppaSaun]

I never said "the only way." What I said was "to each their own." All I said was "try it" even if it's $10 sets. You will pay for a lesson. Look at it like that. It can be cheaper than a lesson form a top instructor. On the job training so to speak. Sweating it from the rail is different from sweating it at the table.
Out of curiosity, have you been playing long and do you play in poolrooms or bars?

"There is no substitute for hitting a million balls and playing the best players you can for the least amount they will play for." -philly

Sounds a lot like you saying that is the only way to me.

I've been playing pool for 27yrs.. I bought a table when I was 13. I've played in bars and pool halls and a university room that had a pool curriculum set up by a national instructor.

I've played plenty of people better than me, many for small amounts of money. I've read many books, watched many instructional videos.

I found that the biggest improvements in my game came from three distinct periods.

First, when I was starting to get more capable, I was at my university and had a group of people who were around the same level. We played a ton and shared ideas and taught each other what we knew, while helping each other figure out what nobody knew.

Second, when I started drinking in bars, I learned confidence by beating lesser players.

Finally, when I found another group of players around my skill level again. I have the most knowledge of them, but again, we discussed things and taught each other.

You asked what you can learn from weaker players. An open minded person can learn from everyone. If a person observes, they can see many interesting things. I've learned a lot from the people I have mentored because I see things they do and figure out why it does or doesn't work.

 

[philly]

"There is no substitute for hitting a million balls and playing the best players you can for the least amount they will play for." -philly

Sounds a lot like you saying that is the only way to me.

I've been playing pool for 27yrs.. I bought a table when I was 13. I've played in bars and pool halls and a university room that had a pool curriculum set up by a national instructor.

I've played plenty of people better than me, many for small amounts of money. I've read many books, watched many instructional videos.

I found that the biggest improvements in my game came from three distinct periods.

First, when I was starting to get more capable, I was at my university and had a group of people who were around the same level. We played a ton and shared ideas and taught each other what we knew, while helping each other figure out what nobody knew.

Second, when I started drinking in bars, I learned confidence by beating lesser players.

Finally, when I found another group of players around my skill level again. I have the most knowledge of them, but again, we discussed things and taught each other.

You asked what you can learn from weaker players. An open minded person can learn from everyone. If a person observes, they can see many interesting things. I've learned a lot from the people I have mentored because I see things they do and figure out why it does or doesn't work.

Like I said. To each their own.

 

[Carolina_Giant]

Honestly, I think it depends on the power of your imagination.


I say this because at one time, there weren't really teachers. There were people who played more than others, and envisioned new strategies, new shots, new patterns, and studied ways to become better players.

However, one key element is needed outside of the self: a true test of skill. This has to be against another person. Whether you compared notes or not, you had to play other people, and to be even more specific, you have to play people who are better than you. Iron sharpens iron.

You could learn a strong foundation, experiment with shots, and maybe you'll gain skill. But with a teacher, a true practice partner, and a slew of tournaments against better players, you have the chance (no guarantee, but a chance) to become great. And you have to be able to apply what you've learned and worked on in different situations.

I tend to think of teachers in much the same way as Morpheus from the Matrix. They can show you the door, but you're the one who has to walk through it. But if your scope of vision does not allow you to see or find the door, then you'll never advance without a teacher. The number of players who can just institutionally play without coaching and get technique and strategy down without a teacher or coach is so low it isn't really worth contemplating in my opinion. But that may not stop people from trying.

I also think many league players (from personal experience meeting them mostly) are a lot like Anikin Skywalker from Attack of the Clones. While he and Obi Wan are chasing the changeling, Obi Wan remarks that if Anikin spent as much time practicing his light saber technique as his wedge he would rival Master Yoda as a swordsman. Anikin fires back that he thought he already did rival Yoda, and Obi Wan counters with "Only in your mind". There are a great many players who think they can play better than they actually can because they can visualize a run out, but the execution isn't there, or they can't visualize a run out on the table because they can't think that far ahead.

 

[Poolplaya9]

The number of players who can just institutionally play without coaching and get technique and strategy down without a teacher or coach is so low it isn't really worth contemplating in my opinion. But that may not stop people from trying.

Probably 95% of level 7 players (which was the level the OP referenced) got there without a teacher or coach so not sure how you can conclude that the number that can do it is exceptionally low when most who have actually done it did it without any coaching. The only thing that keeps people from reaching a level 7 is lack of effort or desire IMO.

 

[Carolina_Giant]

Probably 95% of level 7 players (which was the level the OP referenced) got there without a teacher or coach so not sure how you can conclude that the number that can do it is exceptionally low when most who have actually done it did it without any coaching. The only thing that keeps people from reaching a level 7 is lack of effort or desire IMO.

I was thinking more of a Johnny Archer, Earl Strickland level player who from a young age just picked up a cue and seemed to have natural aptitude for the game and rose to prominent heights.

For the referenced league players, repetition would lead to some improvements, but a lot would depend on being able to consciously absorb as games were going on not only what worked well or best, but why it worked well or best so that the shot could be repeated.

Take banking for example. You can learn to bank balls without memorizing a diamond system. However, this is always by feel and guesswork if you don't learn measuring techniques. This always leaves an element of chance to the shot, but can also lead to less misses due to a lack of confidence. And a factor is also how quickly you can make adjustments on your own without the help of another player or coach watching you.

I'm also a big proponent if you play for center table position and/or two rails and out, you will almost never have a bad shot unless there is a cluster or ball hidden.