But just to prevent misunderstanding -- "I've watched the DVD a couple of times ..." you said.
CTE discussion !
- Thread starter Yoda4962
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But just to prevent misunderstanding -- "I've watched the DVD a couple of times ..." you said.
Pj,
Your compliments represent the fact that you are slowly but reluctantly coming around.
Common sense? You do not get the simple fact that Pros are not moving in on their shot lines by using using a direct visual route to the shot. Pros are almost always visually offset to the shot line. A PIVOT IS NOTHING MORE THAN A TERM TO DESCRIBE A VISUAL SWEEP THAT PROS MAKE AS THEY MOVE INTO THEIR SHOT LINE.
In other words, what a pro is looking at during ball address will not take the ball to a pocket, It's their rotation to center cue ball that completes the picture.
I teach manual pivots to describe visual offsets but I do not recommend manual pivoting for game use.
You likely will not get this but many pros by virtue of the millions of shots they've executed are in connection with a table's geometry as a result of their visual intelligence. That's why pros often can't explain what they do with their aiming.
CTE in its purest form presents to students this unique perception that was not supposed to be and whether you think its common sense or not that perception is the pathway of connecting with something very special. a table's geometry but there must be a rotation to center cue ball first, hence the pivot was born.....so, keep steering everyone away from this special knowledge. That's your job as I see it.
Stan Shuffett
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Thanks, Yoda, for the great review. I do sincerely appreciate your positive comments. (I have been called Yoda at least a couple of times. So now, I am off the hook. lol )
Stan Shuffett
Yes, that's true. The system isn't a mystery to me, and there's no reason for it to be described in mysterious terms. Simple English with no special jargon is enough - if you can accept that it's a system with normal limitations.
pj
chgo
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This isn't true, Stan. I've given the same credit where it's due since the first day I ever spoke about these fraction/pivot systems (many years ago).
I get that very clearly, Stan - it's called "aiming by feel", and everybody does it, system or no. I've also said this repeatedly.
If you present it as "special" knowledge, then "my job" is to point out how it can be understood in normal terms, without the need for special jargon. My purpose isn't to knock your system, but to bring the conversation about it "down to Earth" so more can understand it - and so you'll get fewer confused players with questions like the one I answered.
pj
chgo
May have to give Stan's dvd a look, I know he worked with Burford and helped
him. Although he was already a freakishly talented player..
Pj,
You have softened up over the years concerning CTE. I will make no mistake about that.
And you do not get that perception part very clearly because if your math can't explain it, then to you it's feel. What's unique about CTE is that the perception of "feel" as you call it can now be described in words but not by your math and that's where you are in the corner.
NO, that's what I have done, is to describe CTE perception in normal terms. You could help the cause by learning the system and perhaps one day soon that might happen. As more and more players use CTE PRO ONE successfully, I sort of think that you'll fine it necessary to go ahead and understand CTE in order to be able to continue the discussion.
Stan Shuffett
Mr. Wiley is finding out how difficult it is to covey in words some of his techniques & thoughts. He is doing fairly well but it is not always simple. He also has talked about 'perception' & 'connection'. When he says 'connection'. It is not an actual physical 'connection'. 'Feel' the shot, it is not a actual physical 'feel'.
When it is said to 'be the ball', it is not an actual being of the ball.
I know these 'things' might seem to sound mystical or like witchcraft or some cosmic plasma, but I do not think or believe them to be such. I have not yet been involved enough with CTE to have any 'rightful' opinion. But if it can get me to do 'anything' to cut down on that occasional mis then I'm all for it, even if that is to just get me to FOCUS completely on every shot instead of losing it for that one(1) shot out of_____X_______.
Talk to a footbal player about how he made an interception & they will often say, 'I don't know how I did it I just knew the ball was going there'. l have done that & it was like Deja Vu. I 'saw' it before it happened. I saw it in my minds eye.
Explain that with 2 plus 2 = 4. Obviously one would say you must have subconsciously picked up on some 'key' or 'keys' that told you the QB was going to throw it there. Maybe so, but if I move in that fraction of a second too soon, he can change his mind. Did I read his mind? No, I saw it ahead of time in my minds eye , that may be why I could wait til it was too late for him to change his mind. Mr. Wiley has just started 'talking' about how important it is to see the shot made even before you get down to shoot. Some golfers have been using closed eye visualization for many years. These things are not the physics & math, but one without the other probably means mediocrity, nothing special.
So, if my putting a sliderule or calculator in my back pocket does the same thing, I'm all for that too. This statement is a metafore for the pool physics, math, & bio-mechanics.
Just my drible, not really for discussion.
Sorry if I wasted your time.
Rick
PS Another word I don't think Math has yet put a formula on.........Destiny.
PSS Maybe I've had one beer too many while watching the Rider Cup & rememberng Ben Crenshaw's 'Feeling'.
When it is said to 'be the ball', it is not an actual being of the ball.
I know these 'things' might seem to sound mystical or like witchcraft or some cosmic plasma, but I do not think or believe them to be such. I have not yet been involved enough with CTE to have any 'rightful' opinion. But if it can get me to do 'anything' to cut down on that occasional mis then I'm all for it, even if that is to just get me to FOCUS completely on every shot instead of losing it for that one(1) shot out of_____X_______.
Talk to a footbal player about how he made an interception & they will often say, 'I don't know how I did it I just knew the ball was going there'. l have done that & it was like Deja Vu. I 'saw' it before it happened. I saw it in my minds eye.
Explain that with 2 plus 2 = 4. Obviously one would say you must have subconsciously picked up on some 'key' or 'keys' that told you the QB was going to throw it there. Maybe so, but if I move in that fraction of a second too soon, he can change his mind. Did I read his mind? No, I saw it ahead of time in my minds eye , that may be why I could wait til it was too late for him to change his mind. Mr. Wiley has just started 'talking' about how important it is to see the shot made even before you get down to shoot. Some golfers have been using closed eye visualization for many years. These things are not the physics & math, but one without the other probably means mediocrity, nothing special.
So, if my putting a sliderule or calculator in my back pocket does the same thing, I'm all for that too. This statement is a metafore for the pool physics, math, & bio-mechanics.
Just my drible, not really for discussion.
Sorry if I wasted your time.
Rick
PS Another word I don't think Math has yet put a formula on.........Destiny.
PSS Maybe I've had one beer too many while watching the Rider Cup & rememberng Ben Crenshaw's 'Feeling'.
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A ghostball is a ghostball, you can't see it. Centers and edges are always visable. If you can't see them on a particular day put your stick away and go home.
I've been trying ghostball for thirty years but haven't seen one yet,.
For some reason, this just seems to fit here:
The Lone Ranger and Tonto went camping in the desert. After they got their tent all set up, both men fell sound asleep.
Some hours later, Tonto wakes the Lone Ranger and says, 'Kemo Sabe, look towards sky, what you see? '
'The Lone Ranger replies, 'I see millions of stars.'
'What that tell you?' asked Tonto.
The Lone Ranger ponders for a minute then says, 'Astronomically speaking, it tells me there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets. Astrologically, it tells me that Saturn is in Leo. Time wise, it appears to be approximately a quarter past three in the morning. Theologically, the Lord is all-powerful and we are small and insignificant. Meteorologically, it seems we will have a beautiful day tomorrow.
What does it tell you, Tonto?'
'You dumber than buffalo. It means someone stole the tent.'
The Lone Ranger and Tonto went camping in the desert. After they got their tent all set up, both men fell sound asleep.
Some hours later, Tonto wakes the Lone Ranger and says, 'Kemo Sabe, look towards sky, what you see? '
'The Lone Ranger replies, 'I see millions of stars.'
'What that tell you?' asked Tonto.
The Lone Ranger ponders for a minute then says, 'Astronomically speaking, it tells me there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets. Astrologically, it tells me that Saturn is in Leo. Time wise, it appears to be approximately a quarter past three in the morning. Theologically, the Lord is all-powerful and we are small and insignificant. Meteorologically, it seems we will have a beautiful day tomorrow.
What does it tell you, Tonto?'
'You dumber than buffalo. It means someone stole the tent.'
I guess you can use the ghost ball method sometimes I guess. But when playing in a real of game pool it mite be the furthest from the truth aiming system ever.Its like trying to aim backwards kinda I guess.
Am I making any sense here?
Its impossible to run a table shooting at a ghost.....well unless you aim to miss him I guess.:wink:
The 3 A's - Aiming for Accuracy requires Acceleration
Those points you made are certainly valid and I "real eyes" communication of sensory based concepts will be challenging. The thing Richard Bandler taught me in NLP was to take responsibility for my communication, in other words I'm communicating only as well as I'm understood. So I'm going to take this opportunity to expand on what I mean when I say "connection".
We all experience the world through our senses, but not in the same way,order or the same intensity. Some of us are more Visual, (eyes/vision) some more auditory (ears/sound) and some more kinesthetic (feel/touch)... There's even an order that we will have in our pre shot routine, I personally will see the shot and how the balls need to connect, then I'll hear briefly the sound they'll make contacting each other, then pocketing the ball...THEN I go into an ALL FEELING MODE and Feel the cue ball connecting to the object ball, squeeze the cue slightly to feel what the contact will be like and then get down on the Line of the Shot SLIGHTLY to the Inside of the cue ball, measuring the tip to Exactly where I want to hit and THEN shift my attention to the object ball.
Since I'm still in the "Feeling Mode" I'll only be aware of the object ball's presence, going back and forth amplifying the Feeling of connection, then hitting the cue ball putting my full attention on the object ball and WATCH what part of the pocket the ball is going in. This give me that "Feeling" for the zone of the pocket because I know each time what part it's going in so I can adjust. I don't have to miss to know I need an adjustment this way, if I'm hitting the short side of the pocket I try to deflect it a hair more usually be accelerating.
I can't express enough how important it is to accelerate through the ball for accuracy......The 3 A's - Aiming for Accuracy requires Acceleration. That's an easy way to remember it. It works for me. :wink:
Those points you made are certainly valid and I "real eyes" communication of sensory based concepts will be challenging. The thing Richard Bandler taught me in NLP was to take responsibility for my communication, in other words I'm communicating only as well as I'm understood. So I'm going to take this opportunity to expand on what I mean when I say "connection".
We all experience the world through our senses, but not in the same way,order or the same intensity. Some of us are more Visual, (eyes/vision) some more auditory (ears/sound) and some more kinesthetic (feel/touch)... There's even an order that we will have in our pre shot routine, I personally will see the shot and how the balls need to connect, then I'll hear briefly the sound they'll make contacting each other, then pocketing the ball...THEN I go into an ALL FEELING MODE and Feel the cue ball connecting to the object ball, squeeze the cue slightly to feel what the contact will be like and then get down on the Line of the Shot SLIGHTLY to the Inside of the cue ball, measuring the tip to Exactly where I want to hit and THEN shift my attention to the object ball.
Since I'm still in the "Feeling Mode" I'll only be aware of the object ball's presence, going back and forth amplifying the Feeling of connection, then hitting the cue ball putting my full attention on the object ball and WATCH what part of the pocket the ball is going in. This give me that "Feeling" for the zone of the pocket because I know each time what part it's going in so I can adjust. I don't have to miss to know I need an adjustment this way, if I'm hitting the short side of the pocket I try to deflect it a hair more usually be accelerating.
I can't express enough how important it is to accelerate through the ball for accuracy......The 3 A's - Aiming for Accuracy requires Acceleration. That's an easy way to remember it. It works for me. :wink:
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Someone see a ghost?
If you do happen to see a ghost CLICK THIS LINK FOR HELP "They're here, they're real and they're mean":rotflmao:
I guess you can use the ghost ball method sometimes I guess. But when playing in a real of game pool it mite be the furthest from the truth aiming system ever.Its like trying to aim backwards kinda I guess.
Am I making any sense here?
Its impossible to run a table shooting at a ghost.....well unless you aim to miss him I guess.:wink:
If you do happen to see a ghost CLICK THIS LINK FOR HELP "They're here, they're real and they're mean":rotflmao:
CJ's "Connection"
CJ,
That was a very good 'read'. I almost smelled the smoke. I must be sound deficient though, as I never pre-hear the balls & my wife is always asking me, "Are you listening to me?'
Thanks again for all of your Champion's insights.
RJ
PS I like RJ better. Richard, then Rick, I think it's time for RJ. Besides, it's quicker to type than Rick, & sounds more classy & sophistocated.
CJ,
That was a very good 'read'. I almost smelled the smoke. I must be sound deficient though, as I never pre-hear the balls & my wife is always asking me, "Are you listening to me?'
Thanks again for all of your Champion's insights.
RJ
PS I like RJ better. Richard, then Rick, I think it's time for RJ. Besides, it's quicker to type than Rick, & sounds more classy & sophistocated.
I hate knocking the ghost system because it does have some merit to it.
Every time i hear someone say I use the the ghost ball system I picture them trying to find a spot 1" 1/8 behind the ob.This mite not be the case but could u imagine doing this on every shot.lol It would take a special person to do it maybe someone that even talks to ghost.:grin:
I understand your point but consider this. In baseball a ball is hit to the outfield. The outfielder chases it down & gets it. He turns to throw it home. He does not throw it directly to the catcher waiting at home plate. He throws it to a point in the sky.
In football, a receiver is streaking down the sideline. The QB drops back, maybe looks the other way & pumpfakes, & turns & throws, not directly at the running receiver but a point in the sky so the ball comes down to an exact point where only the receiver & not the defended can catch he ball.
The Human brain & mind can do amazing things in a split second.
I first started with ghost ball type alignment but quickly went to fractional overlap, After 46 yrs I'm not sure what I do now but it is probably a bit of both. My minds eye probably gauges the position of the ghost ball & sees the fractional overlap contact point.
Just my nickel rant.
Rick
Once again, I must point out that NO ONE that has presented a system for learning here has EVER said that a person will not have practice to make it work.
Why is it that folks continually get hung up on this? HAMB has to be present for anyone to get better at this game, regardless of how they aim. Thats what makes any system work so well, practice using the system.
I am a mere novice at the game, and I do not feel that my stroke is consistent enough for me to try and tackle one of these systems yet. The time is better spent getting the stroke down properly. Yet I still learn from reading about these systems, a little here and a little there. Surely if I can glean something from these discussions at this early stage of my pool development, than more accomplished players can too. If they allow themselves to.
But we ALL have to practice to get better. And the aiming systems guys tell you that, too. So stop railing against them with the thought that they are trying to sell the ability to skip the hard work, cuz it simply isn't true.
This isn't really true either. The fact is system advocates have slowly come around to admitting that their systems aren't "robotically precise", so the arguments over that have died down, allowing some of the benefits of the systems to be more prominently discussed. The benefits were always acknowledged, even long before I ever came to AzB - they just got drowned out by the arguments about reality vs. wishful thinking.
pj
chgo
Pj,
Your posture was and is anti CTE. You simply do not understand Center to Edge Aiming. To you, it's impossible that Hal could have discovered something special about perception that can not be reconciled with math.
You are the representative of reality only in the area of math and science but your exploration of reality has stopped short as you see no reason to tap into the world of perception as it relates to pool.
Stan Shuffett
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