Surprising that Roger Long's third CTE column hasn't generated much response.
For those who missed it:
http://www.azbilliards.com/rogerlong/roger6.php
For those who missed it:
http://www.azbilliards.com/rogerlong/roger6.php
CTE Marketing
- Thread starter Dead Crab
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Does it deserve a response ?
Everyone has a opinion and I guess that's his. The amount of response may be directly proportional to the number of people who agree with him.
When I have that really long hard shot, I always use CTE and love hearing, "wow, good shot". May be that Roger just doesn't get it or truly doesn't understand how the system works. He says he does and of course he has a column on the front page of AZ Billiards so he must be a trusted authority. RIGHT ?
Everyone has a opinion and I guess that's his. The amount of response may be directly proportional to the number of people who agree with him.
When I have that really long hard shot, I always use CTE and love hearing, "wow, good shot". May be that Roger just doesn't get it or truly doesn't understand how the system works. He says he does and of course he has a column on the front page of AZ Billiards so he must be a trusted authority. RIGHT ?
So, it's all just a huge marketing tool conspiracy? lol Thanks for the link. Maybe his next article will be about 9/11 or who really shot JFK??
Seriously, does he really expect anyone to go with the story that Hal one day 20 years or more ago said to himself..."I'm gonna come up with an aiming system and market it all the way into the Hall of Fame"??? :rotflmao1:
Seriously, does he really expect anyone to go with the story that Hal one day 20 years or more ago said to himself..."I'm gonna come up with an aiming system and market it all the way into the Hall of Fame"??? :rotflmao1:
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A very nice positive articule. Roger represented both sides quite well.
Marketing comes under several persuasions and is the main stand of the American sales force. Because of Marketing, I have many satisfied customers and Pool School will continue to flourish. (prosper, thanks canwin)
Thanks Roger
SPF=randyg (that's Marketing by the way)
Marketing comes under several persuasions and is the main stand of the American sales force. Because of Marketing, I have many satisfied customers and Pool School will continue to flourish. (prosper, thanks canwin)
Thanks Roger
SPF=randyg (that's Marketing by the way)
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Maybe CTE is like believing in God, or a creator. Some believe, and some do not, but in the end it is a personaly choice, and you are free to change you mind any time you wish.
Randy,
I think Roger meant "marketing" to be a derogatory term - not a benefit as you suggest. He said that CTE "IS" marketing (and that's all), implying that there is no guts or format to the system -- it's all hype.
Dave
I agree, Spidey.
I do not understand CTE well enough to support it or criticize it. I remain interested, open-minded, and cautiously skeptical.
I have ordered my $45 copy of the DVD because the written descriptions posted on this forum have fallen short of improving my understanding.
Maybe I have been duped, but I do not agree with Roger that CTE is and always has been designed to be a marketing tool. I think Hal Houle has been generous with his time and information and the production of the DVD is to attempt to get the information to more people in a better medium than the written word.
I must assume that there are production costs that Mr. Houle risks if no one buys the DVD. I have no problem if he makes a little profit for having taken that risk. (I am a capitalist! Profit is the reward for innovation and risk.)
I have ordered my $45 copy of the DVD because the written descriptions posted on this forum have fallen short of improving my understanding.
Maybe I have been duped, but I do not agree with Roger that CTE is and always has been designed to be a marketing tool. I think Hal Houle has been generous with his time and information and the production of the DVD is to attempt to get the information to more people in a better medium than the written word.
I must assume that there are production costs that Mr. Houle risks if no one buys the DVD. I have no problem if he makes a little profit for having taken that risk. (I am a capitalist! Profit is the reward for innovation and risk.)
I have no idea what STANS DVD will show, but SpiderWebComm, and JBCase put out a lot of FREE Information about CTE. I worked with what I saw, and got Positive Results in relationship to time spent.
So if Stans did unlock CTE so everyone can get the information, it is something I could consider buying after the holiday are over.
I am wait for the early buyers to review Stan's DVD.
So if Stans did unlock CTE so everyone can get the information, it is something I could consider buying after the holiday are over.
I am wait for the early buyers to review Stan's DVD.
Ooops. You are right. I ordered Stan's video. I had Hal Houle in my brain after reading the article. Thanks for the correction.
Everything I said about Hal Houle goes for Stan. Sorry Stan.
If Roger had any clue to how many emails, PMs and phone calls I've taken over the last few years to help complete strangers for FREE -- he'd recant his conclusion that it's all about marketing. At one time last year, I had to promise my gf that I wouldn't take anymore calls because it was interfering with our time together.
If I ever work with someone face to face (which is RARE), I want to be paid for my time plain and simple. Since Roger doesn't work or give lessons for free--- that's hardly marketing. If Stan INVESTS a ton of money into production costs to make sure the quality of his video is good and charges people for the DVD to offset his initial investment, that's not marketing---- that's called basic business (unless Stan was a gazillionaire).
Since Roger doesn't work for free, give lessons for free or do "pro shop" work for free---- he's a hypocrite to call those who are trying to also make a living in the pool industry "marketers" who don't have knowledge or content. In my opinion, Stan isn't even "making a living" with these DVDs... he's merely offsetting his costs and time invested. If he does, good for him - that's America.
If Roger couldn't extrapolate enough info from AZB to figure out CTE - then maybe he should have PAID for a private lesson --- which is what he's also selling to his peeps in Arizona.
Great conclusion, Roger. Brilliant write-up. What is CTE.... drum roll...."MARKETING!" You could have at least copied some content from Dr. Dave's website and made a more technical conclusion than that. Not to prod--- but it was totally what I was expecting though when I heard Roger was writing a CTE article when he prob has 1 hour invested on the table with it.
If I ever work with someone face to face (which is RARE), I want to be paid for my time plain and simple. Since Roger doesn't work or give lessons for free--- that's hardly marketing. If Stan INVESTS a ton of money into production costs to make sure the quality of his video is good and charges people for the DVD to offset his initial investment, that's not marketing---- that's called basic business (unless Stan was a gazillionaire).
Since Roger doesn't work for free, give lessons for free or do "pro shop" work for free---- he's a hypocrite to call those who are trying to also make a living in the pool industry "marketers" who don't have knowledge or content. In my opinion, Stan isn't even "making a living" with these DVDs... he's merely offsetting his costs and time invested. If he does, good for him - that's America.
If Roger couldn't extrapolate enough info from AZB to figure out CTE - then maybe he should have PAID for a private lesson --- which is what he's also selling to his peeps in Arizona.
Great conclusion, Roger. Brilliant write-up. What is CTE.... drum roll...."MARKETING!" You could have at least copied some content from Dr. Dave's website and made a more technical conclusion than that. Not to prod--- but it was totally what I was expecting though when I heard Roger was writing a CTE article when he prob has 1 hour invested on the table with it.
I agree Dave.. If Roger did not intend it to be derogatory towards CTE, he doesn't write very well. He certainly came across that way IMHO..
For the record Dave has generously spent time with me on CTE and never charged me a dime. Hal Houle has never charged me a dime for his time.
I kinda liked this sentence from Roger "I recently recommended to one of my students that he purchase the new DVD when it comes out. I did that because this gentleman has tried many different methods, but still struggles to find the correct aim line on a consistent basis." I'd have to wonder about being one of Roger's students if he couldn't help me pocket balls. Then he tells the guy to buy a dvd about an aiming method that he doesn't even know how to teach.
I want to thank my instructor for teaching me how to pocket balls on a consistent basis.
Thank you very much Mr. Stan Shuffet. Your instructions have been of great value to my game.
P.S. you too Spidey, you started me on this.
I want to thank my instructor for teaching me how to pocket balls on a consistent basis.
Thank you very much Mr. Stan Shuffet. Your instructions have been of great value to my game.
P.S. you too Spidey, you started me on this.
I believe that you are correct. I was just trying to be nice, possibly a little viscous.
SPF=randyg
Marketing: the total of activities involved in the transfer of goods from the producer or seller to the consumer or buyer, including advertising, shipping, storing, and selling.
"Marketing" isn't necessarily ONLY about money. For example, ideas can be marketed in a forum--which is itself a "market" for ideas.
So, marketing is everything about a transferable entity (in some kind of marketplace) that ISN'T about the creation, development, or production of the entity itself. Since CTE is nothing of substance (it's a delusion put forth as a system that pretends to produce a significant and accurate result), then the only thing it CAN BE is...some form of marketing.
Everybody agrees: Hal Houle was the first person to talk about (what is now called) CTE; and there's no doubt that even exclusive to Hal, what was being promoted was continually changing. Therefore, it was NEVER something clearly definable, it was NEVER "any...thing." It was always PURE marketing, and NOTHING of substance.
But it always had at least a little bit of a "hook." Even though it didn't exist or do anything, at least some people still WANTED IT (and there are LOTS of such products--I've continually mentioned astrology as an example. Certainly pet rocks is another famous example)! So now, a bit of marketing has FINALLY reached the marketplace--and money will start to change hands (before that, it's only currency was in ideas, and the only reward it could supply it's marketer was "fame" as the originator or promoter of a useful idea).
What I find most fascinating about the whole thing is that the MORE CLEARLY WORTHLESS an idea, the more likely it is to gather at least a small group of fanatics. CTE claims to be an "aiming system" to put balls in pockets--without the requirement to note where the pockets are. NO IDEA could be more ridiculous, or have less value. Yet....it has found some small marketing traction.
When ideas have some small bit of merit, it's easy to lose interest because the SMALLNESS of the merit is easily perceived--and people don't want to collect a SMALL bit of value. But when something has NO MERIT it sort of takes on an allure. The thing has to be IMBUED with the personality of the user, for its merit to shine through
If things clearly have no merit, yet somehow gain marketing traction, then it must be (people unconsciously conclude) because it contains some MAGIC--that it's BEYOND ordinary thinking and utility.
It's intersting: a useless idea somehow shows marketing TRACTION in the idea stage...and the MARKETING part LIVES, even though the idea is useless. And so now somebody will make a meager buck off it--even though it has no substance...
If I didn't know better, I might believe that the ENTIRE CTE FIASCO was invented by an MBA grad student as his thesis project in marketing...
Either that....or it was actually L Ron Hubbard who invented CTE!
"Marketing" isn't necessarily ONLY about money. For example, ideas can be marketed in a forum--which is itself a "market" for ideas.
So, marketing is everything about a transferable entity (in some kind of marketplace) that ISN'T about the creation, development, or production of the entity itself. Since CTE is nothing of substance (it's a delusion put forth as a system that pretends to produce a significant and accurate result), then the only thing it CAN BE is...some form of marketing.
Everybody agrees: Hal Houle was the first person to talk about (what is now called) CTE; and there's no doubt that even exclusive to Hal, what was being promoted was continually changing. Therefore, it was NEVER something clearly definable, it was NEVER "any...thing." It was always PURE marketing, and NOTHING of substance.
But it always had at least a little bit of a "hook." Even though it didn't exist or do anything, at least some people still WANTED IT (and there are LOTS of such products--I've continually mentioned astrology as an example. Certainly pet rocks is another famous example)! So now, a bit of marketing has FINALLY reached the marketplace--and money will start to change hands (before that, it's only currency was in ideas, and the only reward it could supply it's marketer was "fame" as the originator or promoter of a useful idea).
What I find most fascinating about the whole thing is that the MORE CLEARLY WORTHLESS an idea, the more likely it is to gather at least a small group of fanatics. CTE claims to be an "aiming system" to put balls in pockets--without the requirement to note where the pockets are. NO IDEA could be more ridiculous, or have less value. Yet....it has found some small marketing traction.
When ideas have some small bit of merit, it's easy to lose interest because the SMALLNESS of the merit is easily perceived--and people don't want to collect a SMALL bit of value. But when something has NO MERIT it sort of takes on an allure. The thing has to be IMBUED with the personality of the user, for its merit to shine through
If things clearly have no merit, yet somehow gain marketing traction, then it must be (people unconsciously conclude) because it contains some MAGIC--that it's BEYOND ordinary thinking and utility.It's intersting: a useless idea somehow shows marketing TRACTION in the idea stage...and the MARKETING part LIVES, even though the idea is useless. And so now somebody will make a meager buck off it--even though it has no substance...
If I didn't know better, I might believe that the ENTIRE CTE FIASCO was invented by an MBA grad student as his thesis project in marketing...
Either that....or it was actually L Ron Hubbard who invented CTE!
Marketing: the total of activities involved in the transfer of goods from the producer or seller to the consumer or buyer, including advertising, shipping, storing, and selling.
"Marketing" isn't necessarily ONLY about money. For example, ideas can be marketed in a forum--which is itself a "market" for ideas.
So, marketing is everything about a transferable entity (in some kind of marketplace) that ISN'T about the creation, development, or production of the entity itself. Since CTE is nothing of substance (it's a delusion put forth as a system that pretends to produce a significant and accurate result), then the only thing it CAN BE is...some form of marketing.
Everybody agrees: Hal Houle was the first person to talk about (what is now called) CTE; and there's no doubt that even exclusive to Hal, what was being promoted was continually changing. Therefore, it was NEVER something clearly definable, it was NEVER "any...thing." It was always PURE marketing, and NOTHING of substance.
But it always had at least a little bit of a "hook." Even though it didn't exist or do anything, at least some people still WANTED IT (and there are LOTS of such products--I've continually mentioned astrology as an example. Certainly pet rocks is another famous example)! So now, a bit of marketing has FINALLY reached the marketplace--and money will start to change hands (before that, it's only currency was in ideas, and the only reward it could supply it's marketer was "fame" as the originator or promoter of a useful idea).
What I find most fascinating about the whole thing is that the MORE CLEARLY WORTHLESS an idea, the more likely it is to gather at least a small group of fanatics. CTE claims to be an "aiming system" to put balls in pockets--without the requirement to note where the pockets are. NO IDEA could be more ridiculous, or have less value. Yet....it has found some small marketing traction.
When ideas have some small bit of merit, it's easy to lose interest because the SMALLNESS of the merit is easily perceived--and people don't want to collect a SMALL bit of value. But when something has NO MERIT it sort of takes on an allure. The thing has to be IMBUED with the personality of the user, for its merit to shine through
It's intersting: a useless idea somehow shows marketing TRACTION in the idea stage...and the MARKETING part LIVES, even though the idea is useless. And so now somebody will make a meager buck off it--even though it has no substance...
If I didn't know better, I might believe that the ENTIRE CTE FIASCO was invented by an MBA grad student as his thesis project in marketing...
Either that....or it was actually L Ron Hubbard who invented CTE!
Oh my lord, are you back already?
Here's another way to define marketing based on Roger's article:
Player "X" approaches Roger for a pool lesson. The student has a hard time understanding what Roger is trying to explain and gets frustrated. In response, Roger recommends to the student that he/she buy a DVD that, in Roger's opinion, is all "marketing" and full of shit and sends him/her away.
So, for all those interested in buying Roger's pool lessons... read carefully in how he's marketing himself.
On the other hand, "marketing" is also evident with some well established instructors and their methods. For example, the SPF instructors market their method, as does the BCA with the certified instructor program, Joe Tucker demonstrates his products along with a lot of free information (that would be marketing), and Dave Alciatore makes use of free video clips to promote his DVD.
The real test comes about a year from now. Will the results match the hype? Does the DVD become a coaster or a must-have? About once a year I watch my Jimmy Reid DVD, every few months I review one of the VEPS discs, and I have seen my Play Better Pool DVDs a few times, as well.
I've also got a heavily marketed coaster, and it would be unfortunate for all involved in the pool instruction business if marketing becomes the dominant force. The product needs to match the hype.
Exactly right. The test is a year from now when the people who bought the video report back. JoeyA is already beginning to do so. Petey has - and I'm sure others will as well. Pool is outcome-based and the DVD will be rated by whether or not the net outcome is better after the video vs. before (assuming they work at it and practice). Nobody is saying the DVD will turn someone into a pro overnight... it's not a magic pill.
Dave
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