CTE use by pros on live streams

[sfleinen]

I use cte and really couldnt care less if anyone else does or doesnt, thats his or her's own option

And you shouldn't care, either. You should be using what works for *you*. If that's CTE, bravo to you -- ingrain it, now, where you don't have to think about it. That's my point.

but im just going to say this "explain to me what you have clarified other than giving your opinion?"

Wasn't it clear? Dave asked me a question to clarify whether I thought pros weren't using CTE, and I answered it in three parts. Yes, it's my opinion -- but 1.) he asked for my opinion, and 2.) I happen to rub shoulders with some pros, so I have a little insight here.

Look back at the history of the cte threads on this board and follow them to this post, you will notice something. A year from now earl may come out of the closet and say he has used cte his whole career ... im just saying.

I'm sorry if what I write doesn't supply extra pom-poms for the cheerleading squad, but I'm just sharing what I *know*. It's not conjecture or posturing, like some of these CTE threads that you've invited me to "follow to here." And I have, if you'll check. I usually only jump in when the pom-pom squad gets a little out of hand with the cheerleading and sales pitches.

If Earl comes out of the closet and says he used CTE his whole career, so what? It would merely be the aiming system of his choice. But that's not what made Earl famous. His character, hard work, dedication, and in general making the game look ridiculously easy and second nature, is. Oh, and winning a championship or two dozen along the way helps, too. Earl made Earl, not CTE or any other aiming system.

It's like you're trying to say, "watch -- you'll see! CTE is the best-kept secret, and is the wave of the future! Catch the wave!" <yawn> That stake has been in the ground for 15 years. Wake me when a REAL revolution occurs that changes the face of our sport, like, oh, I don't know -- another TCOM-caliber movie comes out that gets people out in droves playing pool?

-Sean

 

[champ2107]

ok im good with that

 

[cookie man]

Hi Dave!

I am not saying "no pros would ever be using CTE." What I am saying are the following:

1. Whatever "system" the pros used to initially learn to aim, has long since been absorbed into their subconscious. Aiming is not a conscious concern anymore. I dare say that if you were to talk up to any pro (and I'm not talking the CTE guidon bearers like Stevie Moore, Matt Krah, et al.), and then ask him/her how he/she aims the shot, you most likely will get a pause -- they might have to think about the question. And then they might say, "I don't know, I aim 'here'." Or, they might explain to you variations of CP-to-CP aiming, ghostball, Back-of-ball, CTE, ferrule/shaft aiming, etc. The point is, the question itself causes them to have to think about the answer. It's not a conscious concern anymore.
   
   
2. With rare exceptions (e.g. Cowboy Jimmy Moore, Robb Saez), you won't find signs that a pro is pivoting. Are the pros you don't see using a perceptible pivot, instead "air pivoting"? Perhaps. But will you, as an observer, know it? I think not. It will be so natural to them that it'd been absorbed into his/her pre-shot routine long ago. And I dare say that at this level of play, the "steps" for CTE have long since been dissolved into their subconscious that that particular pro now uses a catalog-based aiming system. You know it as "feel." See the shot, see the solution instantly, line up on the shot, execute it. The problem is that people want to end-run the hard work it takes to become a great player. They want cheat codes to aiming, thinking it will help them bypass or end-run many years of hard work and experience to becoming a great player. Before I get into this one too heavy, let me leave it as the meat for the next bullet.
   
   
3. That aiming system threads are out of control. They're almost sublime, in fact; like a government conspiracy. The aiming system "X Files" with Mulder and Scully -- the "truth is out there." I mean, look at the title of *this* very thread as an example. "CTE use by pros on live streams." E.g.: "by golly, we're going to find evidence that a pro is using CTE if it kills us! Whoa, what was that movement he/she just made with the cue? Could that be... a pivot? CTE! CTE! CTE!" Come on folks, learn all you can (learn everything, in fact), find something that works for you, and WORK AT IT! Develop it. Practice it. Ingrain it. Make it second nature to where you don't have to think about it anymore. There are no shortcuts, no panaceas, no methods to end-running years of hard work and practice to becoming a good player. You have to put the work into it. And, as I alluded to in the previous bullet, I think *THAT* is the very problem. People think there's an "aiming system holy grail" out there, a "cheat code," if you will, that if they take the time to learn it, they'll magically pocket balls from all over the table, and... "their search is over -- they will be a 'player' to be reckoned with" without all the hard work. Sorry folks, there is no Santa Claus in this regard. Ya gots to put the work in to get to the level you want.

I hope that helps clarify it,
-Sean

Sean 1. Although stevie and matt will answer cte I think they would also say it is not a conscious concern anymore. I think pro's that say they don't know they just do it is a little suspicious, they should have some understanding of what they are looking at.
2. For the most part pro's pivoting won't be detectable but I do know someone with a video library of alot of pro's pivoting, not all the time do they pivot but on some key shots they do. A pro air-pivoting would be virtually undetectable. I don't think anyone wants to do an end run on the hard work but I will say cte gets my visuals in line pretty easily.
3. I think things said in part 3 should start to be not said. I don't see cte users saying holy grail, cheat code, this is the greatest, everyone should use it(not that it hasn't been implyed in the past, just time to move on). I will say most people should at least try it, who knows it might make aiming a little easier for some. If it does their is still alot of work to always do, it doesn't make it an end all shortcut. If you ever become satisfied with your pool game you might as well quit imo. I learn things on AZ every week, its ingraining them into your subconscious so you remember to do them while playing that is the hard part.
In the snooker aim video on the straight in shot, when he initially plants his right foot I can tell you he can see the cte perfectly. I don't think he even considers looking at it, just saying its there with his body in the correct position. He gets his body correct from years of experience, and I get there from sighting the cte and my body following my visuals. I did it his way for 20 years and now I'm doing it a little different and my benefit of cte is it's easier to get me aligned and gives me concrete visuals instead of relying on past memories. I am still playing in the subconscious just starting with an exact visual everytime. Yes it makes aiming easier, did I get better-yes, am I great-no, do I still have alot to work on-yes. Is there alot in pool that's easy-not on most days.
Oh and Sean, leave Santa Claus alone, everyone knows he starts delivering in the center and then rotates (pivots) to the edges, but we all get our presents.
P.S. Sean, Your points on pool and the subconscious are very good and the only way you can be playing when in the zone.

 

[BasementDweller]

Folks:

....The hand is NOT a mechanically perfect device for delivering a cue in a straight line.

If you "look back there" and watch your grip hand when stroking the cue back and forth, you'll see a LOT of complex operations going on back there related to the fingers opening and closing, perhaps the rear fingers sliding up off the cue and sliding back onto it, etc. If I were to design a cradle to hold the cue to deliver it in a straight line, I couldn't think of a worse design than the human hand. I'd instead opt for a simple hinge that only allows forward and backward motion; it won't allow any side-to-side motion of the cue, nor involve any side-motion of the device itself (e.g. as what happens when your rear fingers slide off and back onto the cue)......

-Sean

This is why I'm about to completely revolutionize the game of pool. Late last night after reading your post, I went to work in the wood shop. I cut off all handles on my shovels and put them on the butt end of my cues. Now no more of this side-to-side wrist action for me. I now hold my cues like a girl pitches a softball. I now have the best wrist action in the game. I REALLY CAN'T MISS A BALL*! Now I only have to combine this with CTE, then I REALLY REALLY won't be able to miss**.


- Chris
* By "REALLY CAN'T MISS" I mean I only miss every 4th shot
** By "REALLY REALLY CAN't MISS" I mean I only miss every 3.97 shots.

 

[sfleinen]

Sean 1. Although stevie and matt will answer cte I think they would also say it is not a conscious concern anymore. I think pro's that say they don't know they just do it is a little suspicious, they should have some understanding of what they are looking at.

Hi Dave! Thanks for taking the time for an in-depth reply. Your points are much appreciated. I'm glad that you agree that the pros -- regardless and irrespective of what aiming system they use (CTE, GB, BOB, what-have-you) -- don't think about aiming anymore.

To elaborate on those pros that answer "I don't know, I just aim 'here'" -- that could be an outgrowth of ghostball, called the back-of-ball (BOB) or what I like to refer to as the "eclipsing" technique (which I personally grew into). They just might not know what it's called -- they just know that when they get "behind the shot" and look at the line to the pocket, they know to shoot the cue ball "there." I know a lot of shortstop-level road players that explain it this way, and I've encountered a few pros that do as well. They don't bother reading books, or signing on to computers, reading message boards, or what-not. They play all the time, and commit shots to memory.

2. For the most part pro's pivoting won't be detectable but I do know someone with a video library of alot of pro's pivoting, not all the time do they pivot but on some key shots they do. A pro air-pivoting would be virtually undetectable. I don't think anyone wants to do an end run on the hard work but I will say cte gets my visuals in line pretty easily.

And that's great! CTE works for you, and you found a visuals-alignment method that's consistent, repeatable, and reliable. You can't ask for more. Well, I take that back; you can. Committing it to memory, where you don't have to think about CTE or its steps -- where it just comes naturally and you sink into the zone with ease -- that's the ultimate goal.

As for pros "visually" (read: perceptibly) pivoting, I stand by what I say. Other than Cowboy Jimmy Moore or Robb Saez, you'd be hard-pressed to find a pro that pivots on a consistent basis. Not every shot, but predictably (say, one out of three or four shots). And not this "I'm uncomfortable with my stance, so let me reach over the table a bit more and the cue moves a bit" one-time action being mistaken for a "pivot." And not the "compensation for a hitch in one's own stroke" (e.g. side-of-grip-hand heel-bump on the cue) either.

3. I think things said in part 3 should start to be not said. I don't see cte users saying holy grail, cheat code, this is the greatest, everyone should use it(not that it hasn't been implyed in the past, just time to move on).

I agree. Please don't forget that on *both* sides, damage is done, and folks may be sensitive to certain words, innuendos, and allusions. So unless a certain word, phrase, innuendo, or allusion is made that needs to be addressed and quelled, I'll stop using them.

I will say most people should at least try it, who knows it might make aiming a little easier for some. If it does their is still alot of work to always do, it doesn't make it an end all shortcut. If you ever become satisfied with your pool game you might as well quit imo. I learn things on AZ every week, its ingraining them into your subconscious so you remember to do them while playing that is the hard part.

Yup, I 100% agree here as well. I mentioned earlier about learning everything you can get your hands on. Learn and absorb everything. Knowledge sometimes comes from surprising places. I learn things on AZB almost every day as well. It's just the natural growth of being a serious student of our sport. I have, and will continue to do so, learn CTE, if not for the pure science-minded satisfaction aspect. I want to know how it works. Why it works. What problem(s) is it addressing in certain people that longer-established aiming methods don't? I've Stan's DVD, and will be reviewing it as my schedule permits. And I owe you guys an honest review, as I promised!

In the snooker aim video on the straight in shot, when he initially plants his right foot I can tell you he can see the cte perfectly. I don't think he even considers looking at it, just saying its there with his body in the correct position. He gets his body correct from years of experience, and I get there from sighting the cte and my body following my visuals. I did it his way for 20 years and now I'm doing it a little different and my benefit of cte is it's easier to get me aligned and gives me concrete visuals instead of relying on past memories. I am still playing in the subconscious just starting with an exact visual everytime. Yes it makes aiming easier, did I get better-yes, am I great-no, do I still have alot to work on-yes. Is there alot in pool that's easy-not on most days.

Which snooker video are you referring to? If it's this one:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iP4RvZJMPd8

...although it's a decent video (and I've the full "Snooker Coaching" DVD that this video snippet came from), there are some better ones. For one thing, the coach in that video isn't using pure snooker technique. His technique is more pool-like. Look at the placement angle of his feet -- they aren't "into" the shot, but 45 degrees like a pool player. And watch him rotate his hips out and across the shot -- like a pool player.

These videos (below), IMHO, are much better at describing the line of aim, at least from an alignment point-of-view:

Stance on the Line of Aim (video quality is so-so, but shows the proper foot placement on the line of aim to ensure good head/eye alignment):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gomyn3Z-de8

Part 1 of 2 for Line of Aim (great point-of-view):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mL3NOn-A9Bs

Part 2 of 2 for Line of Aim (this one is the best):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kLjSlHr38dc

Oh and Sean, leave Santa Claus alone, everyone knows he starts delivering in the center and then rotates (pivots) to the edges, but we all get our presents.
P.S. Sean, Your points on pool and the subconscious are very good and the only way you can be playing when in the zone.

I thought Santa just rolls, never mind pivots or rotates.

Thanks for the kind words about my notes on leveraging the subconscious. I'm hoping it helps other players tap into something and realize what they can do!

This is why I'm about to completely revolutionize the game of pool. Late last night after reading your post, I went to work in the wood shop. I cut off all handles on my shovels and put them on the butt end of my cues. Now no more of this side-to-side wrist action for me. I now hold my cues like a girl pitches a softball. I now have the best wrist action in the game. I REALLY CAN'T MISS A BALL*! Now I only have to combine this with CTE, then I REALLY REALLY won't be able to miss**.

- Chris
* By "REALLY CAN'T MISS" I mean I only miss every 4th shot
** By "REALLY REALLY CAN't MISS" I mean I only miss every 3.97 shots.

<...Sean looks at his monitor, trying to keep a straight face, but simply cannot and does that nasal snort laugh...>

Good one, Chris!

-Sean

 

[peteypooldude]

.........................:bash::deadhorse: