Thanks Dave.I tried to give you some green but you must be overloaded with them.:
Cte
- Thread starter jamesroberts
- Start date
Thanks Dave.I tried to give you some green but you must be overloaded with them.:
Nice shooting Ekkes. You have a preshot/aiming routine that looks a lot like mine, but with more success ;-).
Here we go.
I did my little video.
Try to make it- with or without a pivot aiming system-it is a nice aiming workout. I got a phone call in the middle of the drill so I had to cut it.
Actually I can only upload videos with max. 10 min. length-so I would have to cut it anyway.
Excuse my english please
Have a great day-even all you naysayers :wink:
part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBnYouK4dOE
part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrMwB2-YGhQ&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
A closet pivoter. Who'd a thunk it?
lol
I don't consider Ekker (or Stevie Moore for that matter) "pivoters."
But I know such blasphemy will get me in trouble around here, so I just stay out of this stuff.
You dabble with the best. :wink:
Now that's interesting. Ekker says he pivots. In his "part 1" video, starting about 1:30, there's a series of shots that clearly show him pivoting.
The only reasoning I can see that would make him not a "pivoter" would have to go something like: "Pivoting doesn't work. If a person is successful in making shots, then they must not really be pivoters no matter what they think or what their shooting looks like."
I just looked at them again, and I don't see that.
Have I done or said something in particular to cause that kind of cynicism?
It's clearer on the shot at about 3:16. It's about as far and slightly faster than Stevie Moore's demo shot on the DVD at the very end of Chapter 6. It occurs just as his bridge hand stops moving, right before the beginning of his first practice stroke.
No, you have not, neither here nor in the past. Both the tone and the content of my post maligned you, and I apologize for that.
I would be interested in knowing why you don't consider Ekkers a "pivoter". He says that in that video he's demonstrating pivoting. In the absence of other evidence, it seems reasonable to take the man at his word, whether or not one personally discerns pivoting on the video.
I'm not questing his word. It's not about anybody misrepresenting themselves or anything like that.
I'm just trying to discern where the REAL effort is in the alignment process. What is the step that really determines the line? I look at folks over and over again trying to figure that out.
I think the key to what Ekkers is doing is finding the line with the stick out of the picture, and then placing the bridge hand right under that visual line.
I think the details of the way the stick comes into the picture--part pivot...part parallel--is not so important. What is important is he has THE LINE, and he sets his bridge right on it.
And yes, he does need to know where the pocket is in the first step --finding the line. Then in subsequent steps he can ignore the pocket.
I just think the countless diagrams with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining relationship between the center-to-edge-line and the geometry of the pivoting and the like just don't have much to do with what's going on here.
I could be wrong; I've been wrong before. But I don't think so.
Those things usually have to do with what's not going on (i.e., showing that all shots can't be made by strictly following system instructions).
pj
chgo
Mike,
You make an excellent point. In my experience with CTE / Pro 1 so far that's exactly what I feel is different than my old way of shooting. The visual process of alignment and pivoting is putting my body in the correct position and subsequently my bridge hand in the correct place to make the shots, which is what has been giving me that feeling of being really locked in on the shot. Since I've played for a while, after aligning I can tell that I'm in the right spot, I make the shot, and that then reinforces the alignment/visualization and confidence I currently have using the system.
I shot some today using my old ghost ball / track method. It certainly got me by for a number of years and I had success at the local and even national (BCA) level. I forced myself to ignore all visual lines and just look at the contact point / ghost ball and move into the shot the way I used to. I had that same feeling of uneasiness or being unsure on difficult shots or certain hard to perceive angles, although I still made a lot of them. But when I setup the same shot and used CTE, when I arrived at my destination I no longer felt unsure.
I have yet to validate for myself exactly how or why this works, and trying to keep up with the multiple threads on this topic for more information. At this point I'm still willing to concede that the system is visual in nature and is somehow allowing your eyes and brain to put everything in the correct place, if so great. But it does it so precisely I can't help but think there may be some geometry involved as well. I also realize that for some people they may not want to try it, or may not get it, and that's okay as long as they have some other method that they feel helps them arrive at the proper shot line as often and accurately as possible.
Scott
You make an excellent point. In my experience with CTE / Pro 1 so far that's exactly what I feel is different than my old way of shooting. The visual process of alignment and pivoting is putting my body in the correct position and subsequently my bridge hand in the correct place to make the shots, which is what has been giving me that feeling of being really locked in on the shot. Since I've played for a while, after aligning I can tell that I'm in the right spot, I make the shot, and that then reinforces the alignment/visualization and confidence I currently have using the system.
I shot some today using my old ghost ball / track method. It certainly got me by for a number of years and I had success at the local and even national (BCA) level. I forced myself to ignore all visual lines and just look at the contact point / ghost ball and move into the shot the way I used to. I had that same feeling of uneasiness or being unsure on difficult shots or certain hard to perceive angles, although I still made a lot of them. But when I setup the same shot and used CTE, when I arrived at my destination I no longer felt unsure.
I have yet to validate for myself exactly how or why this works, and trying to keep up with the multiple threads on this topic for more information. At this point I'm still willing to concede that the system is visual in nature and is somehow allowing your eyes and brain to put everything in the correct place, if so great. But it does it so precisely I can't help but think there may be some geometry involved as well. I also realize that for some people they may not want to try it, or may not get it, and that's okay as long as they have some other method that they feel helps them arrive at the proper shot line as often and accurately as possible.
Scott
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Mike, the only thing you're wrong about is if Ekkes is pivoting or not. And wrong seems too strong a word for what you posted. Not familiar with what a Pro One "pivot" looks like would be more correct. That's all. Good post.
Best,
Mike
It's been a long time since I've shot a rifle with iron sights from the Off-hand (standing position) but I did some of that and remember how the front sight kind of waved around just a bit before I slowed the small body movements down to where I could set the sight where it needed to be, which was just below the intended target most of the time.
Well, that's kind of the way I feel about instinctual aiming, like using contact point to contact point, which I'm not too bad at.
But with CTE/Pro One I kind of feel like it is some type of laser aiming/weapons system that you see on fighter jets, except there isn't as much wavy movement, just put in the coordinates and you are LOCKED on. Maybe that may sound a little extreme to some who are not able to use CTE/Pro One effectively just yet or alien to those who tried it and it didn't work for them. However, there isn't any doubt in my mind that it is a POWERFUL TOOL, whether it is geometrically perfect or not.
I have been bouncing back and forth between using CTE/Pro One exclusively and just contact point to contact point. It may sound crazy but I don't have problems moving back and forth between the two. An this may sound even crazier but when I am struggling, I go back to CTE/Pro One and I've only been using that a short time.
With banking I OFTEN use CTE/Pro One rather than traditional "guessing" at where I need to aim the cue ball to make the object ball bank correctly.
I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong or make anyone look badly especially since those who have been responsible for the inappropriate behavior have modified their behavior. I just don't like people taking pot shots at my friends when they aren't here to defend themselves even if it is their choice to not be here. The truth is the forums are a tough place to hang out and they grow a new anonymous sniper every day, some of which who think that getting under someone's skin whom they don't know is mirth for the day.
The forums have become more calm these days as others report positive findings about CTE/Pro One. Hopefully, the people who are truly interested in knowing how and why it works will discover and share the reasons why it works so well. And for those who don't care how it works just as long as it works, well, they will just go on their merry way pocketing balls and singing the mantra, "HAL HOULE, IT RHYMES WITH POOL".
Well, that's kind of the way I feel about instinctual aiming, like using contact point to contact point, which I'm not too bad at.
But with CTE/Pro One I kind of feel like it is some type of laser aiming/weapons system that you see on fighter jets, except there isn't as much wavy movement, just put in the coordinates and you are LOCKED on. Maybe that may sound a little extreme to some who are not able to use CTE/Pro One effectively just yet or alien to those who tried it and it didn't work for them. However, there isn't any doubt in my mind that it is a POWERFUL TOOL, whether it is geometrically perfect or not.
I have been bouncing back and forth between using CTE/Pro One exclusively and just contact point to contact point. It may sound crazy but I don't have problems moving back and forth between the two. An this may sound even crazier but when I am struggling, I go back to CTE/Pro One and I've only been using that a short time.
With banking I OFTEN use CTE/Pro One rather than traditional "guessing" at where I need to aim the cue ball to make the object ball bank correctly.
I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong or make anyone look badly especially since those who have been responsible for the inappropriate behavior have modified their behavior. I just don't like people taking pot shots at my friends when they aren't here to defend themselves even if it is their choice to not be here. The truth is the forums are a tough place to hang out and they grow a new anonymous sniper every day, some of which who think that getting under someone's skin whom they don't know is mirth for the day.
The forums have become more calm these days as others report positive findings about CTE/Pro One. Hopefully, the people who are truly interested in knowing how and why it works will discover and share the reasons why it works so well. And for those who don't care how it works just as long as it works, well, they will just go on their merry way pocketing balls and singing the mantra, "HAL HOULE, IT RHYMES WITH POOL".
I don't think so, either. In fact, I have no real disagreement with anything in that post.
JoeyA,
Do you think it is possible that CTE is not an aiming system but rather an alignment method - especially with the "air pivot"?
Do you think it is possible that CTE is not an aiming system but rather an alignment method - especially with the "air pivot"?
I concur.
One has to know the cut angle to the pocket and then recall from memory the secondary aim point on the OB, shift distance, bridge distance and pivot left or right that solves it. Solve it - it does for users.
Aiming relates to the contact point on the OB I say.:thumbup:
I would call it a alignment method,but for me i aim right from the get go at
certain target in mind ,one that stands out with the cue.(no guessing about it)I place myself in the best and easiest position for my eyes and feel to take over and it works for me.To me it is one of the best alignment method out there once you practice it.(for long back cut shots and shots that you cant really see ) But dont listen to me i actually practice missing balls.Short of the pocket and over cutting the pocket.(crazy ain't it)
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When CTE was for the most part, simply aiming the center of the cue ball at the edge of the object ball, I even called it an alignment system but I think with all of the new components that Stan put together, it is much more than an alignment system.
I think it is an aiming system because it not only gets my body and eyes into the correct position to shoot the shot, it eventually gets me to aim the cue ball where it needs to go in order to make the object ball. That's an aiming system, at least it is for me.
JoeyA
I agree with this wholeheartedly; that is the real question of interest.
The annoying part is that the tools needed to determine what really happens have been around for over 40 years. Almost any decent Biomechanics department will have somebody with the tools needed to record, analyze, and display the body motions. No trying to interpret what people say, no staring at fuzzy YouTube videos, none of that; just nice clear results. Even eye tracking shouldn't be a problem, though it'd probably mean tracking down a CogSci type with the right equipment. Eye tracking at distances we care about seems to use much larger time intervals between samples than we would want, but I'm not real knowledgeable about that stuff, certainly not current, and I suspect that's more a function of what they're studying than any limitations in modern equipment.
Unfortunately, I can't think of any reason some funding agency might care about this or something similar enough that we'd get the data we want.
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Feel
Joey: I went back and found this post from Stan talking about CTE and feel.
08-24-2008, 01:31 PM
PRO ONE and Feel
As a player approaches the table for a turn there are at least three variables to mentally consider: angle and speed and spin. Angle is mostly about making the ball while speed and spin largely determine cueball positioning. In PRO ONE the sightline angle is constant. It?s center-to-edge. There?s no guess work at this point. A player is freed up to put more energy into the variables of speed and spin.
After a player?s initial mental work concerning angle, speed and spin are complete, it?s time to prepare to shoot. Preparation for shooting is largely a sensory function. In PRO ONE alignment the eyes see center-to-edge. No guess work yet. 99% of the aiming is over. During the center-to edge-visual the PRO ONE player is also visualizing and feeling the speed and spin aspects of the shot. Yes, there are systems for speed and spin but feel is a must. The aim aspect is easy. Getting the speed and spin correct is ultimately the greatest challenge. There?s a lot of feel in speed and spin especially during the preparation phase of shooting as one must absorb the precise feeling that is necessary for that speed and spin required for successful shot execution.
Now it?s time to go into a proper stance and physically shoot. In PRO ONE a player uses a simple technique involving 2 variables that brings tip postition to center cueball. The practice strokes are next??Perhaps 3 practice strokes. The aim and tip position is dead on?or maybe a 1% tweak can be made. Yeah, that may involve a little feel. Is it time to shoot yet? I think, no!! The aim is so good at this point that it actually allows a player to have more practice strokes to actually connect with the proper speed and spin feeling that is necessary to pinpoint the cueball.
PRO ONE gets a player aimed-up correctly shot after shot so there?s more time to actually feel the speed and spin during the practice strokes. This is one of the key elements to a pro level game. Aim is easy and not complicated. There?s not much feel or guess work at all with aim. Pros spend their feel time with the all important aspect of controlling the cueball.
Stan Shuffett
Last edited by stan shuffett; 08-24-2008 at 02:39 PM.
It's been a long time since I've shot a rifle with iron sights from the Off-hand (standing position) but I did some of that and remember how the front sight kind of waved around just a bit before I slowed the small body movements down to where I could set the sight where it needed to be, which was just below the intended target most of the time.
Well, that's kind of the way I feel about instinctual aiming, like using contact point to contact point, which I'm not too bad at.
But with CTE/Pro One I kind of feel like it is some type of laser aiming/weapons system that you see on fighter jets, except there isn't as much wavy movement, just put in the coordinates and you are LOCKED on. Maybe that may sound a little extreme to some who are not able to use CTE/Pro One effectively just yet or alien to those who tried it and it didn't work for them. However, there isn't any doubt in my mind that it is a POWERFUL TOOL, whether it is geometrically perfect or not.
I have been bouncing back and forth between using CTE/Pro One exclusively and just contact point to contact point. It may sound crazy but I don't have problems moving back and forth between the two. An this may sound even crazier but when I am struggling, I go back to CTE/Pro One and I've only been using that a short time.
With banking I OFTEN use CTE/Pro One rather than traditional "guessing" at where I need to aim the cue ball to make the object ball bank correctly.
I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong or make anyone look badly especially since those who have been responsible for the inappropriate behavior have modified their behavior. I just don't like people taking pot shots at my friends when they aren't here to defend themselves even if it is their choice to not be here. The truth is the forums are a tough place to hang out and they grow a new anonymous sniper every day, some of which who think that getting under someone's skin whom they don't know is mirth for the day.
The forums have become more calm these days as others report positive findings about CTE/Pro One. Hopefully, the people who are truly interested in knowing how and why it works will discover and share the reasons why it works so well. And for those who don't care how it works just as long as it works, well, they will just go on their merry way pocketing balls and singing the mantra, "HAL HOULE, IT RHYMES WITH POOL".
Joey: I went back and found this post from Stan talking about CTE and feel.
08-24-2008, 01:31 PM
PRO ONE and Feel
As a player approaches the table for a turn there are at least three variables to mentally consider: angle and speed and spin. Angle is mostly about making the ball while speed and spin largely determine cueball positioning. In PRO ONE the sightline angle is constant. It?s center-to-edge. There?s no guess work at this point. A player is freed up to put more energy into the variables of speed and spin.
After a player?s initial mental work concerning angle, speed and spin are complete, it?s time to prepare to shoot. Preparation for shooting is largely a sensory function. In PRO ONE alignment the eyes see center-to-edge. No guess work yet. 99% of the aiming is over. During the center-to edge-visual the PRO ONE player is also visualizing and feeling the speed and spin aspects of the shot. Yes, there are systems for speed and spin but feel is a must. The aim aspect is easy. Getting the speed and spin correct is ultimately the greatest challenge. There?s a lot of feel in speed and spin especially during the preparation phase of shooting as one must absorb the precise feeling that is necessary for that speed and spin required for successful shot execution.
Now it?s time to go into a proper stance and physically shoot. In PRO ONE a player uses a simple technique involving 2 variables that brings tip postition to center cueball. The practice strokes are next??Perhaps 3 practice strokes. The aim and tip position is dead on?or maybe a 1% tweak can be made. Yeah, that may involve a little feel. Is it time to shoot yet? I think, no!! The aim is so good at this point that it actually allows a player to have more practice strokes to actually connect with the proper speed and spin feeling that is necessary to pinpoint the cueball.
PRO ONE gets a player aimed-up correctly shot after shot so there?s more time to actually feel the speed and spin during the practice strokes. This is one of the key elements to a pro level game. Aim is easy and not complicated. There?s not much feel or guess work at all with aim. Pros spend their feel time with the all important aspect of controlling the cueball.
Stan Shuffett
Last edited by stan shuffett; 08-24-2008 at 02:39 PM.