Cue Ball Damage/Break Cue

Island Drive

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Had a good friend over. Cleaned the ball set before play. Week later again, found permanent scratches in the New Belgium red circle that's 3 mths old. The scratches....There were 7 scrape lines, side by side in a row, like a mini pallet. After 4 + hr's play, the cue ball was not like it used to be. He came over again and I asked em to use another shaft with a different break tip. His shaft had not tip, it was part of the shaft, just round at the end.
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Had a good friend over. Cleaned the ball set before play. Week later again, found permanent scratches in the New Belgium red circle that's 3 mths old. The scratches....There were 7 scrape lines, side by side in a row, like a mini pallet. After 4 + hr's play, the cue ball was not like it used to be. He came over again and I asked em to use another shaft with a different break tip. His shaft had not tip, it was part of the shaft, just round at the end.
That’s what you call a phenolic shaft/tip, that you see on a lot of break cues and jump cues. They are known to result in half moon shaped permanent scars on your cue ball, particularly if the player using it breaks very hard and strikes off center of the cue ball on his breaks.

If it is your own table and balls, you have every right to ask him not to use that cue to break with, or to bring his own cue ball with him to use when he breaks. An even easier solution to not risk any hard feelings, just purchase another new red circle Cue ball and use the scarred up one when this gentleman comes over to play with you!
 
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Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That’s what you call a phenolic shaft/tip, that you see on a lot of break cues and jump cues. They are known to result in half moon shaped permanent scars on your cue ball, particularly if the player using it breaks very hard and strikes off center of the cue ball on his breaks.

If it is your own table and balls, you have every right to ask him not to use that cue to break with, or to bring his own cue ball with him to use when he breaks.


Here’s a curve ball to that theory; no one has ever checked for a cue ball half moon crack when it’s just the cue stick striking the cue ball. It’s always after the cue ball has struck the rack. Anecdotal evidence is to not be trusted. A cue stick hitting a stationary cue ball imparts at best a 3x weight implied impact. When the cue ball is hitting the rack, it is seeing an up to 15x weight implied difference. Hard to explain but when the cue ball hits the rack, the forces there should be 5x greater than when the cue stick hits the cue ball.
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
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Here’s a curve ball to that theory; no one has ever checked for a cue ball half moon crack when it’s just the cue stick striking the cue ball. It’s always after the cue ball has struck the rack. Anecdotal evidence is to not be trusted. A cue stick hitting a stationary cue ball imparts at best a 3x weight implied impact. When the cue ball is hitting the rack, it is seeing an up to 15x weight implied difference. Hard to explain but when the cue ball hits the rack, the forces there should be 5x greater than when the cue stick hits the cue ball.
I personally can’t buy that argument. If that was the case, it wouldn’t be a half moon shaped mark but would be a completely circular scar, and also wouldn't that impart a virtually identical scar on the head object ball as well?
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
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I personally can’t buy that argument. If that was the case, it wouldn’t be a half moon shaped mark but would be a completely circular scar, and also wouldn't that impart a virtually identical scar on the head object ball as well?

Assuming much? Why wouldn’t a cue stick leave a full circular mark then too? And you’re not paying attention to details. Four hours of play left 7 little marks. My explanation says that there were only 7 good breaks during that 4 hours. Otherwise if it was the cue making the marks, couldn’t there be 30+? Think about for a second. If there were 7 marks on the cue ball, then in four hours there were only 7 breaks done if it was the cue tip.
 

Baxter

Out To Win
Silver Member
Here’s a curve ball to that theory; no one has ever checked for a cue ball half moon crack when it’s just the cue stick striking the cue ball. It’s always after the cue ball has struck the rack. Anecdotal evidence is to not be trusted. A cue stick hitting a stationary cue ball imparts at best a 3x weight implied impact. When the cue ball is hitting the rack, it is seeing an up to 15x weight implied difference. Hard to explain but when the cue ball hits the rack, the forces there should be 5x greater than when the cue stick hits the cue ball.

Nope, it's the break shaft/tip. Hard phenolic tips will do, G10 even more so. The Hammerhead from Outsville doesn't do it, nor will hard leather.
 

fishermanOICUR1

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
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cue ball

Any cue ball that has been used for a while will show those half moon marks from impact with the rack. If you use a full leather tip for breaking, the marks still show up. Easy to prove or disprove. Start with a new cue ball and break 50 times with leather only.
Does not affect playability!!
 

Jimmorrison

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How can this even be a debate? Isn’t it already well established info? Didn’t they outlaw phenolic break tips for a reason? Doesn’t everyone already know this?
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nope, it's the break shaft/tip. Hard phenolic tips will do, G10 even more so. The Hammerhead from Outsville doesn't do it, nor will hard leather.

Are people really this blind? The pool balls are made from a phenolic resin. The tip made from phenolic resin. Yet somehow a cue that is 5x less forceful on impact than the cb->rack force is what’s causing the half moon cracks?
 

Baxter

Out To Win
Silver Member
Are people really this blind? The pool balls are made from a phenolic resin. The tip made from phenolic resin. Yet somehow a cue that is 5x less forceful on impact than the cb->rack force is what’s causing the half moon cracks?

So where all the half moon cracks on the object balls then? I haven't seen a single one.
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How can this even be a debate? Isn’t it already well established info? Didn’t they outlaw phenolic break tips for a reason? Doesn’t everyone already know this?

Word of mouth is now established information? Where’s the actual tests showing these anecdotal claims?
 

Jimmorrison

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pretty sure those tests and results have been posted here previously, by people that are into doing it definitively. I’m not quick at the whole search and post links thing, but it’s there.
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
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So where all the half moon cracks on the object balls then? I haven't seen a single one.

I’ve seen plenty. But since no one cares enough to actually look at the evidence on hand, it’s often overlooked. You’ll notice the cue ball marks because you’re actively looking at it.

I’ve broken two object balls by breaking in the last 3 months. Still haven’t broken a cue ball.
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pretty sure those tests and results have been posted here previously, by people that are into doing it definitively. I’m not quick at the whole search and post links thing, but it’s there.

Do you understand what a test actually encompasses? That doesn’t mean break a rack 50 times, find the evidence you were looking for and quitting like they did.
 

couldnthinkof01

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nope, it's the break shaft/tip. Hard phenolic tips will do, G10 even more so. The Hammerhead from Outsville doesn't do it, nor will hard leather.

I had a white diamond for a short period of time.
Some kind of leather phenolic hybrid?
This one didn't leave the marks that the
phenolic tip I had did.
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I had a white diamond for a short period of time.
Some kind of leather phenolic hybrid?
This one didn't leave the marks that the
phenolic tip I had did.

This is the anecdotal evidence I’m talking about. A white diamond tip is harder than a phenolic tip. How could a softer tip leave marks but the harder one doesn’t? No one can explain that and still stick to their theory that the composite tips cause the marks.
 

couldnthinkof01

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is the anecdotal evidence I’m talking about. A white diamond tip is harder than a phenolic tip. How could a softer tip leave marks but the harder one doesn’t? No one can explain that and still stick to their theory that the composite tips cause the marks.

White diamond is harder than phenolic?
All phenolic?
Proof?

I did no experimentation.
I noticed the day I got a phenolic tip break cue
that it put marks on my aramith cue ball.

Changed the tip a week later to white diamond.
Bought a new cueball, no marks.

Changed to water buffalo hard tip after 2 weeks.
Didn't like the white diamond.

Just my observation and experience.
While I do have a bachelor of science,
I did not use it to find out the results.
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is the anecdotal evidence I’m talking about. A white diamond tip is harder than a phenolic tip. How could a softer tip leave marks but the harder one doesn’t? No one can explain that and still stick to their theory that the composite tips cause the marks.
My theory would be that even with a phenolic break tip, if the cue ball is struck dead center, no matter how hard, it’s not likely to leave a mark. The breaks leaving the half-moon scars are the hard hit off-center cue ball hits, which is why it’s a half moon and not a full moon mark.
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My theory would be that even with a phenolic break tip, if the cue ball is struck dead center, no matter how hard, it’s not likely to leave a mark. The breaks leaving the half-moon scars are the hard hit off-center cue ball hits, which is why it’s a half moon and not a full moon mark.

So couldn’t the exact be same for a slightly off center impact on the rack be the cause too?
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So couldn’t the exact be same for a slightly off center impact on the rack be the cause too?
Simple physics – a round hard surface cue ball striking a round hard surface object ball or balls all of the same size diameter, regardless of the angle coming in to that ball, has an actual contact point between both balls as completely flat surfaces at that point, no larger than a pinhead, and is not possibly going to leave any type of scar on either ball.
 
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