# Cue Ball Damage/Break Cue

#### Hits 'em Hard

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Simple physics – a round hard surface cue ball striking a round hard surface object ball or balls all of the same size diameter, regardless of the angle coming in to that ball, has an actual contact point between both balls as completely flat surfaces at that point, no larger than a pinhead, and is not possibly going to leave any type of scar on either ball.

Simple physics(calculus 2) states that contact point between two arcs stays the same no matter the curve of the arc. You’re wrong in your assumption. Simply put, unless the cue tip is actually harder than the cue ball, the half moon cracks aren’t caused by the tip itself.

#### ChrisinNC

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Simple physics(calculus 2) states that contact point between two arcs stays the same no matter the curve of the arc. You’re wrong in your assumption. Simply put, unless the cue tip is actually harder than the cue ball, the half moon cracks aren’t caused by the tip itself.
I’m done with this thread, but my last point, why do you think miscue marks are caused on a cue ball?

#### Hits 'em Hard

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’m done with this thread, but my last point, why do you think miscue marks are caused on a cue ball?

Are you changing the subject now?

#### Jimmorrison

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You seem like a perfect candidate to prove this. I can’t hit the cue ball hard enough to hurt it. Do you have a break cue, with phenolic tip? Your own table? If so, put a big couch cushion on the end rail, and blast an unmarked cue ball in to it. Hit em hard, 24+ range. Even a great stroke, will be slightly off center, once in a while. I bet the marks will start to show.

#### Island Drive

Silver Member
They are ''scraping'' marks from the slippage caused when the shaft surface Slides at impact. All Identical marks. If I was to count, I'm sure the Exact number of break shots he hit equal the exact number of scrapes. I once hand cleaned 14 balls sets 5 days a week for 4 yrs straight. And many times after that.

#### Hits 'em Hard

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You seem like a perfect candidate to prove this. I can’t hit the cue ball hard enough to hurt it. Do you have a break cue, with phenolic tip? Your own table? If so, put a big couch cushion on the end rail, and blast an unmarked cue ball in to it. Hit em hard, 24+ range. Even a great stroke, will be slightly off center, once in a while. I bet the marks will start to show.

Not a phenolic tip, the Cyborg break 2.0. No table at home. We’ll see once I get out of this surgery required quarantine period if I can get something set up and going at a friends. And unless I have a radar gun, I can only speculate as to what my actually speed will be. But I’d hope I could do 28+ a bunch to help show.

#### Hits 'em Hard

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
They are ''scraping'' marks from the slippage caused when the shaft surface Slides at impact. All Identical marks. If I was to count, I'm sure the Exact number of break shots he hit equal the exact number of scrapes. I once hand cleaned 14 balls sets 5 days a week for 4 yrs straight. And many times after that.

If the marks are as you refer to them, scrapes and not cracks. That is a totally different problem. I would say that those marks are from an entirely different issue than just how hard a tip is. A prep/surface issue. Dry chalk not adhering, causing your friend to overly scuff his tip. Could have created a couple grooves which then would cut the surface like you say.

#### garczar

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is the anecdotal evidence I’m talking about. A white diamond tip is harder than a phenolic tip. How could a softer tip leave marks but the harder one doesn’t? No one can explain that and still stick to their theory that the composite tips cause the marks.
WD is not as hard as phenolic or G10. I've seen G10 tips put those little circular marks real quik. Some Phenolic will but not all. Never seen them when using a WD tip.

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#### garczar

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
They are ''scraping'' marks from the slippage caused when the shaft surface Slides at impact. All Identical marks. If I was to count, I'm sure the Exact number of break shots he hit equal the exact number of scrapes. I once hand cleaned 14 balls sets 5 days a week for 4 yrs straight. And many times after that.
What are you talking about? Shaft slippage marks?? Shaft surface scraping?? Not getting what you are are trying describe.

#### Hits 'em Hard

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
WD is not as hard as phenolic or G10. I've seen G10 tips put those little circular marks real quik. Some Phenolic will but not all. Never seen them when using a WD tip.

All the old hardness charts I’ve used are no longer around. Seems they’ve been updated. But the ones I remember always had phenolic at 98, and white diamond at 99. None of them had G10 listed either. Now the charts I see had WD at 90, and Phenolic is 99, and no G10. Seems to be some discrepancy somewhere.

And I agree about G10 being a terrible material for a break tip. The way that stuff is made just promotes problems. Imagine it wasn’t a canvas phenolic, but a fiberglass phenolic. That shit would scuff/crack balls like crazy. But a canvas phenolic should be multitudes softer than g10.

What are you talking about? Shaft slippage marks?? Shaft surface scraping?? Not getting what you are are trying describe.

Act as if your tip is a match, and the cue ball is the surface used to strike the match. That type of slippage. Basically a miscue.

#### garczar

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
All the old hardness charts I’ve used are no longer around. Seems they’ve been updated. But the ones I remember always had phenolic at 98, and white diamond at 99. None of them had G10 listed either. Now the charts I see had WD at 90, and Phenolic is 99, and no G10. Seems to be some discrepancy somewhere.

And I agree about G10 being a terrible material for a break tip. The way that stuff is made just promotes problems. Imagine it wasn’t a canvas phenolic, but a fiberglass phenolic. That shit would scuff/crack balls like crazy. But a canvas phenolic should be multitudes softer than g10.

Act as if your tip is a match, and the cue ball is the surface used to strike the match. That type of slippage. Basically a miscue.
That type of 'slippage' isn't going to damage a ball. I don't see that even marking it other than chalk. I also agree with current hardness rating. WD is not as hard as G10 or phen. and MUCH easier to control.

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#### softshot

##### Simplify
Silver Member
I bought a new set of super pros over a decade ago.. My jump/break cue has a canvas phenolic tip... I practice my break in sets of 15 at least 3 times a week usually 5 days a week.. I practice jumping in sets of 30 balls once a week..

And that's not even counting the actual games against my son and my friends or he with his....with a wide variety of equipment..

My balls could still be sold as new.. they are pristine .. I have taken no special care of them I treat them like pool balls

I've never used "New Belgium" never heard of them actually.. your problem could just be a bad ball..

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#### ChrisinNC

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
New Belgium? Getting your beer mixed up with pool balls!

#### garczar

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
New Belgium? Getting your beer mixed up with pool balls!
I've never done that. Well, sometimes.

#### Bavafongoul

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
HELP.......Intelligent Scientific Evaluation Is Needed.......HELP!

The beacon signal is being sent into the dark night sky like Batman’s insignia call for help.

Dr. Dave......Calling Dr. Dave......We Need You Dr. Dave.....Save Us From This Madness.

#### fiftyyardline

##### AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here’s a curve ball to that theory; no one has ever checked for a cue ball half moon crack when it’s just the cue stick striking the cue ball. It’s always after the cue ball has struck the rack. Anecdotal evidence is to not be trusted. A cue stick hitting a stationary cue ball imparts at best a 3x weight implied impact. When the cue ball is hitting the rack, it is seeing an up to 15x weight implied difference. Hard to explain but when the cue ball hits the rack, the forces there should be 5x greater than when the cue stick hits the cue ball.

It’s easy to figure out - get a fairly new cue ball that has no scuff marks and break a few racks with your leather tipped playing cue, then compare that to a few racks of breaking with a phenolic tipped break cue. If it’s a high quality cue ball, like an Aramith red circle, damage will clearly be seen from the phenolic tip that will not happen with a leather tip.
I don’t let anyone use a phenolic tipped break cue on my table - they can use my break cue with a Samsara hard leather tip. (After damaging too many cue balls)

#### SpotOn

##### Registered

why can't someone post a picture of what exactly everyone is talking about.????:grin::grin:

#### maha

##### from way back when
Silver Member
simple as said have him use his own cueball or use and old cheap one.
you need a new one anyway now. it doesnt have to be personal and if it is to the person screw him as a friend.

simple as saying your cue ruins my cueball so you use your own or a different stick with a leather tip

you can hit a rock with a hammer and break it. but not with your belt..

#### Hits 'em Hard

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
simple as said have him use his own cueball or use and old cheap one.
you need a new one anyway now. it doesnt have to be personal and if it is to the person screw him as a friend.

simple as saying your cue ruins my cueball so you use your own or a different stick with a leather tip

you can hit a rock with a hammer and break it. but not with your belt..

How big is my belt?

Some things aren’t just easily explained. Concepts get lost. If I hit two identical looking 28mph breaks, same cue ball reaction. Center cue ball, square hit.. But one with a leather tip, and one with a phenolic tip. How is the energy/forces the cue ball is receiving able to tell the difference between the tips? It isn’t. The only differences would come about when we start augmenting the strike point and contact points. Which would mean possible miscues.

Now that Bill explained his problem a little clearer, there are realistically two options. The tip was not smooth, and there was some sort of extra abrasion happening. Or the cue ball managed to contact the same part of the ball multiple times throughout play on something. Which I would then say is a defective cue ball. If case 1, some sandpaper grit could have still been on the tip. Case 2 would be extremely coincidental.

Bill did you notice your friend scuffing his break tip at all? Did he miscue breaking at all? There’s probably more questions needed to be asked to get the answer, but until we get supplied with more info, then we can’t properly answer it.

#### Island Drive

Silver Member
How big is my belt?

Some things aren’t just easily explained. Concepts get lost. If I hit two identical looking 28mph breaks, same cue ball reaction. Center cue ball, square hit.. But one with a leather tip, and one with a phenolic tip. How is the energy/forces the cue ball is receiving able to tell the difference between the tips? It isn’t. The only differences would come about when we start augmenting the strike point and contact points. Which would mean possible miscues.

Now that Bill explained his problem a little clearer, there are realistically two options. The tip was not smooth, and there was some sort of extra abrasion happening. Or the cue ball managed to contact the same part of the ball multiple times throughout play on something. Which I would then say is a defective cue ball. If case 1, some sandpaper grit could have still been on the tip. Case 2 would be extremely coincidental.

Bill did you notice your friend scuffing his break tip at all? Did he miscue breaking at all? There’s probably more questions needed to be asked to get the answer, but until we get supplied with more info, then we can’t properly answer it.

All the underlined items are NO.
Gone thru 2 tips in 3 mths, and nary a scratch on that cue ball/then/ding.
The Break shaft is dome shaped at the end, has NO tip, the shaft is the tip. I kinda remember now hearing about some shafts/tips? etc that damaged cue balls when breaking.