Cue Ball last glance or Object Ball last glance?

[Bobkitty]

Starting a poll on what pool players glance at last before stroking. I've always looked at the object ball last and thought everyone did but I'm finding out that is not the case. CTE users look at the cue ball last and that might be reason enough to learn that system. Seems it would be easy to hit the cue ball in the middle if we're looking at it last.

 

[BC21]

Maybe it depends on where your focal aim point is. If it's on or near the OB, and the player is confidently lined through CCB toward the focal point, then that should probably get the final look, on the destination end. Like pitching a baseball....who glances at their hand or arm to make sure the throw is lined directly to the catchers mitt?

If the focal point is CCB, then you'll probably not be looking anywhere else but CCB, which seems like a good idea if the other end of the aim line is too far away to focus on with any accuracy, and as long as the aim line isn't off by a hair or more.

For me, the target end is where I prefer to look last, after the aim line is determined. Every great player I've watched in person does this. Their eyes go back and forth between CB and OB, and just before they release their stroke they glance to where they are sending the CB. Doesn't mean all great players do this, only the ones I've had the privilege to watch in person.

 

[SkinnyPete]

... Like pitching a baseball....who glances at their hand or arm to make sure the throw is lined directly to the catchers mitt?...

Your analogy reminded me of another one: when shooting pistols we are taught to focus on the front sight, not the target... for what ever that's worth.

It makes sense to me that one would want to give the cue tip and cue ball the most attention since that's the only thing we can truly control.

 

[Dan White]

I'll venture that 99% of professional players look at the ob last, even the ones who use CTE but don't know it. I thought Stan looked at ob last, too. No?

 

[fathomblue]

The whole "it's like pitching a baseball or throwing a football analogy"........just please stop.

It's nothing like those things. Pool is like nothing else. To put it into true relation in comparing the toss of a football to a wide receiver:

Pool Football

Your hand = your hand
Cue = football
Cue ball = target (whether it be the receiver or the "leading" area)
Object ball = end zone

Now, which do you look at in the football scenario? The target area you want the football to go.

In pool, you are "throwing" the cue into the target which is the CB. You line up your body, eyes, head, etc. to be able to deliver the accurate stroke. But, the OB isn't moving. Ah, but in throwing the football, the target area could move, right? That's just one reason why you can't compare them.

If it's a stationary receiver in football. A simple game of catch, then there's no target past that person catching the football. It's a game of catch. In pool, we still (usually) have a stationary pocket that's in the mix.

Where do MOST players focus on last when when they are jumping or breaking?

Yes, I know I'm in the 1% and most players, pro's included, look at the OB last. I just happen to completely disagree with the premise. Do both ways work? Absolutely.

 

[BC21]

The whole "it's like pitching a baseball or throwing a football analogy"........just please stop.

It's nothing like those things. Pool is like nothing else. To put it into true relation in comparing the toss of a football to a wide receiver:

Pool Football

Your hand = your hand
Cue = football
Cue ball = target (whether it be the receiver or the "leading" area)
Object ball = end zone

Now, which do you look at in the football scenario? The target area you want the football to go.

In pool, you are "throwing" the cue into the target which is the CB. You line up your body, eyes, head, etc. to be able to deliver the accurate stroke. But, the OB isn't moving. Ah, but in throwing the football, the target area could move, right? That's just one reason why you can't compare them.

If it's a stationary receiver in football. A simple game of catch, then there's no target past that person catching the football. It's a game of catch. In pool, we still (usually) have a stationary pocket that's in the mix.

Where do MOST players focus on last when when they are jumping or breaking?

Yes, I know I'm in the 1% and most players, pro's included, look at the OB last. I just happen to completely disagree with the premise. Do both ways work? Absolutely.

Lmao! "Your hand = your hand"

Yes your analogy is much better. And I look at the CB last when jumping because that phenolic tip has to hit the exact spot needed to give me whatever lift and trajectory I'm trying to get. But when I'm stroking through the cue ball with my shooting wood, I'm very confident that my stroke is going exactly where it feels like it's going....well, give or take a millimeter sometimes. So I glance to that destination spot at the end of the known aim line.

 

[lfigueroa]

Starting a poll on what pool players glance at last before stroking. I've always looked at the object ball last and thought everyone did but I'm finding out that is not the case. CTE users look at the cue ball last and that might be reason enough to learn that system. Seems it would be easy to hit the cue ball in the middle if we're looking at it last.

I'm a OB last kinda guy.

A few year back there was a story going round the local pool hall that a certain pro was advocating CB last. I saw that pro at the Derby later that year and went up and asked him if that was so. He looked at me and said, "Lou, you're a good enough player to know better."

Lou Figueroa

 

[stan shuffett]

The mindset for CTE is that the CB is THE TARGET! That does not mean that one has to see the CB last but it is the target even if one shifts to the OB. Either is ok but most prefer the OB last even though the CB is the target. IMO one should focus on the CB a little longer.....midbackswing or even to the pause.

Stan Shuffett

 

[Mirza]

I use CTE PRO ONE and I look at the OB last, so what?

How does that have anything to do with the aiming system, when I'm down in full stance I'm already finished with aiming?

 

[Bobkitty]

Maybe it depends on where your focal aim point is. If it's on or near the OB, and the player is confidently lined through CCB toward the focal point, then that should probably get the final look, on the destination end. Like pitching a baseball....who glances at their hand or arm to make sure the throw is lined directly to the catchers mitt?

If the focal point is CCB, then you'll probably not be looking anywhere else but CCB, which seems like a good idea if the other end of the aim line is too far away to focus on with any accuracy, and as long as the aim line isn't off by a hair or more.

For me, the target end is where I prefer to look last, after the aim line is determined. Every great player I've watched in person does this. Their eyes go back and forth between CB and OB, and just before they release their stroke they glance to where they are sending the CB. Doesn't mean all great players do this, only the ones I've had the privilege to watch in person.

That's exactly how I always thought the great players do it. I do it that way but that doesn't mean anything. I was just curious and bewildered that some can actually look at the CB last and play a decent game.

 

[gregcantrall]

I'm a OB last kinda guy.

A few year back there was a story going round the local pool hall that a certain pro was advocating CB last. I saw that pro at the Derby later that year and went up and asked him if that was so. He looked at me and said, "Lou, you know better than that."

Lou Figueroa

I have since spoken with 3 people that took lessons from that pro and they all said he teaches cue ball last.
Rodney Morris looks at the cue ball last. John Higgins, just finished 2nd in the snooker world championship, looks at cue ball last.

I don't know how to add a link from my phone. Go to find all threads started by gregcantrall and look for experiments in looking at the cue ball.........

 

[lfigueroa]

I have since spoken with 3 people that took lessons from that pro and they all said he teaches cue ball last.
Rodney Morris looks at the cue ball last. John Higgins, just finished 2nd in the snooker world championship, looks at cue ball last.

I don't know how to add a link from my phone. Go to find all threads started by gregcantrall and look for experiments in looking at the cue ball.........

All I know is what the man told me, nose-to-nose. I think that qualifies as some kind of primary source, which normally trumps secondary sources.

Lou Figueroa

 

[gregcantrall]

I got to my laptop,here is the link.

Experiments in looking at the cueball while delivering the stroke..

 

[Neil]

Whether one looks at the cb or the ob last is simply a matter of personal preference. What is important, is that one spends enough time at the cb to ensure that they will be hitting it exactly where they intend to, and on the shot line.

If one is properly aligned to the shot line via the cb, then one can shut their eyes and still make the shot.

 

[gregcantrall]

All I know is what the man told me, nose-to-nose. I think that qualifies as some kind of primary source, which normally trumps secondary sources.

Lou Figueroa

I understand your point but there is a definite discrepancy in what you took from your conversation and what three of his students took from paid lessons. If I ever see him again I will have more than "hearsay" and will report same, no matter what the answer is.

The evidence is abundant that SOME world class players do look at the cue ball last.

Ronnie O'Sullivan when questioned on a particular shot:

Question; "When you're, um, when you're down on this shot.... Are you, is the last the last ball you look at the cue ball? Or the object ball?"
Ronnie; "Uh I don't even know, to be honest with you."
Question; "No?"
Ronnie; "No, I don't even know. I suppose, it's meant to be the object ball, but I sometimes I find myself looking at the white."

 

[-Dinos-]

It depends on the type of the shot. For simple cut shots i look at the OB last, but for specialty shots (masse, jump, break e.t.c.) i look at the CB.

 

[AtLarge]

Starting a poll on what pool players glance at last before stroking. I've always looked at the object ball last and thought everyone did but I'm finding out that is not the case. CTE users look at the cue ball last and that might be reason enough to learn that system. Seems it would be easy to hit the cue ball in the middle if we're looking at it last.

The topic of OB last or CB last has been discussed many times over the years. You're new here, so you didn't know that.

Here's a poll on the subject from just 2 years ago. The split for AzB respondents was 85/15 in favor of OB last: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=394030

Here's something I've posted several times in the past.


For one large set of sports actions, let's call it Category I, the competitor is holding or is attached to a piece of equipment and desires to direct that piece of equipment elsewhere:

• Throwing a baseball;
• Throwing a football;
• Throwing/shooting a basketball;
• Throwing a dart;
• Rolling a bowling ball;
• Shooting an arrow;
• Shooting a gun;
• Driving a race car;
• Riding a race horse.

In all of these, and many more, the competitor's "last look" is at the target for the ball or dart or car, etc. -- not at the ball (or steering wheel).

For another large set of sports actions, let's call it Category II, the competitor holds one piece of equipment and desires to hit another piece of equipment and direct that second piece of equipment to a desired target or with a certain degree of accuracy:

• Hitting a baseball;
• Kicking a football;
• Hitting a tennis ball;
• Hitting a golf ball;
• Hitting a ping pong ball;
• Hitting a badminton shuttlecock;
• Striking a volley ball.

In all of these, and many more, the competitor's "last look" is at the ball -- not at the target for that ball and not at the piece of equipment he is holding.

So how about pool/billiards? Isn't it logically a Category II action? We hold one piece of equipment (the cue stick), desiring to strike a second piece of equipment (the cue ball), and send that second piece of equipment to a desired target (a proper hit on the object ball or rail). We are throwing the cue stick in an underhand motion at the cue ball. So "cue ball last" is appropriate, right?

But I am quite sure that the majority (but by no means all) of the top pool players look at the object ball last. If my analogies above are correct, why does "OB last" work so well for so many players? I believe it is because the cue ball is at rest and we can place our cue stick and bridge hand precisely behind it and thereby treat the combination of cue stick and cue ball as almost one piece of equipment instead of two. Then the cuing action becomes similar to a Category I action -- we are throwing the cue stick/ball at the object ball. So "object ball last" works just fine if the cue stick is always precisely delivered to the cue ball.

So either way -- CB last or OB last -- can work well in pool. I believe analogies with other sports argue more closely for CB last (my Category II above), but just a slightly different way of viewing what's happening can create a good Category I argument.

 

[Bobkitty]

The topic of OB last or CB last has been discussed many times over the years. You're new here, so you didn't know that.



So either way -- CB last or OB last -- can work well in pool. I believe analogies with other sports argue more closely for CB last (my Category II above), but just a slightly different way of viewing what's happening can create a good Category I argument.

Great post and you are correct, I am new so did not know it had been discussed before. Another analogy is putting in golf. Most keep their head still looking at the ball and trying to see the spot where it was sitting when the ball has gone, just to be sure a head movement didn't spoil the stroke. BUT, many have been very successful looking at the hole. Jordan Speith does this quite often and he is maybe the best putter on tour. I think one has to have a pretty good stroke and hitting the golf ball in the middle of the putter head without looking at the action and probably the same can be said about pool.
I've never tried looking at the CB last except for jump shots or where the balls are so close, both can be seen. This is one of the things that excites me about learning CTE.

 

[lfigueroa]

I understand your point but there is a definite discrepancy in what you took from your conversation and what three of his students took from paid lessons. If I ever see him again I will have more than "hearsay" and will report same, no matter what the answer is.

The evidence is abundant that SOME world class players do look at the cue ball last.

Ronnie O'Sullivan when questioned on a particular shot:

Question; "When you're, um, when you're down on this shot.... Are you, is the last the last ball you look at the cue ball? Or the object ball?"
Ronnie; "Uh I don't even know, to be honest with you."
Question; "No?"
Ronnie; "No, I don't even know. I suppose, it's meant to be the object ball, but I sometimes I find myself looking at the white."

Well, that's far short of a resounding endorsement of CB last -- when asked what he looks at last and says, "Uh I don't even know, to be honest with you."

As to whatever others are teaching, there can be no doubt that some folks out there are advocating some strange ca-ca. In fact, I'm thinking of all the pro authored books on my shelves and I cannot think of a one that advocates CB last.

Lou Figueroa

 

[stan shuffett]

CTE expands one's visual field. Traditional aiming is quite limiting in a lot of ways.
If one is to view the CB last for CTE then it should be done in a manner that the player can have his cake and eat it, too.
In CTE with CCB, for example, the player works with 4 reoccurring distinct CB OB visual relationships.
An experienced CTE player can see the CB last but yet at the same time peripherally see the OB relationship to the CB. In other words, both CB and OB can be viewed together.
It does not have to be one or the other.
That is not in pro books, so it must be ca ca.....
I am glad that I have learned to think outside of the box.

Stan Shuffett