Cue Ball rotation after it hits OB

[taojones]

back spin is not considered "english " it would cause the cue ball to diverge from the expected line in the direction of the shooter depending on how hard it was hit . side spin if induced by a dirty ball or chalk spot on the cue ball would not effect the path of the ball until it hit a rail as there would be no "squirt " from the cue stick whipping action . any effect on either ball from spin would be apparent only after contact with a rail. object ball may show a divergence from the expected line by what Byrne describes as "directional throw" that is throw produced by ball friction when passing each other . you might be attributing the throw effect to spin .

 

[naji]

I don't question just your accuracy, I question everyone's accuracy when it comes to hitting the exact center. If I had to rely on hitting the exact center without deviating the line of the cue ball intentionally I would be playing a MUCH more difficult than the way I have explained.

Bob explained something that many player over look is even with center ball you still get outside English after contact. I've stated that when I ask Efren what he did that was better than the American players he said "NO SPIN," and this did not mean "center ball," because that does produce spin. I don't measure the after contact spin with any slow motion cameras, what I do is calibrate the cue ball to produce NO SPIN after contact.

This produces what I show in the TOI Demonstrations as the "Floating Cue Ball," and that's how a first saw it done by some of the top road players of my time. This is an advanced way to play, however, it's also much more effective and can produce a better touch and feel for the Game.

Thanks much CJ for responding, i am very aware of how difficult to shoot with no side spin, pure draw or pure follow, i make big effort to keep cue guided by my chin, and chest, and my tip is barley 1/8" gap from CB when i am about to fire my shot, certain shots i pull cue only about an inch. True though when i am close to rails jacked up a little, it is harder to judge.
TOI is good way to compensate for aim and kill spin on CB (i learned this from this post thanks to all that contributed) yet one has to be very careful of where tip contact CB, and it take one to get used to the feel it certainly a way to play.

 

[taojones]

naji i have been reading the posts from cj and bob jewitt (hello bob this is bill pellegrini)

here's a way to truly test what they have been telling you about the accuracy of your hit
get yourself a cue ball with one of those red dots on it and carefully place it at vertical and horizontal center then chalk your tip and try to execute the shot you describe. afterwards note the chalk mark on the cue ball if the red dot is not in the center of the chalk mark then you put some spin in that direction on the stroke . you can practice your center ball hit by shooting the cue ball at the rail on the opposite side of the table and seeing if the cue ball comes back to the stick if it comes left or right you were off center.

like bob says the cue ball doesn't lie, there are laws of physics not rules or general ideas.
the tao says "right actions = right results " your observations tell us that there are factors your not observing .

 

[taojones]

i just noticed in your last post you jack up your cue. that will masse your shot to some amount for each degree you add to the stroke from parallel. a center ball hit is hard enough a jacked up center ball hit is a real chore. (think of the center of the ball as a BB in the middle of the ball , that is my mental target when i am attempting a center ball hit. the center of the ball is not on the surface of the ball )

 

[CJ Wiley]

even the best players in the world when hitting the ball with extreme speed do this

OK, I suspected it wasn't and in frustration I was getting close to using an unnecessarily harsh "tone" in my response.

So here it goes:

Bob Jewett is undoubtedly an expert on the game. Please re-read his post:
One ball transfers spin to another by rubbing sideways on its surface. That rub can be from either the motion or the spin of the first ball. If the rub gives clockwise spin (left english) to the second ball, the first ball has to get an equal amount of clockwise spin. If the first ball starts with spin before the collision, then the final spin will be the total of what it came in with and what was acquired during the collision.

Which side spin is added to each ball does not depend on whether you have draw or follow on the cue ball.

The same side of spin on the two balls if you start with none is due to the force sideways at the contact point being in opposite directions on the two balls but on opposite "sides" of the two balls.

It's a little confusing that if you want to get right spin on the object ball by spinning the cue ball you need to use left english on the cue ball. The trick is that during the collision some of the spin on the cue ball is used up in making the object ball spin so the cue ball is getting net right english.

I realize this may be difficult to understand if English is not your first language.

In short, a cue ball struck dead center will have no side spin when it leaves the tip of the cue. When the cue ball strikes an object ball, both balls will pick up some spin in the same direction. That is to say they will both begin to rotate slightly due to the friction between them at impact, but they will always rotate in the same direction.

As Mr. Jewett mentions, draw and follow play no part whatsoever in this interaction. If you are hitting these cut shots and the cue ball is rotating in the opposite direction of the object ball, you did not hit the center of the cue ball. You imparted that opposite spin when you struck the cue ball.

I understand you believe you are always hitting center cue ball, but you are not. Your observation of the cue ball and object ball prove as much. The cue ball doesn't lie. For you to suggest you are hitting dead center every time when a world class player like CJ Wiley has mentioned numerous times his reasons for not even attempting to do so is preposterous. You are striking the cue ball left or right of the vertical axis. Period. The matter is not up for discussion.

My advice is to forget the follow and draw. Bob told you they don't matter and you either did not understand him or you ignored him. I'll tell you again... they do not matter in so much as the questions you've raised in this thread. In all likelihood, in your attempt to put extreme follow or draw on the shot you are striking it off center.

To answer your four questions (which you answered for yourself when you said "if all same answer that is fine") yes, the answer is the same in all four cases. Roll, stun, and draw on the cue ball will all result in it spinning in the same direction as the object ball after impact as long as you've struck the vertical axis of the cue ball (ie. no side spin).

I hope this helps and I've avoided coming across as too harsh. If you have any other questions, by all means ask. And, as always, if I've misstated something someone please correct me.

Scott

Yes, even the best players in the world when hitting the ball with extreme speed will be unlikely (and won't really try) to hit the cue ball perfectly center, whether it's high or low on the vertical axis.

When you see someone like Earl S., Mike D. or Larry N. hit that super stroke shot you will always see them hit it with some side spin. This is because they are trying to, it's more accurate to play one side or the other and play the deflection accordingly.

The harder you hit the cue ball the more important this is, and usually key shots in a match are hit firmly. That's why I would recommend an advanced player start playing deflection at least a percentage of his or her practice or they will not progress to the next level. imho

 

[Wright Shot]

thats a terrific example

If I may reply to my own reply,

One thing I find helpful in visualizing this is to imagine the following:

You are walking down the hall, and someone is standing in your way, facing you. You try to walk to your left to avoid running into them, but you accidentally bump your right shoulder against their right shoulder. Both of you will "pick up" some left (clockwise) "spin."

I hope that makes sense.

-Blake

Now that makes sense to a novice like me.

 

[Wright Shot]

?

I don't question just your accuracy, I question everyone's accuracy when it comes to hitting the exact center. If I had to rely on hitting the exact center without deviating the line of the cue ball intentionally I would be playing a MUCH more difficult than the way I have explained.

Bob explained something that many player over look is even with center ball you still get outside English after contact. I've stated that when I ask Efren what he did that was better than the American players he said "NO SPIN," and this did not mean "center ball," because that does produce spin. I don't measure the after contact spin with any slow motion cameras, what I do is calibrate the cue ball to produce NO SPIN after contact.

This produces what I show in the TOI Demonstrations as the "Floating Cue Ball," and that's how a first saw it done by some of the top road players of my time. This is an advanced way to play, however, it's also much more effective and can produce a better touch and feel for the Game.

If i understand correctly, you are saying that Efron is using the correct english to actually counter the spin caused by the cut shot itself to come off object ball with no spin?
The more i read on az, the more I realize I dont know squat about pool. I really need some good lessons.
Chris