Cue Ball rotation after it hits OB

[RBC]

Hello all,
OB on the spot, i have CB about 3 diamonds away with about 30 degrees cut to RH pocket, i shot it with extreme draw 20 times, every time i made sure my tip is 100% center. With this cut i expect OB to have clockwise rotation and CB counterclockwise rotation, but noticed that CB has clockwise after it hits OB, and when deflected from side rail it seem to be killed.


I tried to shoot same spot shot, but the cut angel such that CB go horizontally to side rail to see where it goes after it hits it, to my surprise it spun to near the opposite side pocket

I shot same shots above with stun center CB hit hard, CB did not have much of a spin

So the question is does CB gets same rotation as object ball after a 20 degree or more cut with power draw, or is it the cloth is effecting this.

CB i have is the tournament type with red spots all over it


Thanks.


DR. Dave i searched your site did not find this info, maybe i missed it.,,,

Sorry, but I'm just not certain that you are hitting the center of the cue ball.

I know some very good players, and would bet that they can't hit the 100% exact center. Everyone will always hit at least a little bit to one side or the other.

In your example, cutting the object ball to the right corner pocket, the cue ball should some "check" spin when it hits the rail. If you wan't it to have "running" english then you'd have to use some right hand spin.

 

[naji]

One ball transfers spin to another by rubbing sideways on its surface. That rub can be from either the motion or the spin of the first ball. If the rub gives clockwise spin (left english) to the second ball, the first ball has to get an equal amount of clockwise spin. If the first ball starts with spin before the collision, then the final spin will be the total of what it came in with and what was acquired during the collision.

Which side spin is added to each ball does not depend on whether you have draw or follow on the cue ball.

The same side of spin on the two balls if you start with none is due to the force sideways at the contact point being in opposite directions on the two balls but on opposite "sides" of the two balls.

It's a little confusing that if you want to get right spin on the object ball by spinning the cue ball you need to use left english on the cue ball. The trick is that during the collision some of the spin on the cue ball is used up in making the object ball spin so the cue ball is getting net right english.

Thanks Bob,

There are few conditions:

1. Stun shot CB & OB at an angle, CB hits OB sliding
2. Regular center hit such that CB is 100% rolling then hit OB
3. Extreme power draw shot (100% center), CB has 100% bottom spin when it hits OB
4. Extreme top english (100% center), CB has 100% top spin when it hits OB

From all above i'd say item 1 & 2 CB will have opposite rotation than OB
Items 3 & 4 CB will have same rotation as OB

All 1,2,3, and 4 assuming medium to high speed shot and about two to three diamonds separation between CB & OB

Agree, all posters what do you think..

 

[CJ Wiley]

I make minute adjustments if my object ball isn't hitting the center of the pocket

Sorry, but I'm just not certain that you are hitting the center of the cue ball.

I know some very good players, and would bet that they can't hit the 100% exact center. Everyone will always hit at least a little bit to one side or the other.

In your example, cutting the object ball to the right corner pocket, the cue ball should some "check" spin when it hits the rail. If you wan't it to have "running" english then you'd have to use some right hand spin.

This is true and why many of the champion players learn to favor one side of the center. This way they know for sure which way they miss a ball so they can make any corrections immediately.

I make minute adjustments if my object ball isn't hitting the center of the pocket, and I also use the TOI to get my cue ball to "float" with as little after contact spin as possible.

Especially at the beginning of a match I will make minute adjustments until everything is exactly right and will continue to be aware of two key factors at all times to make sure (problem prevention) I'm hitting the cue ball precisely. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[naji]

This is true and why many of the champion players learn to favor one side of the center. This way they know for sure which way they miss a ball so they can make any corrections immediately.

I make minute adjustments if my object ball isn't hitting the center of the pocket, and I also use the TOI to get my cue ball to "float" with as little after contact spin as possible.

Especially at the beginning of a match I will make minute adjustments until everything is exactly right and will continue to be aware of two key factors at all times to make sure (problem prevention) I'm hitting the cue ball precisely. 'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ with all due respect to you, please do not say things that many of us do not use or deal with, at least say it with some ambiguity like IMO, IMHO.

I do agree with you that TOI helps in aim and in offsetting english on CB, so does TOO it increase english and help pocketing, but that is not how many people play, you know if you hit cue ball center if you chalk marks are correct, have you tried it? I can hit 100% of my draw shots and almost never any side spin, the way i play my tip is very close to CB and almost touches CB before i fire up and always accurate.

 

[ScottK]

CJ with all due respect to you, please do not say things that many of us use or deal with, at least say it with some ambiguity like IMO, IMHO.

I do agree with you that TOI helps in aim and in offsetting english on CB, so does TOO it increase english and help pocketing, but that is not how many people play, you know if you hit cue ball center if you chalk marks are correct, have you tried it? I can hit 100% of my draw shots and almost never any spin, the way i play my tip is very close to CB and almost touches CB before i fire up and always accurate.

Congratulations, naji. You are officially the world's greatest cueist.

This is the second post in which you've choosen to ignore advice from renowned members of the world of cue sports after soliciting said advice. I'm beginning to fear you may be beyond help.

Good thing your stroke is perfect, my friend.

 

[ScottK]

I'd like to add that I don't believe these other factors affect the spin induction in a linear manner.

For example, for a 30 degree cut to the right: a very slow shot will generate some side spin on the CB. A medium speed shot will generate more side spin. But a hard shot may not generate ANY side spin on the CB. This has something to do with the starting friction vs the sliding friction between the two ball surfaces. Perhaps one of our experts will illuminate us with the details.

Again, this is based on my observations, so it may not be 100% correct, but seems to be accurate enough for me.

-Blake

I believe the details you seek are as follows:

The slower the shot speed the greater the duration of contact between the CB and OB, even though only by milliseconds. Greater duration of contact equates to greater transferred or induced spin as well as throw.

If I've misstated anything I hope Mr. Jewett or Mr. Wiley will issue a correction on my behalf.

 

[naji]

Congratulations, naji. You are officially the world's greatest cueist.

This is the second post in which you've choosen to ignore advice from renowned members of the world of cue sports after soliciting said advice. I'm beginning to fear you may be beyond help.

Good thing your stroke is perfect, my friend.

i did not ignore advice, i questioned it, I only been playing for 30 years, something has to get straight!! with fun aside, my tip is 11.5 mm, and i know how sensitive that is, do i miss my tip contact point at times, sure.

Could you please comment on the following if you know for sure, thanks much:

There are few conditions:

1. Stun shot CB & OB at an angle, CB hits OB sliding
2. Regular center hit such that CB is 100% rolling then hit OB
3. Extreme power draw shot (100% center), CB has 100% bottom spin when it hits OB
4. Extreme top english (100% center), CB has 100% top spin when it hits OB

From all above i'd say item 1 & 2 CB will have opposite rotation than OB
Items 3 & 4 CB will have same rotation as OB

All 1,2,3, and 4 assuming medium to high speed shot and about two to three diamonds separation between CB & OB

Agree, or not. Thanks.

 

[ScottK]

i did not ignore advice, i questioned it, I only been playing for 30 years, something has to get straight!! with fun aside, my tip is 11.5 mm, and i know how sensitive that is, do i miss my tip contact point at times, sure.

Could you please comment on the following if you know for sure, thanks much:

There are few conditions:

1. Stun shot CB & OB at an angle, CB hits OB sliding
2. Regular center hit such that CB is 100% rolling then hit OB
3. Extreme power draw shot (100% center), CB has 100% bottom spin when it hits OB
4. Extreme top english (100% center), CB has 100% top spin when it hits OB

From all above i'd say item 1 & 2 CB will have opposite rotation than OB
Items 3 & 4 CB will have same rotation as OB

All 1,2,3, and 4 assuming medium to high speed shot and about two to three diamonds separation between CB & OB

Agree, or not. Thanks.

I will gladly comment, but I don't have time right now. I need to get in the shower and head out. But it probably behooves me to ask if English is your first language before I respond. I don't mean any offense by asking, but the tone of my response is probably somewhat dependent on your answer.

 

[naji]

I will gladly comment, but I don't have time right now. I need to get in the shower and head out. But it probably behooves me to ask if English is your first language before I respond. I don't mean any offense by asking, but the tone of my response is probably somewhat dependent on your answer.

Thanks again, English is not my native language, however, i speak nothing but English, been in the US for over 30 years, my two sons speak nothing but English go figure!!
Truthfully all i need is CB rotate same or opposite for my four cases, i do not need any explanation for why, if all same answer that is fine. Thanks

 

[victorl]

Question for the op, when you shoot the same shot from the opposite side, does the cue ball react the same way?

 

[CJ Wiley]

rying to hit the center isn't ideal because you can't create "zones"

CJ with all due respect to you, please do not say things that many of us do not use or deal with, at least say it with some ambiguity like IMO, IMHO.

I do agree with you that TOI helps in aim and in offsetting english on CB, so does TOO it increase english and help pocketing, but that is not how many people play, you know if you hit cue ball center if you chalk marks are correct, have you tried it? I can hit 100% of my draw shots and almost never any side spin, the way i play my tip is very close to CB and almost touches CB before i fire up and always accurate.

I have difficulty believing you can hit the exact center every time. And besides, why would you want to? Trying to hit the center isn't ideal because you can't create "zones", and if you are a champion player you would certainly know what zones are and how they are created. Just like golf, tennis, baseball and even football, increasing margin of error is done by manipulating the straight path of the ball.

This can be done either by spin or deflection. In pool I prefer deflection because it takes less calculations than spin. Don't kid yourself, there's not any champion players that don't know how to "work" the cue ball to maximize his pocket zone. Earl Strickland has told me on many occasions that this (altering the cue ball's path) is what separates the "greats" from the "not so greats" (I'm paraphrasing of course) 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[ScottK]

Thanks again, English is not my native language, however, i speak nothing but English, been in the US for over 30 years, my two sons speak nothing but English go figure!!
Truthfully all i need is CB rotate same or opposite for my four cases, i do not need any explanation for why, if all same answer that is fine. Thanks

OK, I suspected it wasn't and in frustration I was getting close to using an unnecessarily harsh "tone" in my response.

So here it goes:

Bob Jewett is undoubtedly an expert on the game. Please re-read his post:
One ball transfers spin to another by rubbing sideways on its surface. That rub can be from either the motion or the spin of the first ball. If the rub gives clockwise spin (left english) to the second ball, the first ball has to get an equal amount of clockwise spin. If the first ball starts with spin before the collision, then the final spin will be the total of what it came in with and what was acquired during the collision.

Which side spin is added to each ball does not depend on whether you have draw or follow on the cue ball.

The same side of spin on the two balls if you start with none is due to the force sideways at the contact point being in opposite directions on the two balls but on opposite "sides" of the two balls.

It's a little confusing that if you want to get right spin on the object ball by spinning the cue ball you need to use left english on the cue ball. The trick is that during the collision some of the spin on the cue ball is used up in making the object ball spin so the cue ball is getting net right english.

I realize this may be difficult to understand if English is not your first language.

In short, a cue ball struck dead center will have no side spin when it leaves the tip of the cue. When the cue ball strikes an object ball, both balls will pick up some spin in the same direction. That is to say they will both begin to rotate slightly due to the friction between them at impact, but they will always rotate in the same direction.

As Mr. Jewett mentions, draw and follow play no part whatsoever in this interaction. If you are hitting these cut shots and the cue ball is rotating in the opposite direction of the object ball, you did not hit the center of the cue ball. You imparted that opposite spin when you struck the cue ball.

I understand you believe you are always hitting center cue ball, but you are not. Your observation of the cue ball and object ball prove as much. The cue ball doesn't lie. For you to suggest you are hitting dead center every time when a world class player like CJ Wiley has mentioned numerous times his reasons for not even attempting to do so is preposterous. You are striking the cue ball left or right of the vertical axis. Period. The matter is not up for discussion.

My advice is to forget the follow and draw. Bob told you they don't matter and you either did not understand him or you ignored him. I'll tell you again... they do not matter in so much as the questions you've raised in this thread. In all likelihood, in your attempt to put extreme follow or draw on the shot you are striking it off center.

To answer your four questions (which you answered for yourself when you said "if all same answer that is fine") yes, the answer is the same in all four cases. Roll, stun, and draw on the cue ball will all result in it spinning in the same direction as the object ball after impact as long as you've struck the vertical axis of the cue ball (ie. no side spin).

I hope this helps and I've avoided coming across as too harsh. If you have any other questions, by all means ask. And, as always, if I've misstated something someone please correct me.

Scott

 

[naji]

OK, I suspected it wasn't and in frustration I was getting close to using an unnecessarily harsh "tone" in my response.

So here it goes:

Bob Jewett is undoubtedly an expert on the game. Please re-read his post:
One ball transfers spin to another by rubbing sideways on its surface. That rub can be from either the motion or the spin of the first ball. If the rub gives clockwise spin (left english) to the second ball, the first ball has to get an equal amount of clockwise spin. If the first ball starts with spin before the collision, then the final spin will be the total of what it came in with and what was acquired during the collision.

Which side spin is added to each ball does not depend on whether you have draw or follow on the cue ball.

The same side of spin on the two balls if you start with none is due to the force sideways at the contact point being in opposite directions on the two balls but on opposite "sides" of the two balls.

It's a little confusing that if you want to get right spin on the object ball by spinning the cue ball you need to use left english on the cue ball. The trick is that during the collision some of the spin on the cue ball is used up in making the object ball spin so the cue ball is getting net right english.

I realize this may be difficult to understand if English is not your first language.

In short, a cue ball struck dead center will have no side spin when it leaves the tip of the cue. When the cue ball strikes an object ball, both balls will pick up some spin in the same direction. That is to say they will both begin to rotate slightly due to the friction between them at impact, but they will always rotate in the same direction.

As Mr. Jewett mentions, draw and follow play no part whatsoever in this interaction. If you are hitting these cut shots and the cue ball is rotating in the opposite direction of the object ball, you did not hit the center of the cue ball. You imparted that opposite spin when you struck the cue ball.

I understand you believe you are always hitting center cue ball, but you are not. Your observation of the cue ball and object ball prove as much. The cue ball doesn't lie. For you to suggest you are hitting dead center every time when a world class player like CJ Wiley has mentioned numerous times his reasons for not even attempting to do so is preposterous. You are striking the cue ball left or right of the vertical axis. Period. The matter is not up for discussion.

My advice is to forget the follow and draw. Bob told you they don't matter and you either did not understand him or you ignored him. I'll tell you again... they do not matter in so much as the questions you've raised in this thread. In all likelihood, in your attempt to put extreme follow or draw on the shot you are striking it off center.

To answer your four questions (which you answered for yourself when you said "if all same answer that is fine") yes, the answer is the same in all four cases. Roll, stun, and draw on the cue ball will all result in it spinning in the same direction as the object ball after impact as long as you've struck the vertical axis of the cue ball (ie. no side spin).

I hope this helps and I've avoided coming across as too harsh. If you have any other questions, by all means ask. And, as always, if I've misstated something someone please correct me.

Scott

Thanks for the lengthy reply, i highly appreciated and thank you for keeping it civil, i respect Bob Jewett, he probably already there at highest level there could be in pool, i am not, therefore, i have the right to question his or anyone's findings, until i concede or he is wrong (oh God forbid). But really thank you for taking the time to reply.


Just to add, i double checked my tip contact accuracy, when i draw the CB on 100% straight shot back to a rail CB rebound in expected manner, roughly same angle in same angle out which tells me my tip contact point is accurate..

 

[naji]

I have difficulty believing you can hit the exact center every time. And besides, why would you want to? Trying to hit the center isn't ideal because you can't create "zones", and if you are a champion player you would certainly know what zones are and how they are created. Just like golf, tennis, baseball and even football, increasing margin of error is done by manipulating the straight path of the ball.

This can be done either by spin or deflection. In pool I prefer deflection because it takes less calculations than spin. Don't kid yourself, there's not any champion players that don't know how to "work" the cue ball to maximize his pocket zone. Earl Strickland has told me on many occasions that this (altering the cue ball's path) is what separates the "greats" from the "not so greats" (I'm paraphrasing of course) 'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ my zones is in where I aim, sure if i need english i will use it, but why introduce another variable in a game where consistency depends on less variables involved. You and many others questioned my draw tip contact shot accuracy, what makes you think i will be able to put just a TOI, it is same thing, too much, i deflect a lot, too little i deflect less, i let go of my stroke, speed, elevated, distance........you name it will cause CB path go to an unintended target. As far as Earl's statement, one could interpret it in many different ways.

Why would i question pros ability in using english, i know they cannot reach that level without knowing all the secrets of the game; sure some use better judgment in applying it or not to match their own ability.

I do not like it when people bring the Golf, tennis, baseball, football, dart, archery example to compare to pool.. all are 100% different games than pool, you aim at an area with great margin of error, to make those games comparable you have to put implant a ball same size as golf ball to the club iron, or tennis ball to racket....etc, and make the target much smaller, now we are on same level. Dart and archery have small target, but its aiming is well defined point (one level aim), not a ball hitting another ball at exact pin point, and then ball go to target (two level aim). This is what makes pool game much harder than all.

 

[robsnotes4u]

Confused

One ball transfers spin to another by rubbing sideways on its surface. That rub can be from either the motion or the spin of the first ball. If the rub gives clockwise spin (left english) to the second ball, the first ball has to get an equal amount of clockwise spin. If the first ball starts with spin before the collision, then the final spin will be the total of what it came in with and what was acquired during the collision.

Which side spin is added to each ball does not depend on whether you have draw or follow on the cue ball.

The same side of spin on the two balls if you start with none is due to the force sideways at the contact point being in opposite directions on the two balls but on opposite "sides" of the two balls.

It's a little confusing that if you want to get right spin on the object ball by spinning the cue ball you need to use left english on the cue ball. The trick is that during the collision some of the spin on the cue ball is used up in making the object ball spin so the cue ball is getting net right english.

may be I am not reading this right or I just don't understand. If I am cutting the object ball to the right, and I hit center cueball, wouldn't the balls react like this.

1. The forward force of the cueball rubs the object ball putting a clockwise spin on the object ball. A gear effect occurs putting counter clockwise effect on the cue ball?

 

[Bob Jewett]

may be I am not reading this right or I just don't understand. If I am cutting the object ball to the right, and I hit center cueball, wouldn't the balls react like this.

1. The forward force of the cueball rubs the object ball putting a clockwise spin on the object ball. A gear effect occurs putting counter clockwise effect on the cue ball?

No, that's not what happens for a no-spin cue ball. The cue ball will end up with outside english. The object ball will have the same side of english. You need to think of which direction the surface of each ball is rubbed.

This is easy to demonstrate with combination shots.

 

[mikepage]

may be I am not reading this right or I just don't understand. If I am cutting the object ball to the right, and I hit center cueball, wouldn't the balls react like this.

1. The forward force of the cueball rubs the object ball putting a clockwise spin on the object ball. A gear effect occurs putting counter clockwise effect on the cue ball?

The force on the cueball is equal and opposite (Newton's third law) to the force on the object ball. But, counterintuitively, this puts clockwise spin on both balls. In this example, a there is a forward force on the LEFT side of the object ball and a backwards force on the RIGHT side of the cueball. So both forces lead to clockwise motion.

 

[robsnotes4u]

thanks

No, that's not what happens for a no-spin cue ball. The cue ball will end up with outside english. The object ball will have the same side of english. You need to think of which direction the surface of each ball is rubbed.

This is easy to demonstrate with combination shots.

Thanks Bob, and I could have just asked Mike Page next time I was at the pool room, as I see he also answered after you. Goes to show how what we think happens don't always happen, even though it seems logical.

 

[naji]

Thanks Bob, and I could have just asked Mike Page next time I was at the pool room, as I see he also answered after you. Goes to show how what we think happens don't always happen, even though it seems logical.

Thanks Bob, Mike, and robsnotes, rob your question to Bob what prompt me to post the original question, i always though like you did opposite, no wonder i was scratching in the side on simple draw to side rail shot, but hay the pros are right always. Actually, i put the CB against six OB all touching and put lots of chalk on all of them including CB, the CB got loaded with clockwise spin same as ball next to it.
It looked as if when i put draw english, CB gets more clockwise rotation, this could be arguable i guess.

 

[CJ Wiley]

even with center ball you still get outside English after contact

CJ my zones is in where I aim, sure if i need english i will use it, but why introduce another variable in a game where consistency depends on less variables involved. You and many others questioned my draw tip contact shot accuracy, what makes you think i will be able to put just a TOI, it is same thing, too much, i deflect a lot, too little i deflect less, i let go of my stroke, speed, elevated, distance........you name it will cause CB path go to an unintended target. As far as Earl's statement, one could interpret it in many different ways.

Why would i question pros ability in using english, i know they cannot reach that level without knowing all the secrets of the game; sure some use better judgment in applying it or not to match their own ability.

I do not like it when people bring the Golf, tennis, baseball, football, dart, archery example to compare to pool.. all are 100% different games than pool, you aim at an area with great margin of error, to make those games comparable you have to put implant a ball same size as golf ball to the club iron, or tennis ball to racket....etc, and make the target much smaller, now we are on same level. Dart and archery have small target, but its aiming is well defined point (one level aim), not a ball hitting another ball at exact pin point, and then ball go to target (two level aim). This is what makes pool game much harder than all.

I don't question just your accuracy, I question everyone's accuracy when it comes to hitting the exact center. If I had to rely on hitting the exact center without deviating the line of the cue ball intentionally I would be playing a MUCH more difficult than the way I have explained.

Bob explained something that many player over look is even with center ball you still get outside English after contact. I've stated that when I ask Efren what he did that was better than the American players he said "NO SPIN," and this did not mean "center ball," because that does produce spin. I don't measure the after contact spin with any slow motion cameras, what I do is calibrate the cue ball to produce NO SPIN after contact.

This produces what I show in the TOI Demonstrations as the "Floating Cue Ball," and that's how a first saw it done by some of the top road players of my time. This is an advanced way to play, however, it's also much more effective and can produce a better touch and feel for the Game.