cue collectors and buyers are their own worse enemy.

[lorider]

my thread about cue makers ...case makers and table mechanics is getting hi jacked at this moment so i felt compelled to start this thread.

in that thread i mentioned certain cue makers who had a sterling reputation for doing what they say they are going to do in a timely manner. this morning i received some disturbing message about one of those cue makers. before i go any farther i want to mention that more than once i have read on here where certain posters have bad dealings with certain cue makers and do not want to name names.

a lot of posters have replied that the cue maker in question should be outed to save some one else from going through the same thing. i agree whole heartedly with that sentiment.

how ever i can understand the posters plight in reuctance to name said cuemakers. all too often when some one does come forth and share their bad experience quite a few of you jump on and lambast the poster to hell and back and some go as far as to call the poster an out right liar.

some of you may feel you are in the right for defending said cuemaker. i think the reasons may vary.
1. you yourself had no problem with said cue maker.
2. said cue maker eventually made it right .....no matter how long it took so he gets a pass.
3. said cue maker make a helluva cue so he gats a pass.
4. you own a cue from said cue maker and don;t want to see his reputation go down the drain...along with the value of your cue.
5. you are on his list and want to make brownie points ....and don;t want to see the value of your future cue drop.

probly a shit load more reasons but you get my point.

in essence you are enabling the cue maker to go on his merry way shafting your fellow cue buyers and maybe even yourself down the line because you want to disregard the truth or maybe think it won't happen to you.

perfect example is the deal with tikkler and the cue maker whose name escapes me right now but you all know who i am talking about.

several years before the tikkler fiasco this cue maker was named in a bad deal. this poster was lambasted to hell and back. a while later another poster came forward and the same thing happened. as a result a few more posters had a bad deal and it was not until the tikkler fiasco did the truth finally come out . i the incident with tikkler and others previously could have been avoided if buyers had heeded the 1st posters warning.

for whatever reason some threads are deleted when a person does come on giving a warning.

with the above situations arising i do understand some posters reluctancein coming forward.

i do not know what the answer is but there does need to be a legitimate way to prevent buyers from getting the shaft from certain cue makers.

 

[phil dade]

You hijacked your other thread by naming people with which you have no direct experience and then other people with no direct experience joined in.

In this thread the point is made, correctly, that feedback is needed from people directly with experience. These are the only people with credible comments unless it is something that happened t someone you know well and are sure of the circumstances...not just AZ comments.

 

[lorider]

You hijacked your other thread by naming people with which you have no direct experience and then other people with no direct experience joined in.

In this thread the point is made, correctly, that feedback is needed from people directly with experience. These are the only people with credible comments unless it is something that happened t someone you know well and are sure of the circumstances...not just AZ comments.

well excuse me.... i did not know it was wrong to voice your opinion ....based on what the cue maker , or case maker himself typed in a thread. i am not talking about what this person or that person said.....i am talking about having an opinion on what the cue maker him self typed.

in the case of john showman ...he him self typed he has never finished a cue on time in 20 years. its wrong for me to come on this forum and give my opinion on he never finishes his work on time.?


oookaaaayy. :smile:

 

[lorider]

You hijacked your other thread by naming people with which you have no direct experience and then other people with no direct experience joined in.

In this thread the point is made, correctly, that feedback is needed from people directly with experience. These are the only people with credible comments unless it is something that happened t someone you know well and are sure of the circumstances...not just AZ comments.

another thing.... :grin-square:

this thread was started due to some one notifying me about a bad deal with a certain cue maker. according to this person who states he paid a substantil amount of money up front several years ago has had no contact with this certain cue maker in over 2 years due to failed communication from the cue maker.

i did not and will not divulge the name of the cue maker or the poster as i feel it is not my place to. see we do agree on that much. :grin-square:

i do understand this reluctance to come forward as the cue maker involved is highly regarded on this forum. based on previous threads i believe this poster would be bashed to hell and back from quite a few people on this forum.

i started this thread to bring to light the problem quite a few people face concerning cue makers in general and certain ones in particular.

i do hope people on here can look at them selves in the mirror and realize we all are part of the problem and can work together to come up with a solution.

 

[lorider]

370 views and no one has any suggestions on how to solve this dilemma with bad cue maker experience

 

[Rockin' Robin]

Good cue maker or bad....sterling reputation or not....quit playing the guessing game and let the cat out of the bag for petes sake.

Nothing worse on these forums than......Hey guess what.....Sorry I can't tell you.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Why not start a cue-maker review section on the Forum....not another gallery for showing off cues......actual reviews of a cue-maker's performance.......cue was made right, delivered on time, bad or good customer service, etc.

The challenge is this new section might start getting abused but keep the section arranged alphabetically by cue-maker name......want to see the latest comments on Diveney, Segen, Harris, Cohen, etc., just go to the cue-maker section and look up the cue-maker name....alphabetically arranged and then by date order within the cue-maker thread........it will start with only a couple of names but it will grow and some good input and meaningful information can get developed.

I suggested a cue-maker section before but there wasn't much interest.......how many more bad cue-makers does it take before something gets done.......self-policing works when the people involved are genuine, honest and interested in seeing that the right thing gets done.......If I spotted someone posting shit about cue-maker x and I was thinking of hiring that cue-maker to build me a cue, I'd certainly think twice and make sure I wasn't unintentionally ordering a headache instead of my custom cue.......JMO.

Matt B.

 

[Straightpool_99]

Pretty simple really. Lets say a cuebuilder is skilled and aquires a reputation. Then he overextends himself, starts slacking off or in classic style decides that he is God and can do whatever he wants. Now you have dealers and collectors sitting on expensive cues, or have orders that are half paid etc. These investments are now worth less because nobody will buy a cue that cannot for instance be repaired or refinished without going through hell, without significantly lowering their bid. Profit for the flippers/dealers requires top dollar. Getting repairs and refinishes from other builders will lower the value.

So all these investors rally behind the cuemaker to protect their investments. They discredit the person who has complaints, make menacing or friendly phone calls to the guy behind the scenes and if nothing works have the thread pulled. How many times do you see threads like that just go away, quietly. Often with significant signs of backroom deals going on behind the scenes, dozens of phonecalls etc...Status quo is protected. Hooray....

 

[Drawman623]

We've seen threads like this before. Some well and some not so well articulated points about the plight of the player/collector who places his hopes and sometimes cash in a cue builder's hands only to be disappointed after a longer than expected wait.

Many of us have been there and have some valid principles to hold up from our soap boxes.

Who among those that feel frustration about a missed delivery date has gone so far as to build a cue or write some code? I for one learned some respect as I tried to cut inlays and pockets in Dieckman's shop or with Art Cantando in his basement. It is wood, ivory and shell people...to build a cue precisely and in a timely manner takes profound talent and perhaps some luck too. And none of this considers availability of components and materials. Artisan's health, their family needs, shop floods, car accidents... it can go on and on.

The thread I would most like to see is the one where the buyer fully appreciates the respect due a master cuemaker. A national champion once lamented, somewhat crassly, "pool is the oonly sport where you can take a piss right next to the best player in the world." His point is well taken, and articulated by many pro players...where is the respect? Where are the sponsors? Where is the appreciation? Where is the cash? Of cue making, I might ask "where is the tolerance."

I'd expect to wait a lifetime to acquire a Strativarious. Why should the pool cue equivalent be any different. Its done when its done. Its available when offered, and sometimes at a price that reflects the current market rather than the one at the time of order.

If you want the best and you want it now...see a broker and pay for it. If you want to buy direct, accept the fact that you're not dealing with a stable process. Handshake agreements and written contracts can't change many of the events that complicate a delivery date so why expect them to? Sure some builders promise things then allow themselves to get in over their heads... who guaranteed the buyer that every artist craftsman was also an organized businessman. Who assured the buyer that the artisan is even in their right mind?

As the OP said, there are many stellar builders who make their deadlines consistently. If that is essential to you then place your order with one of them. If you want work from a master, you must wait it out like the rest of us...endure the missed dates like the rest of us and accept that such is part of the cost of seeking a master's work.

I have 2 cues on order now...1 is at 12 years with no deposit and the other is almost 10years and is fully paid. I'm long past sucking up here. I think it is time to reconsider expectations if you're buying a cue from a top tier builder.

 

[iusedtoberich]

An amazon type rating system would be good.

It could be rated for the quality of the cue, and if the cue maker did what he said, at the price and timeline he quoted.

Now, no cue maker would have a perfect rating, just like in Amazon nothing is perfect rating there.

But, the consumer could see that X cue maker has 90/100 good quality ratings, 70/100 on time ratings, and 90/100 on budget ratings.

Then, cue maker Y might have 90/100 good quality ratings, 10/100 on time ratings, and 50/100 on budget ratings.

This type of system would make the buyer informed, and because no one would be perfect, the prior customers would not be worried about posting a negative review.

IMO of course.

 

[lorider]

Good cue maker or bad....sterling reputation or not....quit playing the guessing game and let the cat out of the bag for petes sake.

Nothing worse on these forums than......Hey guess what.....Sorry I can't tell you.

are you refering to me ? if so yea i am sorry i can not name the cue maker . as i stated in post 4....its not my place to name names. the customer involved is the only one who has the right to name the cue maker he is currently having a bad experince with.

under the current climate on this forum ( which i hope this thread helps start a movement to change it ) , if the customer involved was to post on here his experience so far. he would be riducled .... disputed...called a liar ...etc, etc.

now what would happaen if i did state the customers experience and name the guilty cue maker.....with you knowing i have only 2nd hand knowledge ? the backlash i received from certain people on here would be worse the what the customer involved would receive.

also ....some that may believe the customer because they may have had a similar experience with him may still have a hard time believing me because i was not involved in said transaction.

 

[lorider]

Why not start a cue-maker review section on the Forum....not another gallery for showing off cues......actual reviews of a cue-maker's performance.......cue was made right, delivered on time, bad or good customer service, etc.

The challenge is this new section might start getting abused but keep the section arranged alphabetically by cue-maker name......want to see the latest comments on Diveney, Segen, Harris, Cohen, etc., just go to the cue-maker section and look up the cue-maker name....alphabetically arranged and then by date order within the cue-maker thread........it will start with only a couple of names but it will grow and some good input and meaningful information can get developed.

I suggested a cue-maker section before but there wasn't much interest.......how many more bad cue-makers does it take before something gets done.......self-policing works when the people involved are genuine, honest and interested in seeing that the right thing gets done.......If I spotted someone posting shit about cue-maker x and I was thinking of hiring that cue-maker to build me a cue, I'd certainly think twice and make sure I wasn't unintentionally ordering a headache instead of my custom cue.......JMO.

Matt B.

very good suggestion. :thumbup:

the thing is ....certain people are gonna call you out if you happen to post negative remarks about whoever is that poster favorite flavor at the time. the next thing you know the thread starts a pissing contest then the thread gets deleted.

i see no problem if poster a says i had a bad experience with cue maker x......poster b replies....well i had a good experience with cue maker x.


some people can not leave it at that and then its gets pretty personal and the thread is deleted .....losing a lot of good info for or against said cuemaker ...sadly. thats what happened to ken 4 fun's thread. i do agree ken got too personal by describing showmans living conditions and do agree wilson needed to delete that info....but not the entire thread.

why not just leave the thread but delete posts that get too personal.

 

[lorider]

Pretty simple really. Lets say a cuebuilder is skilled and aquires a reputation. Then he overextends himself, starts slacking off or in classic style decides that he is God and can do whatever he wants. Now you have dealers and collectors sitting on expensive cues, or have orders that are half paid etc. These investments are now worth less because nobody will buy a cue that cannot for instance be repaired or refinished without going through hell, without significantly lowering their bid. Profit for the flippers/dealers requires top dollar. Getting repairs and refinishes from other builders will lower the value.

So all these investors rally behind the cuemaker to protect their investments. They discredit the person who has complaints, make menacing or friendly phone calls to the guy behind the scenes and if nothing works have the thread pulled. How many times do you see threads like that just go away, quietly. Often with significant signs of backroom deals going on behind the scenes, dozens of phonecalls etc...Status quo is protected. Hooray....

exactly what i was refering to but you went into more detail. :thumbup:

 

[lorider]

We've seen threads like this before. Some well and some not so well articulated points about the plight of the player/collector who places his hopes and sometimes cash in a cue builder's hands only to be disappointed after a longer than expected wait.

Many of us have been there and have some valid principles to hold up from our soap boxes.

Who among those that feel frustration about a missed delivery date has gone so far as to build a cue or write some code? I for one learned some respect as I tried to cut inlays and pockets in Dieckman's shop or with Art Cantando in his basement. It is wood, ivory and shell people...to build a cue precisely and in a timely manner takes profound talent and perhaps some luck too. And none of this considers availability of components and materials. Artisan's health, their family needs, shop floods, car accidents... it can go on and on.

The thread I would most like to see is the one where the buyer fully appreciates the respect due a master cuemaker. A national champion once lamented, somewhat crassly, "pool is the oonly sport where you can take a piss right next to the best player in the world." His point is well taken, and articulated by many pro players...where is the respect? Where are the sponsors? Where is the appreciation? Where is the cash? Of cue making, I might ask "where is the tolerance."

I'd expect to wait a lifetime to acquire a Strativarious. Why should the pool cue equivalent be any different. Its done when its done. Its available when offered, and sometimes at a price that reflects the current market rather than the one at the time of order.

If you want the best and you want it now...see a broker and pay for it. If you want to buy direct, accept the fact that you're not dealing with a stable process. Handshake agreements and written contracts can't change many of the events that complicate a delivery date so why expect them to? Sure some builders promise things then allow themselves to get in over their heads... who guaranteed the buyer that every artist craftsman was also an organized businessman. Who assured the buyer that the artisan is even in their right mind?

As the OP said, there are many stellar builders who make their deadlines consistently. If that is essential to you then place your order with one of them. If you want work from a master, you must wait it out like the rest of us...endure the missed dates like the rest of us and accept that such is part of the cost of seeking a master's work.

I have 2 cues on order now...1 is at 12 years with no deposit and the other is almost 10years and is fully paid. I'm long past sucking up here. I think it is time to reconsider expectations if you're buying a cue from a top tier builder.

great post . :smile:

my gripe is not about how long it takes a cue maker to complete a job. i am well aware of the difference between the general publics time and cue makers time

my gripe is about the failure of certain people doing what they say they are gonna do when they say they are gonna do it.

it amazes me that people on here defend certain individuals because.
1.you are wrong..he is not that way because i did not have a problem with him .
2. he is an artist.
3. trying to save said cuemakers reputation because.....they have a cue from him and don't want to see the value drop or trying to get brownie points because they are on his list.
4.etc...etc...etc

bavonfongouls suggestion has some merit.

i would like to see where i could pull up a cue makers review section that i might want to get a cue from.

1. i want to know if his quality is as good as some say it is
2. i want to know how long his wait period normally is
3. i want to know if he is habituallly late and how late on average.
4. i want to know if he requires a deposit and if so how hard is it to get my deposit back if he fails to start my cue when promised. .
5. i want to know....is he suddenly hard to get ahold of when my due date arrivves.

6.quite a few other things i want to know but mainly ....does he do what he says he is gonna do when he says he is gonna do it.:grin-square:

sure you are gonna have people with opposing opinions about certain cue makers but if you had a cue makers review section you could look at what other peoples experience was....either good or bad and make your own decision on whether to hire him or not.