Cue Collectors Association ?????

[classiccues]

Well some real good ideas floating around...

But lets talk production cues.. one of the more popular collectible cues happens to be a production cue.... Palmer.

Would you say a Palmer cue collector doesn't have a collection?

Secondly.. a collection to one person maynot be a collection to another person. Everyone has different criteria. I think you should pick a number..4, 8 12? Who knows what constitues a collector?

Maybe you need a "class" of collector, but not based on the cues but the number of cues.. a bronze collector may have 10-15 cues.. a silver collector 16-25, a gold collector 26-35 a platnium collector 50+.. just ideas...

Joe

 

[blud]

good

Celtic,

You've changed my mind on the votes, I see where you're coming from now. I, like you, am no expert in cue collecting. I would probably be in the silver or gold category.

Large extavogent "collections" should be just that a personal collection. Not dealers trying to sell their cues.

If you you look at my previous statement, what I meant by a Gallery cue would be one that would allow entrance into the different levels of membership and would allowed to be showcased in a "gallery" section. I think we're talking about the same thing just two different ways.

I think our goals and visions are basically along the same lines.

Jim

Jim, I agree with you, quote, {NOT DEALERS TRYING TO SELL THERE CUES} This should include Cuemakers as well, in my opinion.

Cuemakers will pitch there cues of course, dealers will vote for and list cues they have in stock, or in some cases, vote for cues they like,and are selling the most of.

Keep it fair for all.
This is gonna be one tough one to put together. Making all involved happy and hurting no ones feelings.

Drawing that line on how too and what not too do?
I wish all who work on this topic, well.

good luck to all of you good folks.

blud

 

[classiccues]

I would not go so far as omitting those who dont have a cue collection from the membership, but those without any collection to speak of are really just there to observe and are likely not to have anywhere near the knowledge of the true collectors.=/

Really?!?!? I don't have a cue collection, want to go head to head on cue knowledge, especially on older cues.. I am serious, I own a Skip, and a Gus Szamboti, I play with both. I admittingly am not a collector. But to say I don't have the knowledge of a true collector, well thats a bit of a stretch. In fact in my dealings I would say many collectors don't have some basic knowledge. The only reason I say basic knowledge is, like I said before, if a guy collects 12 Meucci's because he likes them, is that any less of a collection than a guy with 12 Balabushkas. Both like their collections, and both probably collected cues in their price ranges.
First thing, you say you don't want to be snobbish. Then you cannot discriminate against anyone. You also must define collection.

Joe

 

[Celtic]

Maybe you need a "class" of collector, but not based on the cues but the number of cues.. a bronze collector may have 10-15 cues.. a silver collector 16-25, a gold collector 26-35 a platnium collector 50+.. just ideas...

Well, since it would hopefully be open to all people interested the bronze membership should start at 1-15, then the other numbers works fine. Going strickly off numbers I dont like much though due to the fact someone with 4 Gina cues, 3 Richard Black, 2 Joss West, 2 Franklin era Southwest, 1 DKP, 2 Cogniscenti, has a collection of mad value yet they are bronze? Someone else could have a bunch of dufferin, a couple joss, a couple Mcdermott, brunswick, and other alot cheaper cues and be a silver or even gold or platinum member yet with a "collection" of cues that does not even have the value or actual "collectability" of a single $25,000 Gina Cue in the bronze members collection.

Large extavogent "collections" should be just that a personal collection. Not dealers trying to sell their cues.

agreed.

let's not forget about memorabilia(SP?), plenty of collectors out there, cue cases as well.

Yeah, I would say cues are a huge enough collection item to justify their own club. I think the intrigue of the club is it's focus on a single form of artistic impression in our sport that has collectable and monetary value. I would not want the club to be multifaceted in the collection of various things from all over the pool world, tons of ivory balls, flyers from matches in the old days, antique tables. I agree all that stuff is out there but I would rather the club focus only on cues and "maybe" cases fit as they are very connected and some cases are even sold with cues in similar designs. There is too much stuff out there, letting any collectable item into the club makes it not a "cue collectors" club but changes the club into some kind of a massive mandate club with a gallery that is like a curio case with gobs of oddites from the past that have anything to do with pool.

I'm against the weighting of membership votes, etc. in all cases. all members should be welcomed equally, the guy with the fiberglass cue today may become the balabushka buyer in the future due to his club membership experience.

Membership level would not be static. If a person's collection changes so can their level of membership. The fact someone can be a member with their fiberglass cue is important just for the reason you stated, they can sit and talk and hang on the forums and look at the galleries and one day maybe they to will buy a fancy collectable cue to feel proud of and show off to the club. And when such happens they are welcomed to a little higher spot in the club due to their greater involvment in the area of cue collecting.

Really?!?!? I don't have a cue collection, want to go head to head on cue knowledge, especially on older cues.. I am serious, I own a Skip, and a Gus Szamboti, I play with both. I admittingly am not a collector. But to say I don't have the knowledge of a true collector

Well I did add the "likely" to the quote to allow for exceptions and what an exception you are, you shoot with a classic cue that rivals a Balabushka in name recognition from the old school . I would say your "shooter" is collectable enough that you would qualify for a silver membership at least, just because a cue is being played with and is not locked up in a air tight low light showcase does not make it any less a collectable.

This is where a major problem lies though. I want EVERYONE to be able to join the club as long as the person owns one single cue, even a $50 dufferin they shoot with at the pub. These people should be members and have abit of actual power, even though they are not active members in that they dont have a collection or collectable cue to offer as display. At the same time though, if this club got huge there would be TONNES of people at the lower end of the scale. There are hundreds of thousands of players out there with their own cues, but there is a small fraction of those people with a custom made cue, and even less with a collectable cue. Some of those people with no cue collection are likely to be knowledgeable, but on average it is more then likely that the people with the huge cue collections have more knowledge and more stake in a cue collecting organization.

What I would hate to see is the non-cue collecting majority forcing policy over the wishes of a cue colecting minority since the cue collectors are the actual reason for the club to begin with.

What about fees? Did I overlook this or has it not been mentioned. Fees would help off set the website and advertising!

This actually becomes more and more of a good idea. This would make sure the people who joined the organization would have a interest in it and not join because "its free and I get to look at cool cues". If there was a small membership fee like $5 or $10 a year then I find the voting scheme would be less of a problem because the people who joined would be showing alot more interest in the organization then if it was as simple to join as a yahoo message board.

Only thing I worry about, the huge cue collector with a massive collection who does not feel he should have to pay to join a organization where he is actually showing the world his cues he has paid huge gobs of money for. It would be a principle thing I could see one or 2 people feeling.


Anyways, lots of good talk. Lots of varying opinion on afew things.

 

[Celtic]

OK I have a new idea I just thought up, let me know what you all think.

What if we made every single cue collectable and worthy of the gallery, but we had levels of cues. Therefore we have level 1 cues, level 2 cues, level 3 cues, level 4 cues, and level 5 cues. The level would simply be how "collectable" a cue is, based on the rareity, the maker, the age, ect... all those factors we can think of.

Then we can break the gallery up into the sections. If a person wants to only see the prize specimens then they look at the level 5 cues, they wont see any dufferins or cuetec. On the other hand looking at all levels one could see every cue submitted and which section it was placed into.

The dufferins of the world likely being level 1 along with the cuetecs and such.

The higher end production cues that are not that rare, the Meucci, Schon, Joss, ect... all probably being in the level 2 range (the extremely plain samples probably being level 1 while the "really" fancy ones may push to level 3).

Level 3 would be your common custom cues and the really high end rarer production cues, the schon limited may fit here, the more simple custom cues that are made in multiples so they are not rare or 1 of a kind.

Level 4 would be getting into the more fancy of custom work, the higher end names of collectable makers, some of their fairly fancy work, yet not those showcase pieces. Some of this level could be 1 of a kind designed stuff.

Level 5, those truely awesome totally collectable cues. This is where your Rhapsody in Blue by Richard Black would be, the hugely intricate Cogniscenti, the high end Blud, the high end stuff of Gina Cue, Those showcase cues that the Bluebook likes to taunt us with.

In those levels would also be the collectable older cues, the cues that may not be fancy but are collectable due to their age or the maker of course would make their way into the higher levels despite simple design. A plain jane Bushka is still gonna be level 5 due to the fact one cannot get alot more collectable. Some of those ancient butterfly point cues from the 1920's such as seen in the first bluebook.

This gives us a added ability to rank the collection as to how collectable it is and what level a person would be in the club. It does allow for a person with "ANY" type of cue to be considered a collector though and all of their cues would be shown in the proper gallery.


What do ya think about that?

 

[larrynj1]

let me see if i have this straight -
the purpose of this club will be to gather a collection of pics of individual cues.
membership will vote on whose pics get into the gallery
the people with the coolest cues get more votes than those who don't.
we pay a fee to be able to see these online cues.

 

[jhendri2]

Celtic,

I think you maybe on to something with the levels. Although I would limit the number of pictures in the gallery to one example. How many pictures of a Joss N-7 or whater would you need.


Blud,

What we are we overlooking in getting this thing started?

Jim

 

[Rich R.]

This gives us a added ability to rank the collection as to how collectable it is and what level a person would be in the club. It does allow for a person with "ANY" type of cue to be considered a collector though and all of their cues would be shown in the proper gallery.

Maybe it would be a good idea to set up a board of the more knowledgeable members to determine at what level to put each cue.
A cue that is collectable to its owner, may not be collectable to any one else.

 

[Michael Webb]

Maybe it would be a good idea to set up a board of the more knowledgeable members to determine at what level to put each cue.
A cue that is collectable to its owner, may not be collectable to any one else.

Well said. When it comes to cues, Classic Cues would be my vote to be on it. Joe has more knowledge about cues than any other person that I know of.

 

[dooziexx]

Alright guys. Ive spent some time thinking about this cue collector club and it basically a real good idea. I for one would participate. But I think we are trying to make things more complicated than it should be. Forget the levels, votes, board members etc. Anyone should be able to display their cue collection, production or custom. Group the cues by custom, production or vintage. If you dont want to look at the production collection, then dont look at it. Its that simple.

What I have in mind would be a simple webpage that is easily maintained. Im sure we dont want someone to spend alot of time on this. Have 3 category, custom cue collection, production cue collection and vintage cue collection. Within each category, list the cue collectors name with a link to his personal webpage of his collection. Each cue should be accompanied with a brief description of the materials used, cue-maker, year etc. Maybe have a rating system for each cue for visitors to rate his cues.

Also we need to have standard way of display the cues. Members have to take the pics of the cues in a certain way so that there uniformity thru out the website. Send the pics, description to the webmaster, and he'll load it to the site. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Alot more can be hashed out.

Just my opinion.....

 

[blud]

cues

Celtic,

I think you maybe on to something with the levels. Although I would limit the number of pictures in the gallery to one example. How many pictures of a Joss N-7 or whater would you need.


Blud,

What we are we overlooking in getting this thing started?

Jim

Jim, I think what should be done from the get, is to have only a few drawing up rules. If you get many involved, you have a cluster screw. No one will agree at some point.

1.- Like it or not, someone needs to be the boss, and head this up.
2.- Have only a few board members to lay out the rules..
3.- Make sure you don't have to many folks involved so you "CAN", get something done.
4.- Have a catagorie for "ALL" cues.Production, CNC and one of a kinds, ect.I wouldn't have to many differant catagories, from the get go. Later on add what's needed.
5.- rules should be as you can change them in due time, and don't have to many rules.
6.- Make your rules of the road, simple so all who are interested can vote for whatever.Keep it simple.
7.-Whatever you do, do not have a cue dealer, salesman,or cuemaker in charge of anything. Keep it fair for all.{example, not to single anyone person out,some will list there favorte cues when signing off after posting. So, signing this way, we know where there heart and wallet is..
8.- Have a committe of guys and or gals, choose what will go up this month. And limit the amout of cues in each catagorie.Then have your members vote using stiff guide lines of rules. The members MUST stick to the rules.Thuis can be done with a grid system and check boxes. Doing this will keep it simple and clean.Not have a comment box either. No need if you question box is layed out properly.
9.- The committe member should not be allowed to be on board but for a limited short term, and new bodies come aboard each month, and rotate them. Selection committe, have at least 4 board members, and the president, two go off each month, two new ones come on each month, ect ect. The president can stay for several month's or one year. Keep a good rotation going and nothing gets stale, or tainted. The president should be a tie breaker person.Sample, two members like brand X and two like brand A, the president vote for either to break the tie.There must be an un equal number of people on the board.
10.-Try to select a group of folks who know something about cues, and have no personal "AGENDA"..
11.- On another note, the shows I have seen and or been involved in, had production cues, of the modern day.
12.-At the more recent shows, only older ventage cues were considered as collectables, and no new production cues were involved within the show..These were some older production cues, and the builder had passed many years back. If you don't draw a line some place in the sand, you will have thousands of cues that will not qualify as collectables. It will be real easy to get off course, and loose what your aiming for.Too much is just that, TOO MUCH.
{The first ACA show held in Houston in 1992 [i think], hoisted by me, was custom and production. We sold a whopping $250,000.00 worth of cues in just two days. An unheard of amount back then. Richard Black took all honors, best of show, and had the nicest booth lay out.}.
13.- Whatever you folks do, PLEASE DO NOT HAVE A CATAGORIE FOR THE HIT OR PLAYABILITY of a CUE, shaft deflection ect, ect.
....Would not be fair for any cuemaker and or owner of a collectable. Only the owner should decide if he likes the hit or just likes the cue in question.

I guess, I have screwed up your minds by now, sorry for that. Let me know if you need me?

rock away

blud

 

[larrynj1]

what are the goals of the group? to host a show? dealers are the ones who will travel, setup and display at such a show. a few collectors, maybe, but certainly not enough to pay the expenses.

what is this voting all about? to determine which cues are allowed in a gallery? what purpose will the gallery serve? the entire membership voting on every cue in every collection seems like a lot of wheel spinning and for what purpose? bragging rights that your cue made it into "the gallery"?

sorry if i appear to be negative here, but i think we need to define the purpose of the club. some suggestions -the dispensing of information and education of the members should be the first order of business, some articles on cuemakers, methods of manufacture, what's hot and what's not,items of interest to be updated periodically on a member supported website. this gallery that is the subject of most of this thread is a nice feature, but should not be the focus of the group.

just some things to think about.

 

[blud]

focus

what are the goals of the group? to host a show? dealers are the ones who will travel, setup and display at such a show. a few collectors, maybe, but certainly not enough to pay the expenses.

what is this voting all about? to determine which cues are allowed in a gallery? what purpose will the gallery serve? the entire membership voting on every cue in every collection seems like a lot of wheel spinning and for what purpose? bragging rights that your cue made it into "the gallery"?

sorry if i appear to be negative here, but i think we need to define the purpose of the club. some suggestions -the dispensing of information and education of the members should be the first order of business, some articles on cuemakers, methods of manufacture, what's hot and what's not,items of interest to be updated periodically on a member supported website. this gallery that is the subject of most of this thread is a nice feature, but should not be the focus of the group.

just some things to think about.

Larry, bragging rights is not for all of us. But if my cue beat out brand X's cue, it would give me a little more press, creating more expossure. Nothing wrong with that. It could also help collectors who are looking for a certain cue, and maybe a winning cue, just might creat some revenew for some here. Nothing wrong with that either.
Larry, i don't understand what you mean?

, {but should not be the focus of the group}. This is the groups idea, so tell me if I missed something.They have to start some place.
Putting together by-laws, ,[if you will], rules of the road, discussing ideas or whatever, comes before all else.

First order of business should be formation of rules, including the goals of the gallery.

Then make a step to educate it's members with lots of information. Many members can write well, and most have a tale to tell. This could possibly creat gobbs of interesting information.
I also believe as you, in the education of all interested parties.Have cuemakers write for the gallery once in a while. This site would be very educational, when up and running. We should not put the horse before the cart.

Get the business rules fine tuned and then go to press.

Just my way of thinking, sir.

blud

 

[larrynj1]

i meant only that in forming a collectors organization, at this stage, the gallery seems to have gotten all the attention. defining what the organization wants to accomplish should be first, and then each goal can be worked on in order of priority.

 

[Celtic]

i meant only that in forming a collectors organization, at this stage, the gallery seems to have gotten all the attention. defining what the organization wants to accomplish should be first, and then each goal can be worked on in order of priority.

I understand what you are saying Larry, the gallery is getting the most attention at this point because it is the easiest thing to get set up and use as a draw and a central point to the club. Later on things like cue shows, the consignment area, trade show booths, pubications, and other things I am sure we could get into later I cannot think of atm will be possible.

At the end of the day the cue collectors association would have at it's heart, the actual cue collection of the members. A place where the cues would be shown via pictures and information could be learned about each cue. If a person did not know what Blud's cues look like they could come to the website, enter the gallery, and view all the Blud cue's in the collection and read about them, from the most simple, to the most elaborate, various years. They could then see other makers of cues at the touch of a button, all in the same spot, and on the forum they could ask questions about each of the cues. I do believe the gallery would be the most important part of the club, the heart of it if you will because it is a visual represention of the cues and collections that the club exists to celebrate.

The reason the gallery is so keyed in atm is because it is one of the easier and more logical first steps to get it built and running. It would act as a draw to people to come and view it and take a look around, and as such it would act to increase membership and work as it's own advertisement of getting more submissions and members to the club. It is just an attempt to start small and with a single focus and work out from there.

 

[blud]

good

I understand what you are saying Larry, the gallery is getting the most attention at this point because it is the easiest thing to get set up and use as a draw and a central point to the club. Later on things like cue shows, the consignment area, trade show booths, pubications, and other things I am sure we could get into later I cannot think of atm will be possible.

At the end of the day the cue collectors association would have at it's heart, the actual cue collection of the members. A place where the cues would be shown via pictures and information could be learned about each cue. If a person did not know what Blud's cues look like they could come to the website, enter the gallery, and view all the Blud cue's in the collection and read about them, from the most simple, to the most elaborate, various years. They could then see other makers of cues at the touch of a button, all in the same spot, and on the forum they could ask questions about each of the cues. I do believe the gallery would be the most important part of the club, the heart of it if you will because it is a visual represention of the cues and collections that the club exists to celebrate.

The reason the gallery is so keyed in atm is because it is one of the easier and more logical first steps to get it built and running. It would act as a draw to people to come and view it and take a look around, and as such it would act to increase membership and work as it's own advertisement of getting more submissions and members to the club. It is just an attempt to start small and with a single focus and work out from there.

Rock on Bro.

blud

 

[Rackin_Zack]

Well, as a wanna-be collector this is definitely an interesting topic for me. Like some others have mentioned, the first thing that needs to be determined is whether this will be a group for people to come together and show off all of their cues or a club where there are membership requirements and cue requirements and levels and rules and whatnot.

Unfortunately, my finances don't allow me to have the kind of collection I would like to have. I have started a collection with a couple of cues, one custom ordered by me, from a cuemaker that I really like. My immediate goal is to work with current cuemakers that I admire to get as many cues that I had a hand in designing as I can afford (without going too far into debt).

I personally think that you should have categories for your basic types of cues and then break those categories down by price. For instance:

CNC
<=499, 500-999, 1000-1999, 2000-4999 & >=5000
V-point
<=499, 500-999, 1000-1999, 2000-4999 & >=5000
Full-splice
<=499, 500-999, 1000-1999, 2000-4999 & >=5000
Players
<=499, 500-999, 1000-1999, 2000-4999 & >=5000

Or maybe instead of having nominal values have level 1-5 cues 1 being very simple and 5 being artistic masterpieces. This way you don’t have an ultra fancy Gilbert @ $2500 with a plain jane Szamboti.

Just thought I'd throw in my $.02 as this is a topic that's near and dear to my heart!

 

[classiccues]

Jim, I think what should be done from the get, is to have only a few drawing up rules. If you get many involved, you have a cluster screw. No one will agree at some point.

1.- Like it or not, someone needs to be the boss, and head this up.
2.- Have only a few board members to lay out the rules..
3.- Make sure you don't have to many folks involved so you "CAN", get something done.

Lets start here... 1, correct, 2 and 3 not going to happen. Here is why. Jim I don't know you, but I do know alot more influencial collectors and believe me, they are as bad as cuemakers when it comes to getting their feelings hurt. The ACA and this new thing collide BECAUSE some got their panties in a bunch because they were excluded or didn't like one thing or another. I personally don't know how you will get around this. But believe me, ego's are the toughest thing to deal with. The cuemakers have shown this ad nauseum.

7.-Whatever you do, do not have a cue dealer, salesman,or cuemaker in charge of anything. Keep it fair for all.{example, not to single anyone person out,some will list there favorte cues when signing off after posting. So, signing this way, we know where there heart and wallet is..

This is called a signature. Mine usually rotates, but to show how smart you think you are, alot of times cues in my signature I don't carry, but get occasionally in trade. So its really about advertising. The SAME reason YOU and I are here. BTW if it wasn't for dealers, alot of cuemakers would be in serious trouble right now.. just ask your bretheren that sell out to certain people overseas.

10.-Try to select a group of folks who know something about cues, and have no personal "AGENDA"....

This I want to see... again look right at the cuemaker organizations and you will see Blud does know what he is talking about here. Everyone like it or not has an agenda. If you have headstrong, read egotistical, collectors they will want to see their cues in gallery all the time. I mean really if you spend 20-30 thousand and many people do that on one cue, you may have a need to show it off.

You are going to have many issues to contend with. What you are seeing here is a devils advocate situation. A gallery maybe should not be limited, but expandable. Depending on the web space available, maybe your gallery should be cues that members want to just show off. Have a section for each cuemaker. A few months ago I did a tribute to Jerry Franklin and put up a few pages of all the South West cues we had. It was the most looked at pages of our site for 4 months. So have a section like a SW section and upload all the members SW cues. Lets face it, Celtic is right, the gallery will be your single biggest drawing card. Why do people buy the blue book? I have news for you, its for the pics.. sorry Martyne but that is really the case. Why? Because they never go out of date, where as the pricing could be different the following week. This is a good idea, but will need alot of attention.

Joe

 

[classiccues]

what are the goals of the group? to host a show? dealers are the ones who will travel, setup and display at such a show. a few collectors, maybe, but certainly not enough to pay the expenses.

just some things to think about.

LOL Dealers, well I anyways, go to the show to socialize and piss off the cnc cuemakers, but thats just me. But really I think the priorities as stated before is to get the bylaws in order, get the gallery up, and promote the thing. After that trade show stuff and other things will fall into place. Belive me I antagonized for weeks over starting a "Cuedealers Assoc" but after talking to some of my bretheren, I realized that many were right there to want to be the king, but only after I set it up. So I am drawing up some guidelines and maybe at this VF I will approach some of them and see what the possibilities are. But I am realistic. I think in my situation there can be no king, but only a cabinet. It is a long uphill climb, but its definately doable.

Joe

 

[larrynj1]

joe, please let me know when you have it all laid out.

king larry