It is normal to ask a person WHY they hold an opinion.
Seriously?
Now you guys want to turn this into a discussion about how to have a discussion?
Cue construction
- Thread starter luke
- Start date
Seriously?
Now you guys want to turn this into a discussion about how to have a discussion?
And I have a fair bit of experience to base my opinions on.
Let's have a little poll between you and me.
In the past 25 years which of us has been inside more cuemaking operations?
That would be me.
Of the two of us which has bought and sold more cues?
Pretty sure that's me again.
Which of us has been inside a cue factory working on orders from design to construction for several years?
Me again.
Which of us has access to over one million shafts all hanging in various stages of cutting and seasoning?
That's me too.
So of all of who have answered, Joey, Dale, JVB, and Eric Crisp, me ...you have the least amount of actual experience in the business from both the maker and dealer side of it.
You wrote a lot of stuff none of which is backed up by actual experience that is meaningful to the discussion.
And it is great that you use joss west as an example because I am pretty sure that Bill Stroud will tell you that a 1995 Joss West is a better cue in both playability and construction than a 1970 Joss West.
In fact we could invite him to the discussion and ask him.
And Hu I don't need to imagine how a cue is built internally because as mention previously I know how they are built from personal experience and from being able to see many brands sawn in half. When you're a big cue factory interested in how other makers build their cues then you don't mind buying cues and bandsawing them to see for yourself clearly how they were built.
I doubt that many cuemakers have seen what I have in that regard.
I doubt that many cuemakers have seen what I have in that regard.
You flat out told Joey his opinion is wrong. Are you that inept at understanding that opinions, whether based upon facts or personal beliefs aren't open for critiquing. It's their opinion, not their facts. No ones opinion is wrong until they try and state it as fact. You have many times tried to state your opinion is actually a fact and true. Not the opinion it really is.
You want to ask someone why they hold the opinion they do? Then you have no ****ing right to say their opinion is wrong then. It's your opinion to say the new cues are made better and use only one source of information(Mezz cues). But you don't get the right to say that other factual evidence isn't correct because it disagrees with the opinion you've formed. All I will say is that the EPA and other various save the earth agencies have caused a direct impact on the glues used in this industry. Do I think that a basic cue from 30 years ago is going to be worse than a new cue? Absolutely not. But only in terms of the known maker problem. Some makers took the time to ensure the cue would last, others not so much.
There are methods used in other industries that have gone unchanged for hundreds of years. Why would you assume that today's new tech has an effect on the basic ability of gluing wood together without gaps? Remember that all failures we are talking about come from the fitting of two parts. If you want to imply via your opinion that the cue makers of the past weren't capable of making tight fitting parts. Then it's my opinion to say you're a buffoon for trying to tarnish the names of the great cue makers by lumping together all cues into one group. You're basically trying to imply without wanting to imply it that a WalMart Budwieser cue is going to be made better than an old cue just because it's new.
Why would you assume that I don't have any experience to back up my statements?
And please all opinion is open to critique. All discussion starts with opinions.
In fact most of what people believe is really opinion because most people don't go out and do the actual science to confirm what they have been told. So they have to choose what they believe and say well my opinion is.........because of this........
And yes I will tell anyone that their OPINION is wrong if I think that the FACTS do not support their statement.
Want to make a little sweat bet?
I bet you dinner that I can have someone make this simple statement...
"in my opinion, Meucci cues are the most well constructed and best hitting cues ever made."
And there will be a BUNCH of people not only saying that opinion is wrong but also proving it wrong.
Also the the question was whether cues built today are better or worse than cues of the past and the factual answer is that in general they are better.
And no I am not trying to imply anything. I made a statement of fact that is easy to prove. You seem to be the one wanting to infer what is not there.
But to answer a specific point. If, knowing nothing about cue construction, you were to go on AliBaba today and look for a supplier to build you a cue with a Budweiser logo all over it and you wanted the lowest price you could find then you would get a far better cue NOW than you would have 25 years ago.
Hopefully that is simple enough for you to understand my point.
:grin-square:
Another day, another hundreds of words in argument.:grin:
Maybe thousands.
Dang, the Giants lost to the Nats.:grin:
People will always say they don't build them like they used to. That may be a fair or unfair statement depending upon which side of the fence you're on. As far as glues, yes there are many, many brands of glue, and they are made out of a plethora of materials and chemicals. However, since I deal in many older cues, I can say with absolute certainty, that there are a great many Titlists, Model 360's, 26 1/2's, Boti's, Spains, Bushka's that still play as good today, as they did when they were built. What's that mean? Well it means IMHO that until a cue gets to be 80 years old, you won't know if the glue is as good as the old glue, but in 80 years if a great many of already older cues are still together, there will never be a time when the new cues catch up. So again, what does that mean? Probably nothing cause no one here debating this will be around. :grin:
As far as production cues, many Palmers play very nicely still today as in 1968.
Like Eric stated there are some myths, some truths and many in between facts. Bottom line, pick up a cue, play with it, if you like it great, if not, choose again. In most cases the cue is going to out live the owner anyways.
Its harder to make a bad cue today, than it is to make a solid cue.
JV
As far as production cues, many Palmers play very nicely still today as in 1968.
Like Eric stated there are some myths, some truths and many in between facts. Bottom line, pick up a cue, play with it, if you like it great, if not, choose again. In most cases the cue is going to out live the owner anyways.
Its harder to make a bad cue today, than it is to make a solid cue.
JV
Not an argument unless you make it one. It's a discussion.
You seem to snipe and run away often.
Maybe someday you will learn to actually provide some reasoning for the statements you make so that the discussion can actually produce some meaningful two-way understanding.
But that's not your style. Your style is PROCLAIM a position and then refuse to discuss WHY you hold that position.
People like me write a lot of words to support our position for the same reason Kerry x-rayed a lot of cues....to UNDERSTAND the subject deeply through study and thought.
I am quite happy to be educated by the cue makers on this forum to fill in what I don't know about. But I certainly don't have to be proclaimed to by holier-than-thou folks like you who are too good to explain your "opinion" to the rest of us.
And your buddy Dale is almost as bad except that occassionally he will explain his position in as condescending a tone as possible.
Both of you are pretty much worthless to the overall content of the forum and what a forum is about IMO. And remember, you can't ARGUE with my opinion.
By the way Hits Em Hard,
Joey used a SPECIFIC example of Adam cues saying that no modern production cue is better than the 80s Adam cues.
So if you pay attention, which you did not, I used a SPECIFIC brand in response BECAUSE that brand is Mezz, the factory that MADE THE 80s ADAM CUES.
You see SOME OF US here have a little more knowledge than others and so if we see a SPECIFIC point made that is not correct, such as this one then we should speak up about it.
Do you think that Joey Bautista, part time, small time, cue maker knows MORE about production cues than Mezz cues?
Oh I don't know, Mezz cues - maker of cues since the 50s - chosen by Dick Helmstetter to make Adam cues in the 70s through 90s - now a world leading cue brand in their own right with dozens of innovations - you think MAYBE they think that they build better cues NOW than they did in the 80s?????
Oh gee, I forgot.....how silly of me......Kaz Miki, the owner of Mezz, is also an invited and displaying cue maker at the International Cue Collectors Show where he brings the Exceed cues each year that they have the show.
So maybe Kaz knows just a little more than Joey Bautista about how to build not only a good cue but also knows a boatload more about how to build a highly ornate cue.
And just maybe you could IMAGINE a world where Kaz Miki shares his knowledge with other manufacturers which leads to their cues becoming even better.
And if you really want your head to explode imagine a world where a big time famous cue maker known for super high quality is hired to go and teach a factory how to build high quality production cues. Are you still alive after imagining this? Well now we are going to stretch it a little further and imagine that the cuemakers who were trained by this big time famous cue maker go to other factories and start factories of their own using what they learned. Oh my lord it's an epidemic of sharing better methods to make pool cues. Gosh, now everyone knows how to glue parts together precisely...... stop thinking now before you pass out from too much imagining a world where overall the quality of pool cues is better than any time in the past.
Joey used a SPECIFIC example of Adam cues saying that no modern production cue is better than the 80s Adam cues.
So if you pay attention, which you did not, I used a SPECIFIC brand in response BECAUSE that brand is Mezz, the factory that MADE THE 80s ADAM CUES.
You see SOME OF US here have a little more knowledge than others and so if we see a SPECIFIC point made that is not correct, such as this one then we should speak up about it.
Do you think that Joey Bautista, part time, small time, cue maker knows MORE about production cues than Mezz cues?
Oh I don't know, Mezz cues - maker of cues since the 50s - chosen by Dick Helmstetter to make Adam cues in the 70s through 90s - now a world leading cue brand in their own right with dozens of innovations - you think MAYBE they think that they build better cues NOW than they did in the 80s?????
Oh gee, I forgot.....how silly of me......Kaz Miki, the owner of Mezz, is also an invited and displaying cue maker at the International Cue Collectors Show where he brings the Exceed cues each year that they have the show.
So maybe Kaz knows just a little more than Joey Bautista about how to build not only a good cue but also knows a boatload more about how to build a highly ornate cue.
And just maybe you could IMAGINE a world where Kaz Miki shares his knowledge with other manufacturers which leads to their cues becoming even better.
And if you really want your head to explode imagine a world where a big time famous cue maker known for super high quality is hired to go and teach a factory how to build high quality production cues. Are you still alive after imagining this? Well now we are going to stretch it a little further and imagine that the cuemakers who were trained by this big time famous cue maker go to other factories and start factories of their own using what they learned. Oh my lord it's an epidemic of sharing better methods to make pool cues. Gosh, now everyone knows how to glue parts together precisely...... stop thinking now before you pass out from too much imagining a world where overall the quality of pool cues is better than any time in the past.
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It's Adam cue . NOT ADAMS.
You babbling manipulating b!tch.
You babbling manipulating b!tch.
Which is it?
Are modern makers better or not Joey? Which man were you referring to. I am sure that those following this discussion would love to know which cue maker you are talking about being inferior to the "peeps today" who do more to make cue more mechanically secure.
Are modern makers better or not Joey? Which man were you referring to. I am sure that those following this discussion would love to know which cue maker you are talking about being inferior to the "peeps today" who do more to make cue more mechanically secure.
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It's Adam cue . NOT ADAMS.
You babbling manipulating b!tch.
So I said Adams/Adam who cares? Way to ignore the actual point.
Aww gee. namecalling.....you'd rather do that than explain how you arrived at your "opinion"?
Not a good way to establish credibility.
Yep, you did, and a worthless and wrong opinion at that. You might as well have kept it to yourself.
Why would the guy asking the questions argue? He is the one seeking knowledge. If someone like you gives a flip answer that is also incorrect how should he know that it is incorrect?
Do you know more about cue making than Kaz Miki does?
Gosh you're just a fountain of obvious information aren't you. And by offering the counterpoint the person seeking information can choose between say your UNFOUNDED statement, and the more reasoned one challenging you.
Unless of course you would like to provide your reasoning to help the questioner out as to WHY you hold the "opinion" that you do. Then he would have better information to choose from.
But that's not your style is it?
For Joey and the OP.
A brief history of Mezz Cues, made by the Miki company.
http://www.mezzcues.us/history/
A brief history of Mezz Cues, made by the Miki company.
http://www.mezzcues.us/history/
I can't believe you have stooped to such levels of absurdity. You seriously need trained on what an argument is and how not to be an ass while arguing. There is no amount of information you can provide to sway his opinion, and vice versa. You're completely unaware of reality.