Cue Damage Caused by Cold Weather !!

[Scott Lee]

Chopdoc...I've owned expensive cues ($1000-$5000+) for the past 3+ decades. I've lived in the mountains, and so left my cues in extreme cold (minus 20 degrees), as well as being in very hot places, like AZ or Vegas, in the summer (120-150+ degrees). I have left cues in the car for months with no damage EVER. Now they still get taken out and played with almost on a daily basis. Not saying it can't happen...but it never happened to me...even once. Like JB said...well made cues hold up under just about any conditions.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

But the fact that nobody seems to want to try something like this with a high end custom speaks volumes.

 

[Chopdoc]

Chopdoc...I've owned expensive cues ($1000-$5000+) for the past 3+ decades. I've lived in the mountains, and so left my cues in extreme cold (minus 20 degrees), as well as being in very hot places, like AZ or Vegas, in the summer (120-150+ degrees). I have left cues in the car for months with no damage EVER. Now they still get taken out and played with almost on a daily basis. Not saying it can't happen...but it never happened to me...even once. Like JB said...well made cues hold up under just about any conditions.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

As I said, most of the time it is fine.

Well made cues also fail even when taken care of perfectly. This isn't even arguable really.

There are beautiful examples of such failures posted in the cue makers forum by people like Ryan (rat cues), photographic evidence of massive failures of finishes and also wood and rings.

I agree, the vast majority of the time it will be fine. But it only takes once to do serious damage to a fine cue.


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[JB Cases]

Chopdoc...I've owned expensive cues ($1000-$5000+) for the past 3+ decades. I've lived in the mountains, and so left my cues in extreme cold (minus 20 degrees), as well as being in very hot places, like AZ or Vegas, in the summer (120-150+ degrees). I have left cues in the car for months with no damage EVER. Now they still get taken out and played with almost on a daily basis. Not saying it can't happen...but it never happened to me...even once. Like JB said...well made cues hold up under just about any conditions.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I guess I should add in my own experiences of moving high end cues around the world. I have kept up to 50k in cues in the car through all climates and seasons. More than once we have driven cross country from Philly to LA with 36 or more custom cues in the back of a Ryder truck. Many times they traveled around the world in the belly of a plane.

Some had slight problems and most didn't. After I really started to learn how cue makers deal with their wood and construction I started to really understand why some cues warped and others did not when all were stored in the same conditions.

As George might have said, 'it's all about the vood', and as Bill Schick might say, 'it's all about the tolerances'. There is so much diversity in cue construction you can't accurately predict how every cue will hold up based on the outward appearance. Only when you know how the cue was built can you have a chance to predict what it will do in my opinion.

 

[Chopdoc]

RJ:

I'm thinking nothing will happen to that cue. Here's why:

1. Cold temperatures don't warp wood; heat does. When they form and bend wood (e.g. for chairs), they use high heat to do so, not cold. Add humidity -- i.e. steam -- and you can bend and bow wood into complete circles.
   
2. Cold temperatures also mean dry temperatures. Any humidity in the air is already "condensed out" -- in the form of precipitation. That's why many (like myself) have sinus problems in cold weather, due to the extremely dry air causing sinus membranes to dry out and crack.
   
3. The cue will be broken-down and evenly supported in a case. It's not like the shaft and butt will be supported only at the ends, with nothing supporting it in the middle, which after time would "encourage" a bow to creep into both.

Now if there were high temperatures involved instead, that might be a different matter.

For years when I was in the Navy, I kept a graphite cue in the trunk of my car, through the seasonal changes in the long-term parking lots on the Navy base in Norfolk, VA, when I was out to sea. It NEVER warped. Of course, 1.) the cue was a graphite composite cue, and 2.) the cue was in a case, laid flat on the floor of the trunk with towels wrapped around the case (to both absorb any moisture and sudden temperature changes, as well as "obfuscate" the fact it was a cue if someone outside the rear windows were to peer between the gap where the rear seats folded down and the trunk itself).

-Sean

Cold and heat are relative and in fact cold is merely the loss of heat.

Wood expands and contracts with temperature changes and a single piece of wood is not perfectly homogeneous in structure so it will expand and contract at different rates in different parts of the same piece.


That said, it is mostly moisture gradients that warp wood, not temperature gradients.



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[Chopdoc]

I guess I should add in my own experiences of moving high end cues around the world. I have kept up to 50k in cues in the car through all climates and seasons. More than once we have driven cross country from Philly to LA with 36 or more custom cues in the back of a Ryder truck. Many times they traveled around the world in the belly of a plane.

Some had slight problems and most didn't. After I really started to learn how cue makers deal with their wood and construction I started to really understand why some cues warped and others did not when all were stored in the same conditions.

As George might have said, 'it's all about the vood', and as Bill Schick might say, 'it's all about the tolerances'. There is so much diversity in cue construction you can't accurately predict how every cue will hold up based on the outward appearance. Only when you know how the cue was built can you have a chance to predict what it will do in my opinion.

Some had slight problems and most didn't.

Precisely!

You can have a chance to predict...at best. In other words. A cheap cue can be perfectly stable under all conditions and a very expensive cue made by the best maker can warp like a banana. Odds are that the cheaply produced cue will be less stable than the better made cue, but this is not 100% so.

What is the chance? The odds? I don't know. But who has the money to actually experiment with a few hundred thousand dollars worth of cues to demonstrate the statistical significance? I mean, I figure it would take at least that much, if not perhaps seven figures to get a sufficient sample size.

So...knowing that it is merely odds, why would one increase the risk by intentionally subjecting valuable cues to adverse environments?


Or to boil it down to the statement you made of "some had a slight problem"- How much is a slight problem worth on a Gus? A Gina? A Bushka?

IMHO any reasonable person would admit there is a risk and that the only matter up in the air is the question of the degree of that risk.

You can say that you have subjected many cues to such risks on many occasions. That is a luxury I cannot afford. I simply couldn't reasonably do it.

How many issues have we seen arise in the forums after a cue was shipped? Isn't it likely that in at least some of those cases the seller was completely honest and it was in fact the environmental extremes encountered in shipping that damaged the cue? I mean, it gets seriously cold in the cargo hold of an aircraft.

We have even seen cases where a cue was returned under refund only to find it was straight and undamaged after return. Isn't it likely that the environmental changes were responsible and both parties were actually honest?



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[JB Cases]

Precisely!

You can have a chance to predict...at best. In other words. A cheap cue can be perfectly stable under all conditions and a very expensive cue made by the best maker can warp like a banana. Odds are that the cheaply produced cue will be less stable than the better made cue, but this is not 100% so.

What is the chance? The odds? I don't know. But who has the money to actually experiment with a few hundred thousand dollars worth of cues to demonstrate the statistical significance? I mean, I figure it would take at least that much, if not perhaps seven figures to get a sufficient sample size.

So...knowing that it is merely odds, why would one increase the risk by intentionally subjecting valuable cues to adverse environments?


Or to boil it down to the statement you made of "some had a slight problem"- How much is a slight problem worth on a Gus? A Gina? A Bushka?

IMHO any reasonable person would admit there is a risk and that the only matter up in the air is the question of the degree of that risk.

You can say that you have subjected many cues to such risks on many occasions. That is a luxury I cannot afford. I simply couldn't reasonably do it.

How many issues have we seen arise in the forums after a cue was shipped? Isn't it likely that in at least some of those cases the seller was completely honest and it was in fact the environmental extremes encountered in shipping that damaged the cue? I mean, it gets seriously cold in the cargo hold of an aircraft.

We have even seen cases where a cue was returned under refund only to find it was straight and undamaged after return. Isn't it likely that the environmental changes were responsible and both parties were actually honest?



.

Agreed but no one is going to be able say that FOR SURE if you leave your cue in the car or in the house it will be fine.

All you can do is look at the people who do store hundreds of thousands of dollars in cues and see what they are doing. Cue dealers travel with the cues laying horizontally in cases. Cues are shipped in containers in all seasons horizontally in boxes. Cues are stored in warehouses that freeze in winter and heat up in summer.

All I and Scott Frost were doing is giving out our experiences as travelers. My Scruggs is downstairs in the car now. It lives there no matter what the weather is doing. I kind of feel that seasoned wood and good construction ought to be enough to survive life in the car and based on my experiences that has been the result.

I do agree with you that once a cue has been damaged then it's damaged. Minimizing that risk is not a bad way to go.

However some cue makers do work on making their cues impervious to the elements and Fury for example offers a lifetime warranty against warpage on all their newer cues. I was told by the owner of the company that they left one cue outside leaning against a wall for almost a year and it did not warp. So my point remains that construction is the biggest factor in whether a cue will react badly to the elements and not the case it's in although a good case can be an insulator to a degree.

 

[Chopdoc]

A warranty is based on odds. It is a bet. It assumes a certain percentage of failures.


I don't think we are in disagreement at all actually.


Surely Fury cues does not store all of their shafts outside leaning against a wall. :wink:

Construction, meaning methods and materials, certainly has a great deal to do with it. In fact it is the only aspect that can be controlled, so that would be obvious as far as what one can do to minimize risk. If one could engineer the tree then it could be kicked up to another level. That has been tied in a manner of speaking with the engineered shafts but with mixed results.



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[backplaying]

I guess I should add in my own experiences of moving high end cues around the world. I have kept up to 50k in cues in the car through all climates and seasons. More than once we have driven cross country from Philly to LA with 36 or more custom cues in the back of a Ryder truck. Many times they traveled around the world in the belly of a plane.

Some had slight problems and most didn't. After I really started to learn how cue makers deal with their wood and construction I started to really understand why some cues warped and others did not when all were stored in the same conditions.

As George might have said, 'it's all about the vood', and as Bill Schick might say, 'it's all about the tolerances'. There is so much diversity in cue construction you can't accurately predict how every cue will hold up based on the outward appearance. Only when you know how the cue was built can you have a chance to predict what it will do in my opinion.

I shouldn't brag on meucci as I'm a little hot at him, but I have kept a older birdseye maple meucci out in the truck for a few years and its still dead straight, and its my playing cue, but have had a dufferin to warp leaving out in the car before. Do you think the right case can also keep a cue from weather damage?

 

[JB Cases]

A warranty is based on odds. It is a bet. It assumes a certain percentage of failures.


I don't think we are in disagreement at all actually.


Surely Fury cues does not store all of their shafts outside leaning against a wall. :wink:

Construction, meaning methods and materials, certainly has a great deal to do with it. In fact it is the only aspect that can be controlled, so that would be obvious as far as what one can do to minimize risk. If one could engineer the tree then it could be kicked up to another level. That has been tied in a manner of speaking with the engineered shafts but with mixed results.



.

I never thought we were in any disagreement here.

Fury stores cut shafts vertically hanging in racks. Butt wood is stored horizontally. When the cues are in production they are moved around in rolling racks that keep them standing up and separated. When they are finished they are stored in tubes that hold them by the ends securely with no pressure on the parts. Those tubes are stacked horizontally in boxes and the boxes are kept in the warehouse. When shipped the boxes go in the containers.

The cheaper models of cues made in the same facility are stored in barrels leaning against the side as they move from station to station. When done they are put into plastic bags and stored in boxes with one piece of cardboard separating each layer. Those cues are then stored in the warehouse and then sent in the container as well.

FWIW there is a ton of research on the web regarding wood and what happens to wood when exposed to the elements. We obviously aren't the only industry that has concerns about this. People need to look around and read up on what's out there.

 

[JB Cases]

I shouldn't brag on meucci as I'm a little hot at him, but I have kept a older birdseye maple meucci out in the truck for a few years and its still dead straight, and its my playing cue, but have had a dufferin to warp leaving out in the car before. Do you think the right case can also keep a cue from weather damage?

When you say weather damage what exactly do you mean? I think any container that seals will protect against all the outside elements except temperature.

It's pretty well know that heat makes things expand and cold contracts them. In the absence of electric climate control all you can do is slow down the rate at which something changes temperature. So yes, a case that does that and has some kind of moisture barrier is going to provide extra protection.

I have a video that I need to upload where I put a heat gun at over 900 degrees on a case. I figure that if that can't generate enough heat to damage the cue inside then regular temperatures that we live in won't hurt either.

Gonna upload it now. Will update the thread when it's done. - Here is is GTF Case vs. 930 degree Heat Gun