Cue joint questions?

[drivermaker]

John McChesney, who died in the last few years, described a while ago an interesting experiment he did 14 years ago."

John's words:
**********
Here's something interesting we tried in 1991:
At an event we had 16 cues with the butt, joint and the ferrules covered with masking tape...then numbered. No one could "see" if the cue was a steel, plastic or wood joint (as in a Pete), nor detect by the style of ferrule.
We had 70 players...each hit balls with the cues throughout the weekend.
The results: Of nearly 800 attempts over the time period, the players guessed wrong about what type joint was in the cue more than 7 out of 10 times. A top pro (Meucci staffer) happened to be there, having done an exhibition and the cue he liked the most during the attempts:
He thought was surely a Meucci, plastic joint when in reality it was an older
Adams with a piloted steel joint; and additionally guessed the Meucci he shot with as a cue with a steel joint. Again, I maintain that cues with different joint materials may sound differently; may be balanced differently, but what is "hit" ? Doesn't "hit" have to do with all the senses: Vibration (feel), sound, balance, etc. What is a "soft" hit? *What is a "hard" hit? (what does this mean, if not the sound the cue makes upon impact, or are people ref. to the vibration in the butt?) Does a hard hit vibrate more and make a different sound? A soft hit vibrate less with a different sound? I maintain that the primary criteria that differentiates one cue from another begins with:
>The tip (soft, med or hard)
>The shaft diameter and density of the wood
>The taper (or stiffness of the shaft)

To this day, I still don't believe the joint has much to do with the
reaction of the cueball off the shaft, rather it is the 3 aforementioned that have far more bearing on how a cue plays than anything else. Remember, what makes the predator shaft play differently is what is located at the tip, inside the shaft, the ferrule and the laminations....not the joint or butt.

In closing, our experiment asked which cue the players liked best: Of the 70 players, nearly 55 liked the hit of two cues with different numbers:
When the two were exposed, they both were sneaky petes, wood to wood joints, (one a Scruggs and the other a Huebler); both about 19 oz., both about 13 1/4mm and tended to be on the stiff side of "hit". *By the way, the 55 who liked the hit of these two cues: more than half thought they would be steel jointed.

*************

mike page
fargo

Let's expand on this test and do one for deflection only. Assume that you camaflouged the shafts and ferrules only, but had just about every low deflection shaft made today along with regular shafts from production companies and independent cue makers and kept interchanging them on two or three non-descript butts with 100 pros and 200 amateurs testing them with their eyes wide open.

Do you think very many shooters would be able to tell which ones were the lowest deflecting shafts from the highest, or the ones in-between?

And do you think ANY of the shooters would be able to differentiate between a Predator or anything else consistently?

My guess right now is.....HELL NO!!!

 

[Michael Webb]

I don't have any documentation, usually just use instructors and seasoned players for test runs, I love causing doubt when it comes to hit because it is just what I said, VERY SUBJECTIVE.
The forearms were all the same in the test but the joints were
sleeved stainless, solid ivory, Linen micarta and phenolic, All made a different sound and reacted different. The same shaft was used on all four cues. Of course the density of the woods absolutely play a part to the whole equation
The end result is it gave me a little more knowledge. And to not take anything for granted. As long as people have different opinions, cues will look, react, and be constructed differently.
The best you can do as an individual is to know what works for you.

 

[mikepage]

Let's expand on this test and do one for deflection only. Assume that you camaflouged the shafts and ferrules only, but had just about every low deflection shaft made today along with regular shafts from production companies and independent cue makers and kept interchanging them on two or three non-descript butts with 100 pros and 200 amateurs testing them with their eyes wide open.

Do you think very many shooters would be able to tell which ones were the lowest deflecting shafts from the highest, or the ones in-between?

And do you think ANY of the shooters would be able to differentiate between a Predator or anything else consistently?

My guess right now is.....HELL NO!!!

Try this Driver

Find someone who shoots strong and doesn't use a low-squirt cue. Ask them to cut this ball in with a lot of outside english:

START(
%CD4X0%PS4W8

)END

Get them to do it successfully another time or two.

Next hand them a cue with a predator shaft and ask them to do it again. I've done this at least a half dozen times, and the player has never failed to miss the object ball entirely and has never failed to have an incredulous "what the f***?" look on his face.

Anybody who doesn't shoot with a predator should borrow one at the pool hall, try this, and report back.

mike page
fargo

 

[zeeder]

Try this Driver

Find someone who shoots strong and doesn't use a low-squirt cue. Ask them to cut this ball in with a lot of outside english:

START(
%CD4X0%PS4W8

)END

Get them to do it successfully another time or two.

Next hand them a cue with a predator shaft and ask them to do it again. I've done this at least a half dozen times, and the player has never failed to miss the object ball entirely and has never failed to have an incredulous "what the f***?" look on his face.

Anybody who doesn't shoot with a predator should borrow one at the pool hall, try this, and report back.

mike page
fargo

That's exactly what I had to deal with in Peoria when I got to play Jennifer Barretta! I didn't have my cue and I borrowed Williebetmore's Predator BK to play here...lol. I didn't get a chance to hit any warm up shots and during the set I missed several object balls completely trying to use outside spin! Other than that I missed most other shots I tried to shoot with spin. I finally adjusted after my set with Jennifer and started playing decent later, but that damn predator had me screwed up for a bit!

 

[Williebetmore]

That's exactly what I had to deal with in Peoria when I got to play Jennifer Barretta! I didn't have my cue and I borrowed Williebetmore's Predator BK to play here...lol. I didn't get a chance to hit any warm up shots and during the set I missed several object balls completely trying to use outside spin! Other than that I missed most other shots I tried to shoot with spin. I finally adjusted after my set with Jennifer and started playing decent later, but that damn predator had me screwed up for a bit!

Z-man,
Perhaps you should investigate the possibility of buying your own cue, maybe one of those fancy two-piece cues that come apart in the middle so you can carry them with you when you go places??? It's really cool having your own cue.

I am interested in the views of those that use stiffer or "high-deflection" cues. I like the idea of more feedback, but I hate the idea of having to allow for any more deflection than I have to (I find it reasonable to think that the less allowances you have to make, the quicker/easier you can learn to use English - at my age every minute counts, I need to learn quickly). With my cue I adjust for deflection only on inside English at moderate to high speed hits. On outside English I only need to adjust when using massive speed hits way off center. With soft inside hits, and almost all outside hits I don't have to adjust at all. How does this compare to your technique??? I'm in the process of designing a cue; and I wonder if I should just stick to the Predator shaft I've always used, or investigate one of the cue-builders wares. Thanks for your help.

 

[Michael Webb]

Try this Driver

Find someone who shoots strong and doesn't use a low-squirt cue. Ask them to cut this ball in with a lot of outside english:

START(
%CD4X0%PS4W8

)END

Get them to do it successfully another time or two.

Next hand them a cue with a predator shaft and ask them to do it again. I've done this at least a half dozen times, and the player has never failed to miss the object ball entirely and has never failed to have an incredulous "what the f***?" look on his face.

Anybody who doesn't shoot with a predator should borrow one at the pool hall, try this, and report back.

mike page
fargo

That's a good test and quite funny too!
Regular, Predator, red dot, black dot,
Subject to invidual feel.
You Make Some Great Points Mike.

 

[Williebetmore]

Z-man,
Perhaps you should investigate the possibility of buying your own cue, maybe one of those fancy two-piece cues that come apart in the middle so you can carry them with you when you go places??? It's really cool having your own cue.

I am interested in the views of those that use stiffer or "high-deflection" cues. I like the idea of more feedback, but I hate the idea of having to allow for any more deflection than I have to (I find it reasonable to think that the less allowances you have to make, the quicker/easier you can learn to use English - at my age every minute counts, I need to learn quickly). With my cue I adjust for deflection only on inside English at moderate to high speed hits. On outside English I only need to adjust when using massive speed hits way off center. With soft inside hits, and almost all outside hits I don't have to adjust at all. How does this compare to your technique??? I'm in the process of designing a cue; and I wonder if I should just stick to the Predator shaft I've always used, or investigate one of the cue-builders wares. Thanks for your help.

P.S. - Z-man, even with that crappy Predator and giving up the breaks (for obvious reasons) I still didn't lose to a girl (though that may end soon when straight pool league begins).

 

[drivermaker]

Try this Driver

Find someone who shoots strong and doesn't use a low-squirt cue. Ask them to cut this ball in with a lot of outside english:

START(
%CD4X0%PS4W8

)END

Get them to do it successfully another time or two.

Next hand them a cue with a predator shaft and ask them to do it again. I've done this at least a half dozen times, and the player has never failed to miss the object ball entirely and has never failed to have an incredulous "what the f***?" look on his face.

Anybody who doesn't shoot with a predator should borrow one at the pool hall, try this, and report back.

mike page
fargo

I can't do wie table. Why don't YOU try it with an I.C.E., a Universal shaft, a black dot, a Mezz, and an X Shaft and report back. Also tell me which one feels better on top of it.

Besides, when YOU can point out to me and everyone else what the highest deflection shafts are compared to all the others, I'll try it. But then again, I'm probably not using one of those anyway.

 

[zeeder]

P.S. - Z-man, even with that crappy Predator and giving up the breaks (for obvious reasons) I still didn't lose to a girl (though that may end soon when straight pool league begins).

Well Willie, you're much better than I am! I'm proud to lose to Jennifer anytime. I did fare a bit better when I played her at her exhibition here in Columbia, MO.

As far as you question about the new cue goes, I think you may want to try the stock shaft from whoever your getting a cue built from. What you may want to do is get one or two regular shafts and a matching predator shaft that way you can play with whatever you like best and if you ever decide to sell the cue it will have a larger market with regular and predator shafts.

 

[zeeder]

Z-man,
Perhaps you should investigate the possibility of buying your own cue, maybe one of those fancy two-piece cues that come apart in the middle so you can carry them with you when you go places??? It's really cool having your own cue.

I've heard that having your own cue is pretty neat! I've actually contacted someone to see about buying one of those fancy two piece cues that I can take with me where ever I go!!

 

[RSB-Refugee]

Try this...

That is a good experiment, but you could do the same, in reverse. Let a strong Predator player, hit the shot a few times with a Predator and then put a real shaft in his hand. Your experiment, in my mind, proves there is a difference, but not, that one is better than the other.

Tracy

 

[rhncue]

That is a good experiment, but you could do the same, in reverse. Let a strong Predator player, hit the shot a few times with a Predator and then put a real shaft in his hand. Your experiment, in my mind, proves there is a difference, but not, that one is better than the other.

Tracy

True, the only thing that this test shows is exactly what Predator has been saying for years ---- THEY SQUIRT LESS!!!!
Dick

 

[mikepage]

That is a good experiment, but you could do the same, in reverse. Let a strong Predator player, hit the shot a few times with a Predator and then put a real shaft in his hand. Your experiment, in my mind, proves there is a difference, but not, that one is better than the other.

Tracy

I agree. But please note I haven't made any claims about what's better.

Here's another reason I like this particular shot. When many people try a low squirt shaft, they hit a thicker cut than this with outside english. So imagine this test shot with a half-ball hit rather than a thin cut. Instead of the the cueball missing the object ball, it just hits it too thin, driving it into the side rail. So the shot illustrates the same thing. But people frequently come to the wrong conclusion. They see that they hit a ball with outside spin that was supposed to go in the hole and instead went into the rail, so they conclude that the stick somehow put extra spin on the ball and that that extra spin threw the object ball into the rail. This conslusion is nonsense, as my test shot demonstrates.

mike page
fargo

 

[mikepage]

I can't do wie table. Why don't YOU try it with an I.C.E., a Universal shaft, a black dot, a Mezz, and an X Shaft and report back. Also tell me which one feels better on top of it.

Besides, when YOU can point out to me and everyone else what the highest deflection shafts are compared to all the others, I'll try it. But then again, I'm probably not using one of those anyway.

Why do you want me to try it with those shafts? What are you looking for?

And anybody can do the aim&pivot squirt test to determine the pivot point of his or her cues. It's not a secret.

BTW, if anybody has not seen the guts of a predator 314 shaft and its low endmass design, check out the link below. I did a little surgery on it after a player whacked it over the rail at a tournament.

www.fargopool.com/p314.jpg

mike page
fargo

 

[Colin Colenso]

I'm certainly not a cuemaker and never tried disecting one like a dead frog, but I definitely believe what Mike is saying here. I've tried too many cues without end mass, with end mass, with one type of joint or joint collar and others, different ferrules and tips, different weights, etc. and good things or squirrelly things can come out of each of them. I am not convinced that it's end mass alone as the Ph.D.'s like to write about or the Predator conspiracy.

According to the Ph.D.'s you're refering to shots either grip 100% or miscue. I have argued that this is not what is happening. That though there is a relatively small area range between what we refer to as grip and miscue, through this region where we often play, there is a transition of intermediate stages of miscue which deflects the cue ball and effects spin and speed noticeably.

The delfection they talk about I refer to as Rotation Induced Deflection. This no doubt occurs and is affected by tip end mass.

For the other cause of deflection I coined the term Surface Property Induced Deflection (SPID). This is influced by such things as tip roundness, chalk holding ability of tip, type an amount of chalk, ferrule stiffness, shaft stiffness and possibly joint properties that can influence how the shaft vibrates under impact which can affect how the tip, at the surface CB interface grips to the CB.

Joints can also affect vibration to the hand which can have a negative mental influence, without necessarily affecting the way the CB reacts.

However, if it shakes in your hand, it is probably doing the same at the tip end, and this would likely cause less gripping on the CB.

See article on SPID and RID here:
http://www.top147.com/magazine/2004005/2004005063000571287.htm

 

[LastTwo]

According to the Ph.D.'s you're refering to shots either grip 100% or miscue. I have argued that this is not what is happening. That though there is a relatively small area range between what we refer to as grip and miscue, through this region where we often play, there is a transition of intermediate stages of miscue which deflects the cue ball and effects spin and speed noticeably.

The delfection they talk about I refer to as Rotation Induced Deflection. This no doubt occurs and is affected by tip end mass.

For the other cause of deflection I coined the term Surface Property Induced Deflection (SPID). This is influced by such things as tip roundness, chalk holding ability of tip, type an amount of chalk, ferrule stiffness, shaft stiffness and possibly joint properties that can influence how the shaft vibrates under impact which can affect how the tip, at the surface CB interface grips to the CB.

Joints can also affect vibration to the hand which can have a negative mental influence, without necessarily affecting the way the CB reacts.

However, if it shakes in your hand, it is probably doing the same at the tip end, and this would likely cause less gripping on the CB.

See article on SPID and RID here:
http://www.top147.com/magazine/2004005/2004005063000571287.htm

Colin out of curiosity, how can vibration in the tip effect the shot if vibration occurs after the hit, and the cueball is already long gone from the tip?

 

[drivermaker]

Why do you want me to try it with those shafts? What are you looking for?

BTW, if anybody has not seen the guts of a predator 314 shaft and its low endmass design, check out the link below. I did a little surgery on it after a player whacked it over the rail at a tournament.

www.fargopool.com/p314.jpg

mike page
fargo

I can't even remember why I wanted you to try those shafts, I get one or two posts into this crap about deflection and a Predator and my brain starts going numb.

I think the reason I wanted you to try those other shafts is because low deflection is accomplished without hollowing out the shaft like Predator for low end mass while still maintaining greater feel.

It's even NEWER technology than Predator. I guess it's just the do-gooder in me trying to help you...you might even play better with the other ones and get off of your Predator low end mass kick as the greatest thing out there.
IT AIN'T!!

Whatever you're trying to prove in your test, doesn't prove anything to me in the long run. There's ALWAYS a TRADE-OFF. What a Predator might be able to do in one EXTREME test that's more difficult to do with a regular one, is exactly the reason why you end up missing regular shots more frequently with the damn shaft. I would never put extreme english like that on a CB to begin with, so who cares.

I think the guy that smashed that shaft to smithereens was a very wise man!

 

[mikepage]

I can't even remember why I wanted you to try those shafts, I get one or two posts into this crap about deflection and a Predator and my brain starts going numb.

I think the reason I wanted you to try those other shafts is because low deflection is accomplished without hollowing out the shaft like Predator for low end mass while still maintaining greater feel.

It's even NEWER technology than Predator. I guess it's just the do-gooder in me trying to help you...you might even play better with the other ones and get off of your Predator low end mass kick as the greatest thing out there.
IT AIN'T!!

Whatever you're trying to prove in your test, doesn't prove anything to me in the long run. There's ALWAYS a TRADE-OFF. What a Predator might be able to do in one EXTREME test that's more difficult to do with a regular one, is exactly the reason why you end up missing regular shots more frequently with the damn shaft. I would never put extreme english like that on a CB to begin with, so who cares.

I think the guy that smashed that shaft to smithereens was a very wise man!

I said this once before, but I *really* think you're confusing me with someone else. You seem to think I like predator shafts. You seem to think I'm a proponent of low-end-mass technology. You seem to think--based on some history you think you recall I guess--that my post was about trying to convince people of the superiority of something. Read it again. I'm just trying to point out in a do-it-yourself memorable way that predator shafts squirt less than most others.

mike page
fargo

 

[drivermaker]

I said this once before, but I *really* think you're confusing me with someone else. You seem to think I like predator shafts. You seem to think I'm a proponent of low-end-mass technology. You seem to think--based on some history you think you recall I guess

mike page
fargo

Maybe you're right. So, what shaft DO you play with? And if you found that experiment with the Predator to be so amazing, why did you opt not to use it if that's the case?

 

[mikepage]

Maybe you're right. So, what shaft DO you play with? And if you found that experiment with the Predator to be so amazing, why did you opt not to use it if that's the case?

I've been playing with a Schon for a while now. I got a new Josey last spring that got "lost" three weeks after I got it when I checked it with an airline. Keith's making me another one and it should be ready in a month. I also own a predator, a couple schulers, a layani, a sherm, a scruggs sp, a pechauer, and a few others.

I don't use a predator primarily because I don't like the hit.

mike page
fargo