Cue Prices... Rediiculous!!!
- Thread starter Billiard Architect
- Start date
Hey everyone. I am currently into putting together and bulding guitars. I am learning very slowly in my spare time as I am aquiring more tools and equipment. I have been interested in making cues for a very long time. It is not easy to learn a skill and tool up for it and instantly make a ton of money. It is completely not fair to pick up a product and go " it only cost x amount in materials, to make this". You are totally undermining the the entire craft of the craftsman. You can buy all of the materials out of a catalog if you choose, so go ahead and spend the $100 you think it costs to build a cue, and take it to the poolroom. How does it play? Oh wait thats right it is not a cue yet. So maybe the cuemaker did add some value to those pieces of wood and components! When you buy a car, do you add up the pieces and say it's only worth this much?
You can buy a decent cue for around $100-150. If you do not think it is worth it, don't buy it! It is very insulting to say what an artists time is worth. Just about any item you can name has different levels of quality and price. If you only want basic transportation you can buy a used car for $1000. If you want the pride of owning a custom luxery sports car, built from scratch you may pay a bit more. Is it justified? That is for you to decide. Technically, a cars purpose is to get from point A to B, so is a custom car better for this purpose? We all know that people buy cars for a lot of different reasons other than basic transportation. Are these people idiots? Are they being taken advantage of? If they get what they want for a price they are willing to pay, than no. If you do not see the value in the price of the car, you can buy another one that suits your needs better at a lower price. Once you are spending over $1000 on a cue, the market is really more like an art market than a sporting goods market. Functional art is a term I like to use. Even so how much would it cost to have a one of a kind custom set of golf clubs, or a custom hand wired high end stereo component? Many times the price of the mass marketed competition. It is like this with anything, not just cues.
Another parallel, would be to tell a pro pool player that it is an awful lot of moey to win $20,000 in a few days of playing pool. I mean, what does that work out to an hour? Now, if you count the years and hours it took to develop the skill it took to win the tournament, and the travel expenses to get ther and the fact that they did this for a while before they got any return on their time and expenses, it is a different story. They make a lot less than any other pro athelete. Think about it.
You can buy a decent cue for around $100-150. If you do not think it is worth it, don't buy it! It is very insulting to say what an artists time is worth. Just about any item you can name has different levels of quality and price. If you only want basic transportation you can buy a used car for $1000. If you want the pride of owning a custom luxery sports car, built from scratch you may pay a bit more. Is it justified? That is for you to decide. Technically, a cars purpose is to get from point A to B, so is a custom car better for this purpose? We all know that people buy cars for a lot of different reasons other than basic transportation. Are these people idiots? Are they being taken advantage of? If they get what they want for a price they are willing to pay, than no. If you do not see the value in the price of the car, you can buy another one that suits your needs better at a lower price. Once you are spending over $1000 on a cue, the market is really more like an art market than a sporting goods market. Functional art is a term I like to use. Even so how much would it cost to have a one of a kind custom set of golf clubs, or a custom hand wired high end stereo component? Many times the price of the mass marketed competition. It is like this with anything, not just cues.
Another parallel, would be to tell a pro pool player that it is an awful lot of moey to win $20,000 in a few days of playing pool. I mean, what does that work out to an hour? Now, if you count the years and hours it took to develop the skill it took to win the tournament, and the travel expenses to get ther and the fact that they did this for a while before they got any return on their time and expenses, it is a different story. They make a lot less than any other pro athelete. Think about it.
Pool Pro,
That is somewhat of what I said regarding the idea that a cue can be a piece of art. I would however say that some artists think their art is worth more than it is. It is not an insult to tell an artist what his work is worth. The market tells them that. One difficulty with cues is that there are a lot of uneducated people out there regarding them, and they are easily taken.
That is somewhat of what I said regarding the idea that a cue can be a piece of art. I would however say that some artists think their art is worth more than it is. It is not an insult to tell an artist what his work is worth. The market tells them that. One difficulty with cues is that there are a lot of uneducated people out there regarding them, and they are easily taken.
TrickyRicky
happy, happy, joy, joy!
mantis99 said:
It ain't just cues and art--- it's everything!
Ignorant sheep feed the shrewder foxes constantly.
The key to financial success is to be a fox.
If stupid people want "give" their money away, better to "me" than somebody else.
"A friend of mine" doesn't make "fancy" cues, "he" makes money off the boneheads that truly believe that their fancy cues make them a better player than "him" and "his" great-hitting Schon(s).
"He's" all for people buying over-priced cues-- makes it easier to pick out the juiciest sheep
Rick P.
I agree but it takes away from the bottom line of the gross sales of a limited number of cues. Many well known makers do several shows and large tournaments a year at considerable cost.mantis99 said:
Just guessing
But I would think most cuemakers, say at Dcc, would about break even selling cues on hand with expenses, but might make their profits off of new custom orders they got. Plus, they get their name out there more on a national level.
Chris Byrne said:
But I would think most cuemakers, say at Dcc, would about break even selling cues on hand with expenses, but might make their profits off of new custom orders they got. Plus, they get their name out there more on a national level.
This is it. There is at least 2 markets, 3 if you consider WalMart cues.cueman said:
True Custom cues and Production Cues. I was looking at prices of cues just the other day and it seemed that they're about the same in dollars as I paid for my first cues 35 years ago around $100 give or take $50, which was the case then for a production cue. I think most of this is beacuse of what Hightower touches on. The CNC machines are more expensive with greater capibilities, one of which is higher production rates through automation and programing. Also as with many industries the manufacturing has gone overseas for lower labor costs.
That all said the market must and does drive prices. Production Cues stay between $50 and $350 and High End cues go off from there to whatever someone wants to pay with much of the cost attributed to inlay work although my cue was purchased because of the reputation of the builders knowledge in making a cue for the game I play not his inlay skills. In fact this cue has a very modest amount of inlay work but was priced considrably out of your stated range but worth every penny. By far the best playing cue I've ever hit a ball with. That's what I wanted and I needed to pay for that to have it. If the builders knowledge didn't make a difference we'd all be playing with or buying house cues for $25.
I think the biggest issue is inflation as one other poster noted. I mean back in the early 90's you could get a Mitsubishi pickup for $5 to 6 thousand. NOw price an import mini truck. House prices have gone up tremendously. Things just cost more now. If things aren't going up in price, then it's because something has come along to cut the cost of the object, automation, cheaper materials, etc. Although CNC is making things more interesting in the cue world, it really isn't making time for the cuemaker. To make it, the cue maker HAS to charge more, and if the consumer wants to purchase a cue, he has to pay the cost. It's a tough world, and small businesses have to do what they can to survive. I'm a hobbyist, and I have no desire to ever try and make a living at building cues, but I have owned my own business, and it's tough to make it work. Good luck with getting the cue you want.
Buddha,
I know alot has to do with the person's name and how well they are known for making a excellent cue.
But if you was to take say a Gilbert 4 pointer and a Scruggs 4 pointer, and then have someone look at the cues and tell them well this cue costs 1200$ and this one costs 1800$ Its tough to explain why they are different prices yet both 4 pointers.
I am all for cue-maker's earning a living building cues. I can only think of a couple of custom cue makers who are really over priced, which i am not naming.
For the most part I think 99% of the prices people pay for a cue is correct. Expecially if you look at the time,expenses, costs of equipment and supplies.
Pricing of cues is all about Supply and Demand.
I know alot has to do with the person's name and how well they are known for making a excellent cue.
But if you was to take say a Gilbert 4 pointer and a Scruggs 4 pointer, and then have someone look at the cues and tell them well this cue costs 1200$ and this one costs 1800$ Its tough to explain why they are different prices yet both 4 pointers.
I am all for cue-maker's earning a living building cues. I can only think of a couple of custom cue makers who are really over priced, which i am not naming.
For the most part I think 99% of the prices people pay for a cue is correct. Expecially if you look at the time,expenses, costs of equipment and supplies.
Pricing of cues is all about Supply and Demand.
StormHotRod300 said:
Well, the name alone explains the price difference, as you point out later on in your post (supply/demand).
Let's use another comparison, only because I've seen a wider range of Scruggs in regards to pointwork: a plain 4 pointer w/veneers from John Showman vs. the same Gilbert. Name and rep aside, I would gladly pay more for the Showman because imo (which means this might only be important to me, lol) Showman cuts a better point overall.
His veneer work is almost untouchable, and his point geometry is tighter than can be. I also think (and again, this is MO) that getting the points closer is harder to execute generally, and more demanding on your equipment and tolerances.
So everything being equal, I do place value differences on what I perceive to be different levels of workmanship. Points/veneers are the central design theme to any cue that I would buy, and they are the most important skill---aesthetically---for a cuemaker to achieve and perfect, imo.
-Roger
money
I have about $500,000.00 invested in my building, and machinery. Didn't happen over night, but over a long period of time. This is not including all the hours, and new equipment I develope for cuemakers world wide. Even with all my stuff paid for, my monthly nut is over $3,500.00.....
Blud
Not bad money for an average of 70 plus hours a week. PLEASE, the guy "Johnny V", should invest in a shop, about $25,000.00 for starters, and give himself about 10 yrs to learn, "how to", then see what he would charge....Go out and work 70 plus hours for that small amount of dough.....Yes, Most cuemaker I know put in 60 to 80 hours a week, just trying to keep up, plus making new jigs, and fixtures so they can be even more productive at what they do. They need about $10,000.00 worth of stock at all times. As sooon as you sell 2 or 3 cues, you re-stock with even more woods and tooling. No way to get around it.PunchOut said:This isnt simply a markup situation.....the average CUSTOMcue maker makes roughly 100-125 cues a year if he is lucky. If he didnt sell a cue for over $1000, he would generate roughly $87,000(125x700) in gross sales. Materials im guessing would equal out to $25,000(125x200). Oh yeah, what if he wants to work in an actual workshop and not his garage. Tack on atleast $1200 for rent or 14,400. I live in california and you are freaking dreaming to find a office space for under $1600. Now lets throw in additional overhead for bad wood, repairs on machinery, and everything else we dont know about the custom cue business at $10,000.
Gross Income: $87,000
Materials: -$25,000
Rent: -$14,400
Expenses: -$10,000
Annual Salary: $37,600
If this cuemaker wants to raise a family or for that matter buy a house, forget about it!
Im sure my material costs are totally unrealistic since he will be doing high end inlaid cues with ivory for around $1000.
THERE YOU GO BUDDY, LOW PRODUCTION = HIGH PRICES, GO BUY A Lucasi or something
I have about $500,000.00 invested in my building, and machinery. Didn't happen over night, but over a long period of time. This is not including all the hours, and new equipment I develope for cuemakers world wide. Even with all my stuff paid for, my monthly nut is over $3,500.00.....
Blud
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OK OK OK, Blud, Sherm and the rest I got it. I guess I was looking at an individual cue purchase as a consumer and not looking at the big picture. I stand corrected and hope none of you poke me in the nose when you see me.
JV<--- Will be the guy with the black eye when you see me @ a trade show
JV<--- Will be the guy with the black eye when you see me @ a trade show
And here it is 2024. Looks like prices are the same yet I still think they are high. Btw, I agree with all you say. A Pechuaer is a flat bargain now with a lifetime warpage guarantee. Can someone explain why anyone would fork over thousands for a cusrom?. Right now, a Drexler plain Jane, and I mean plain selling for 1575. It was 1775. Pool cues are not rocket science. Look at every custom site and no cues are available. My guess is that they don't want to sell, just build. The sellers get a cut that causes prices to remain high. I have seen simple break cues by some for 450 on up. Usually 650. Really?
How did you find a SEVENTEEN yr old thread?? Talk about a resurrection.
What your going thru is similar to a long time good player finding/trying/testing/buying an ld/cf.OK OK OK, Blud, Sherm and the rest I got it. I guess I was looking at an individual cue purchase as a consumer and not looking at the big picture. I stand corrected and hope none of you poke me in the nose when you see me.
JV<--- Will be the guy with the black eye when you see me @ a trade show
I've always said, buy a VW before you get a Benz.
oscargrouch
Active member
Here's a data point FWIW: bought a new Lucasi around the time this thread started - the price of essentially the same one new now is up about 7.5% per year over that time.
smiling_Hans
Well-known member
Customs have always been an inflated market. I suggest people call the cue maker and get a quote for a build than buying used. You get a brand new cue, letter of authenticity and more bells and whistle than a used cue. Used cues have been played with and most don't have the letter of authenticity. Some of these cues I call 'whores' they have been passed or traded amongst collectors. Some cues have been around. LOL
As for production cues, they are more a gauge of real prices. Yes, they have been high but not much since this thread was first created. You can get some pretty good cues for what I call cheap.
My guess is that the prices on cues depend on man hours of labor and the material required. The charge for labor depends on what it costs to open the doors to the shop every morning, electricity, HVAC, cost of floor space, employees, machinery and equipment, (1 local cue maker has 17 lathes, I counted them), insurance, wages, etc. Once you figure all that stuff out you can then decide if cue prices are out of line.
Meticulous G
Member
I'm glad this ol' thread popped up...I enjoyed reading the entire thing (keeping "my mouth shut" & thumb off the like button 'til I reached present day 
)
As an artist myself (a benchworking/mounted torch borosilicate glassblower) we experience similar, with startup/equipment, time & wasted materials, learning to become proficient, cost ratios
(Back in the hand pipe making days, a simple piece that retailed for $25 - $50 was $.03 - $.15 worth of materials & took only 10 minutes to make, NOT counting critical kiln time
...but it normally took AT LEAST a week or 2 of wasting everything, before the 1st success, and for some, no amount of time was guaranteed to get them there
...it's an easy question to answer, & many of y'all pretty much got it, but here's my .02
Yes, anyone should be able to get a cue that's high quality in the hit/play/feel department, for less than a used lease car
But even the most base, plain jane stick in the highest league, is only going to come from a maker who's put in the time, made all the mistakes, aand burned through the amount of energy, tools, and materials it takes to get full awareness of all that's important, and how to execute all the techniques to get there (even develop whatever gives theirs, their signature whatever)
So that maker definitely deserves more than the materials and time that they put into that 1 particular cue
(even call it $60 - $100/hr, which is about the LEAST any master/specialist should get)
We must consider the cost of everything that makes theirs a better fit, than the 1 that's "only" $80 - $150
That said...everything that goes into a piece that isn't essential to getting a ball into a pocket
...is ART
That includes learning and doing, even pioneering techniques, tools, decorations, customization styles, etc
Developing the ability to do EACH of these types of things increases costs exponentially, and (if lucky) in proportion to the difficulty and uniqueness
By now, we're talking about the few who have become capable of producing "a masterpiece"
Aand when owning a piece made by such an artist, by extention, gives even the buyer status in others eyes
...it should be even that much more expensive/valuable
Thx
)As an artist myself (a benchworking/mounted torch borosilicate glassblower) we experience similar, with startup/equipment, time & wasted materials, learning to become proficient, cost ratios
(Back in the hand pipe making days, a simple piece that retailed for $25 - $50 was $.03 - $.15 worth of materials & took only 10 minutes to make, NOT counting critical kiln time
...but it normally took AT LEAST a week or 2 of wasting everything, before the 1st success, and for some, no amount of time was guaranteed to get them there
...it's an easy question to answer, & many of y'all pretty much got it, but here's my .02
Yes, anyone should be able to get a cue that's high quality in the hit/play/feel department, for less than a used lease car
But even the most base, plain jane stick in the highest league, is only going to come from a maker who's put in the time, made all the mistakes, aand burned through the amount of energy, tools, and materials it takes to get full awareness of all that's important, and how to execute all the techniques to get there (even develop whatever gives theirs, their signature whatever)
So that maker definitely deserves more than the materials and time that they put into that 1 particular cue
(even call it $60 - $100/hr, which is about the LEAST any master/specialist should get)
We must consider the cost of everything that makes theirs a better fit, than the 1 that's "only" $80 - $150
That said...everything that goes into a piece that isn't essential to getting a ball into a pocket
...is ART
That includes learning and doing, even pioneering techniques, tools, decorations, customization styles, etc
Developing the ability to do EACH of these types of things increases costs exponentially, and (if lucky) in proportion to the difficulty and uniqueness
By now, we're talking about the few who have become capable of producing "a masterpiece"
Aand when owning a piece made by such an artist, by extention, gives even the buyer status in others eyes
...it should be even that much more expensive/valuable
Thx