Cueball Question

[Greg/Diamond]

I have the ability and have had the ability to retrofit all the Valley, Dynamo, Global etc. tables for some time now...I could make them all use a regular cueball (non weighted) and since there are approximately 500,000 of these tables still in exsistence I could make alot of money...I could even use this money to run a great Pro Tour, which has been a goal of mine since I started Diamond....

I decided that even if the normal cueball was used, there remained so many other issues with those tables that needed fixed (angles, slate depth, levelness, pocket openings etc.).....that anything but a replacement IMO would be a disservice to pool in general and keep it from being a sport........I feel every sport needs an amateur basis to exist and if I didn't establish specifications on the amateur tables as well as the Pro then we would never be considered a true sport....How can anyone think Pool will ever be anything if it's thought of as just a game!!!.....Pool could never be taken seriously IMO being just a game..

It even came to a point where a couple of potential customers got upset when I told them I wouldn't sell them sensors for their tables.....I know I can't replace all the tables out there and I'm having second thoughts that maybe I should have offered the sensor as a replacement...Or if it was availiable, how important is a regular cueball anyway?? Only recently do I remember seeing much concern about the cueball from players......No revolt.....Mark Griffin even offered to buy 3 extra red circle cue balls per table so his BCA players didn't have to play with a magnet cueball as the first year he bought the BCA League still had to use Valleys till the Diamonds could be brought in...IMO that's someone whose looking out for their players........I do know that players can make a difference in many locations...Why can't tables be opened or extra regular cueballs be used at tournaments.....What's the answer??..or someone may say what's the question?...either will do.....late nite rambling with some flustrations........Greg/Diamond

 

[DRW]

retired

I have the ability and have had the ability to retrofit all the Valley, Dynamo, Global etc. tables for some time now...I could make them all use a regular cueball (non weighted) and since there are approximately 500,000 of these tables still in exsistence I could make alot of money...I could even use this money to run a great Pro Tour, which has been a goal of mine since I started Diamond....

I decided that even if the normal cueball was used, there remained so many other issues with those tables that needed fixed (angles, slate depth, levelness, pocket openings etc.).....that anything but a replacement IMO would be a disservice to pool in general and keep it from being a sport........I feel every sport needs an amateur basis to exist and if I didn't establish specifications on the amateur tables as well as the Pro then we would never be considered a true sport....How can anyone think Pool will ever be anything if it's thought of as just a game!!!.....Pool could never be taken seriously IMO being just a game..

It even came to a point where a couple of potential customers got upset when I told them I wouldn't sell them sensors for their tables.....I know I can't replace all the tables out there and I'm having second thoughts that maybe I should have offered the sensor as a replacement...Or if it was availiable, how important is a regular cueball anyway?? Only recently do I remember seeing much concern about the cueball from players......No revolt.....Mark Griffin even offered to buy 3 extra red circle cue balls per table so his BCA players didn't have to play with a magnet cueball as the first year he bought the BCA League still had to use Valleys till the Diamonds could be brought in...IMO that's someone whose looking out for their players........I do know that players can make a difference in many locations...Why can't tables be opened or extra regular cueballs be used at tournaments.....What's the answer??..or someone may say what's the question?...either will do.....late nite rambling with some flustrations........Greg/Diamond

When I talked to you at the ball polishing machine at the BCAPL nationals, you said you were retired. You pulling a Brett Favre or something?:grin-square: I hate the arimith bar ball they use on the Valley's. Hope you gitr done. See you at the Derby. Don Westbrooks

 

[Rod]

We had Dynamo tables in our room with the heavy Red Dot cue ball. We had some complaints that the CB was just to heavy. Only players with better strokes could draw it any distance. We decided to open are tables and use the Red Circle for tournaments and league play.
It made everyone happy so it was a win win situation.

We no longer own the room but at the time I wished Diamond had made something like this available. Then and now I think to expect owners of small rooms to buy new Diamonds is not very realistic. Sure in time some will but most bars and small rooms probably won't.

If your asking, I think the product will be well recieved. You make it and they will buy it provided the price is fair. I know I would have at that time.

Rod

 

[Fatboy]

I have the ability and have had the ability to retrofit all the Valley, Dynamo, Global etc. tables for some time now...I could make them all use a regular cueball (non weighted) and since there are approximately 500,000 of these tables still in exsistence I could make alot of money...I could even use this money to run a great Pro Tour, which has been a goal of mine since I started Diamond....

I decided that even if the normal cueball was used, there remained so many other issues with those tables that needed fixed (angles, slate depth, levelness, pocket openings etc.).....that anything but a replacement IMO would be a disservice to pool in general and keep it from being a sport........I feel every sport needs an amateur basis to exist and if I didn't establish specifications on the amateur tables as well as the Pro then we would never be considered a true sport....How can anyone think Pool will ever be anything if it's thought of as just a game!!!.....Pool could never be taken seriously IMO being just a game..

It even came to a point where a couple of potential customers got upset when I told them I wouldn't sell them sensors for their tables.....I know I can't replace all the tables out there and I'm having second thoughts that maybe I should have offered the sensor as a replacement...Or if it was availiable, how important is a regular cueball anyway?? Only recently do I remember seeing much concern about the cueball from players......No revolt.....Mark Griffin even offered to buy 3 extra red circle cue balls per table so his BCA players didn't have to play with a magnet cueball as the first year he bought the BCA League still had to use Valleys till the Diamonds could be brought in...IMO that's someone whose looking out for their players........I do know that players can make a difference in many locations...Why can't tables be opened or extra regular cueballs be used at tournaments.....What's the answer??..or someone may say what's the question?...either will do.....late nite rambling with some flustrations........Greg/Diamond

i big on taking over the world, so if i was in your shoes, like we have talked about many times. Do what you do best and create a product that is Diamond(and thats up to you) the market will adapt to it(what ever the "it" is) over time, you need to get more boxes out there and take control of the market and not let the market dictate your buiness decisions.

This theory is applicable to your industry, for many reasons. Some business'es have to follow what the customers demand-in your case they dont/ I'll tell you why later too much to type.

Stay focused on the production and distribution of the 7' product and you'll be fine. Distribution is your weakest link. Your product is your strongest link. call me over the weekend when you have 60-90 minutes.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Greg,

I love this topic. For me, the cue ball is the most important consideration on a table. It is the only ball you use on every shot. A correct cueball allows one to play the game properly, such that the other deficiencies in the table are able to be compensated for. I strongly hope that you offer the cue ball sensor. Most people are ignorant about the differences between cueballs. As such, most bars don't care much about their equipment. Replacing the whole table so that you can use a real cue ball is not too likely in many bars. Are you talking about $200? $500? What sort of price range is this conversion? If you want, I will poll the bars in my APA division (the players and/or the owners), and let you know what they think. I play in Lawrence, MA, which is a crap hole of a town. There is a mix--one bar has 2 Diamonds, most open the table and use a real cue ball, and some bars use the Dynamo tables with the crazy heavy red dot ball. A hilarious paradox is that when you ask the poor fools in these bars if they want to play with a regular ball, their response is that "no, that will take away our home field advantage". This is funny for several reasons. First, it implies that they are not capable of beating you without an "advantage". Second, they only play 1/2 the games at home and will thus be at an equal "disadvantage" when playing away. Of course third, and funniest, is that these teams are always at the bottom of the pack, and never go anywhere in the playoffs!

Good luck with your ideas,

KMRUNOUT

 

[JimS]

Improvement of the game will have to come one step at a time. Begin w/the cue ball and maybe someday sell'm a table and along the way you can, as you suggested, use the proceeds to set up that long dreamed of pro tournament circuit.

Get into their market, into their bar, into their heads and hearts, and let them know you are who you say you are, just as the rest of the pool community has learned. Eventually you might sell them on buying "real" pool tables.

 

[selftaut]

Greg,

IMO, its only the top players in any particular region that know and/or care about the cueball issue, the common bar player doesn't know and/or doesn't care. Then there is all the other issues with those tables that you already mentioned, with the biggest issue being the rubber backed carpet that you find on a lot of these boxes.

That being said I think these players could be educated as to the difference in playability if they did have something to compare to. If they had a table in the area that was fitted with your censor and the cueball replaced with a red circle, the entire set of balls replaced, simonis or championship tour put on, then I think you would start a buzz in that area about that particular table and that converting is the way to go. But as I mentioned JUST changing the cueball may not make any difference at all on most these players on these boxes. But if the boxes were set up right (as can be) then you have something.

I think that you could create a market for your product, but I think you would be better off selling the entire setup with censor, new balls, and cloth replacement as a package and done by a diamond certified mechanic, all for one price. Perhaps do a a few test market upgrades to get some feedback. I don't know what your cost is to do such a job, obviously you would be selling just the products and making a marginal profit and the mechanic would be making labor. I don't think you would find many bars to pay more than 500-600 bucks for this total upgrade I mention. But such a service does have a market IMO.

Kev
14and1.com

 

[Bigkahuna]

Some great responses here. As a player yes lets replace the heavy cue ball. However, who is going to pay for it and then how many people are going to notice the difference? Oh we bring the spotted TV ball with us and change it out then some people object to the spots. Those are the people that won't understand the difference.

The place we play out of on Tuesdays is a sports bar and a vendor supplies the table which is a Shelti well let's just call it sh*tty. When we first started playing out of there the place had just opened, a year ago. The table was brought in and it needed cloth real bad. The cloth was faded and had a ton of chaulk in it. We just got new cloth about three weeks ago. I come back from the APA nationals and the table is all pilled up I mean they are everywhere. Where is the table brush, "what is that, oh we don't have one". So, I find a push broom take the handle off then take my pocket comb to the clean the hair out of the bristles. Brush the table down and now I can level it. Yes, after the table cloth was replaced the table was way out of level. This table was so out of level the last time we played on it we figured out we could lag on the left side and the ball would be in the middle of the table. Our opponent would lag on the right and lose due to the ball hitting the rail. Oh, you may ask why we play out of there, well, he is one of the very few that pay our weekly dues.

When I showed up to do all this stuff before the match starts there were two guys playing on it and they were telling me how fast the table was and how nice it played. The table after I brushed it off I must have noticed a dozen hole in the cloth. I look over at the rack where the bar cues are and two out of five do not have tips. These are the conditions that are out there!

I am sure there will be some market for this device and yes you should put it out there as an improvement for those who wish to help the players. However, my opinion is that unfortunatley most vendors and or bar owners will not spend the money.

 

[sfleinen]

Changing the "nature" of bar table play

Greg:

First, I have to commend you on your customer service, and willingness to do something positive in the marketplace you play in. Very admirable, indeed!

Second, let me humbly remind everyone of the marketplace's foundation for the 7-foot tables to begin with -- and that is coin-operated tables. Most establishments that I've encountered that have these tables do not want to part with the revenue that comes from these tables, and get this -- *especially* from league play!! For them, the league players are a good source of revenue, and many establishments would quietly say that's the reason why they have the league there in the first place -- a reliable "customer" base that purchases food, drinks, and continually pops coins into those "one-hand-held-out-for-coins" bandits. I experience this all the time, when, after league play is over, I walk over to the manager and politely ask if he/she can take the panel out of the table (open it up) so that my friends and I can play a few games of One Pocket or straight pool (a veritable challenge on this type of equipment, but I digress). The answer has always been a steadfast refusal.

Where am I going with this? Unless *all* those tables (some quite old) were converted to a sensor capable of distinguishing a cue-ball not by weight or magnetism, but rather by "color luminosity," we're going to be dealing with those overweight/over-sized/magnetic cue-balls for quite some time. Essentially, that is the root, or foundation, of bar-table league play. Rainsford Givens has even authored a very fine tutorial on this very specialized playing environment, "The 8-ball Bible," which points-out the specialized skills needed to deal with the heavyweight cue-ball, e.g. "smash-through" shots, using a thicker shaft so that its wider tip has greater surface contact with that heavyweight cue-ball to "grab" it for English, etc.

I would venture to say (and I'm putting my head on the block here) that most establishments would not be willing to convert to a sensor-based system. For one thing, they don't see the table as "broken" ("don't scratch that which don't itch"). To them, that is an unnecessary cash outlay. A couple of posters have already answered that most of the "ham & egger" players wouldn't know the difference anyway.

I do believe that making sure the cue-ball used is a *quality* cue-ball is an extremely important aspect, especially in tournament conditions. Players having made it through tough playing conditions ("ground it out through the foxholes in the field") to the tournament, should be greeted with the best-possible playing conditions for the tournament. So a deficient cue-ball (like the Aramith "green S-logo'ed" ball that was pointed out by a recent poster (KMRUNOUT?) should be investigated and replaced with a higher-quality cue-ball. The Aramith Red-Dot may be much too heavy for most folks' preference, so perhaps an Aramith Blue-Dot instead? In my humble opinion, folks that've gained the positional skills with a heavyweight cue-ball shouldn't have to throw those skills away and "re-learn" how to deal with a brand-new "zingy" cue-ball in the tournament environment. It just doesn't reflect standard bar-table play, and actually may "break" some players' honed skills, much to their surprise/chagrin.

Now, I must point-out that I would just *love* for that heavyweight/over-sized/magnetic cue-ball to go away. I think it should've never existed in the first place; the cue-ball should be the same size and weight as the rest of the balls. But this is just not a realistic or rational expectation. When one walks up to a regulation 9-foot table, the expectation is "cue-ball is same size/weight as the rest of the balls," but then that expectation changes when one walks up a 7-foot coin-operated bar table (heavyweight/magnetic/over-sized cue-ball). I applaud you for taking an interest in correcting this situation, and the "perfect world" side of me enthusiastically supports you. However, the pragmatic side of me warns you that it's not going to be easy, and you're only going to have partial success (you'll only make a partial dent -- like you say, there's hundreds of thousands of tables out there -- and most of the establishments don't see their tables as "broken"). But a source of revenue is a source of revenue, and if you can make some bucks in the conversion process (i.e. standing up a specialized "bar table conversion" branch of customer services), more power to you!

I hope this is helpful feedback,
Sean

I have the ability and have had the ability to retrofit all the Valley, Dynamo, Global etc. tables for some time now...I could make them all use a regular cueball (non weighted) and since there are approximately 500,000 of these tables still in exsistence I could make alot of money...I could even use this money to run a great Pro Tour, which has been a goal of mine since I started Diamond....

I decided that even if the normal cueball was used, there remained so many other issues with those tables that needed fixed (angles, slate depth, levelness, pocket openings etc.).....that anything but a replacement IMO would be a disservice to pool in general and keep it from being a sport........I feel every sport needs an amateur basis to exist and if I didn't establish specifications on the amateur tables as well as the Pro then we would never be considered a true sport....How can anyone think Pool will ever be anything if it's thought of as just a game!!!.....Pool could never be taken seriously IMO being just a game..

It even came to a point where a couple of potential customers got upset when I told them I wouldn't sell them sensors for their tables.....I know I can't replace all the tables out there and I'm having second thoughts that maybe I should have offered the sensor as a replacement...Or if it was availiable, how important is a regular cueball anyway?? Only recently do I remember seeing much concern about the cueball from players......No revolt.....Mark Griffin even offered to buy 3 extra red circle cue balls per table so his BCA players didn't have to play with a magnet cueball as the first year he bought the BCA League still had to use Valleys till the Diamonds could be brought in...IMO that's someone whose looking out for their players........I do know that players can make a difference in many locations...Why can't tables be opened or extra regular cueballs be used at tournaments.....What's the answer??..or someone may say what's the question?...either will do.....late nite rambling with some flustrations........Greg/Diamond