cuemaker integrity

Call me a full-splice snob...

tpdtom said:
I for one, greatly prefer the makers who feature the classic designs of Balabushka, Rambow, Szamboti etc. I don't see too many "original" styles that I like enough to lay down big bucks for. In fact, nothing I've ever seen could tempt me away from those previously mentioned Master's general styles.

That being said, I still appreciate the originality of makers like Bill Stroud, Tim Scruggs, Richard Black, Joel Hercek, Paul Mottey,and Chris Nitti on cues where it occurs, but I ORDER the classic designs. I just like them best...

<snip>

Frig originality...Tom

I'm with you. I grew up with classic designs all around me, and they possess a look and a feeling of tradition like no other. After finally getting my own full-splice cue about 5 years ago (in a Balabushka style), my search for The Grail is over.

I can fully appreciate the tedious work and art that goes into a cue, but I really don't care for CNC "points" and other, similar gingerbread. There's nothing like a nice ebony-into-maple with a few contrasting veneers.

Ken
 
N8IVE said:
A big thanks to you Mike! I recieved my cue the other day and it is great. I haven't had the time to email you back to let you know that I recieved it. The joint is perfect and I couldn't have asked for anything better. Sorry about not letting you know that I live in Alaska. I look forward to doing business with you and purchasing a cue from you in the future. Thanks again Mike!

Thank you, Glad I could be of service.
 
jazznpool said:
Yo Joe, In any for of human endeavor or craft there is a knowledge base and what could be called informed opinion (you probably knew this). Cuemaking is no exception to that.

Yes, but there are 1000000 informed, probably 2x uninformed, opinions in cues. What needs to be explained to the consumer is that if you read interviews by every cuemaker, they all have alot in common. They all use the best construction methods available, they all use the best shaftwood, they all use the best joint, their cues have the best feedback. Now how can this be true if they all assemble the cues differently, they all use different joints and they all have different ideas of feedback.

jazznpool said:
I feel better about selling cues I know are made from quality components and are well constructed (They're not widgets to me). I've spent many hours talking with cuemakers (over a period of 30 years or more), wood dealers, and others and working in a cue shop to have more than a basic knowledge of cue construction. I've taken the time to travel and buy thousands of dollars of hardwoods and shaftwood and get educated about woods used to make cues. Of course there's always more to learn (and that keeps it fun). I couldn't tell you what adhesive was used in a cue but that is not an excuse for me to happy with a cuemaker using poor qualty adhesives. Some guys use contact cement to put tips on. You might not be able to tell the difference but I would never approve of this for cues I sell. I want the tips put on with cyano.

I think as a dealer, we all have the same idea of what we want in cues. I wouldn't want to sell inferior products either. As far as hardwoods, some people claim bacote has the best feedback. Ok fine, but compared to what and how do you quantify it? My problem with a lot of what I read is that there is no way to prove a lot of whats said, so in the end you have a lot of statements that don't help the cause, they just confuse customers.

jazznpool said:
I try to use what knowledge I have accumulated as a player, cue owner, cuemaker assistant, and dealer to help potential customers make informed decisions about their cue purchases. I don't pretend to know it all. I do know something, however, and have owned good cues since 1970 and high quality cues since 1977.

Experience is good, and its helpful. But what experience means in cues is YOUR experience. I'll touch on this a bit later.

jazznpool said:
My direct experience and discussions with other cuemakers I respect lead me to highly value tap tone in cue woods. To some this is akin to lunacy. The laminated cores that Ariel and a few others use are consistent in tone and also help produce a firm hitting forearm. Besides helping the cue stay straight, this is one of the other reasons I like cored forearms. I'm not downing non-cored cues. I have a pair of Searings coming (in this lifetime, I think:D ) and Dennis does not core at all. But, he will select out birdseye maple that has figure and relatively high tap tone. I don't want cues with forearms and shafts made from thuddy sounding woods for myself or any of my customers if I can help it. I might not be able to articulate the science of it but it has to do with the way the cue vibrates and feels in your hand when striking balls with it. That's my 3 cents.

Martin

You are looking at tap tones, and thats fine. I look at coring slightly different than you do. Does that make either one of us wrong, probably not, but when a consumer hears the plethora of information, he then needs to make a decision, usually predicated on presentation, or in most cases, price. What you are saying when you claim to not be able to articulate the science, is really it's a feel issue, or better yet a "hit" issue. The problem lies in the old adage that hit is subjective. So a thuddy sounding cue to you, may be the nuts to another.

You and I, base our opinions on what we like, and what we are used to. Also what our cuemakers feed us. We want, or better yet, need to agree with our cuemakers philosophy, because we need to be comfortable selling a product. There are other dealers, that would sell their mothers, without thinking about it for a second. You know us, we like classically designed cues. When Mark and I talk about adding a cuemaker to the stable, the criteria is simple. Its 4 points, veneers, traditional inlays, etc.. We don't sell anything else unless its consigned or traded. As you've stated here, your comfortable with Ariels cues and philosophy. That is what makes dealing cues interesting. Many cuemakers, different trains of thought, many cuedealers, different trains of though.

The best way I have found is to tell people the cue hits solid. If I tell someone the feedback is great, thats to me, I run the risk of getting told, WTF is this, I cannot feel anything. It's very personal, its why we have the return policy we do. We want the consumer to feel safe that the cue they are buying is sound and well made. But something as small as a tip change, could be the difference between a happy customer and an irate one.

I can appreciate your input, both as a former customer and a fellow dealer and thats great. I hope you didn't think I was pushing you, it was just a simple set of questions. Nor did I want to put you on the defensive, ahh maybe a little. :) Thank you again for sending us the Frye.

Best always,

JV
 
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hmmm

when it comes to integrity and pride in not letting a cue go out that isnt PERFECT then i have to give the nod to Rick Howard... i had him build me a custom cue and it didnt "look right" too him (it looked GREAT to me) but the two woods didnt match PERFECTLY in the inlays so he broke the cue down and re-built half of it so it would match... the cue looks GREAT now and plays twice as good as i ever imagined it would...

also the butt plate on my cue broke (stupid a$$ ex-girlfriend) and he replaced it no questions asked...
 
Joe, no offense taken at all. I respect your knowledge of cues. We're having a civil discussion. I agree that there is a ton of information available from various cuemakers and cue dealers and not much consensus on what makes a cue play well (we'll put looks aside for now). Some opinions are more valuable than others. You're right, I have my preferences and I have found that sometimes my preferences are not helpful to a customer! Case in point, I highly prefer a neutral balance (18-1/2 to 19" from end of buttcap). Some makers and customers prefer cues that are more "forward" balanced between 19" to 20". I have come to respect this even though I won't, myself, play with a cue balanced in this fashion. The various and competing philosophies on cuebuilding and cue specs help keep it interesting.

Martin





classiccues said:
Yes, but there are 1000000 informed, probably 2x uninformed, opinions in cues. What needs to be explained to the consumer is that if you read interviews by every cuemaker, they all have alot in common. They all use the best construction methods available, they all use the best shaftwood, they all use the best joint, their cues have the best feedback. Now how can this be true if they all assemble the cues differently, they all use different joints and they all have different ideas of feedback.



I think as a dealer, we all have the same idea of what we want in cues. I wouldn't want to sell inferior products either. As far as hardwoods, some people claim bacote has the best feedback. Ok fine, but compared to what and how do you quantify it? My problem with a lot of what I read is that there is no way to prove a lot of whats said, so in the end you have a lot of statements that don't help the cause, they just confuse customers.



Experience is good, and its helpful. But what experience means in cues is YOUR experience. I'll touch on this a bit later.



You are looking at tap tones, and thats fine. I look at coring slightly different than you do. Does that make either one of us wrong, probably not, but when a consumer hears the plethora of information, he then needs to make a decision, usually predicated on presentation, or in most cases, price. What you are saying when you claim to not be able to articulate the science, is really it's a feel issue, or better yet a "hit" issue. The problem lies in the old adage that hit is subjective. So a thuddy sounding cue to you, may be the nuts to another.

You and I, base our opinions on what we like, and what we are used to. Also what our cuemakers feed us. We want, or better yet, need to agree with our cuemakers philosophy, because we need to be comfortable selling a product. There are other dealers, that would sell their mothers, without thinking about it for a second. You know us, we like classically designed cues. When Mark and I talk about adding a cuemaker to the stable, the criteria is simple. Its 4 points, veneers, traditional inlays, etc.. We don't sell anything else unless its consigned or traded. As you've stated here, your comfortable with Ariels cues and philosophy. That is what makes dealing cues interesting. Many cuemakers, different trains of thought, many cuedealers, different trains of though.

The best way I have found is to tell people the cue hits solid. If I tell someone the feedback is great, thats to me, I run the risk of getting told, WTF is this, I cannot feel anything. It's very personal, its why we have the return policy we do. We want the consumer to feel safe that the cue they are buying is sound and well made. But something as small as a tip change, could be the difference between a happy customer and an irate one.

I can appreciate your input, both as a former customer and a fellow dealer and thats great. I hope you didn't think I was pushing you, it was just a simple set of questions. Nor did I want to put you on the defensive, ahh maybe a little. :) Thank you again for sending us the Frye.

Best always,

JV
 
jazznpool said:
Joe, no offense taken at all. I respect your knowledge of cues. We're having a civil discussion. I agree that there is a ton of information available from various cuemakers and cue dealers and not much consensus on what makes a cue play well (we'll put looks aside for now). Some opinions are more valuable than others. You're right, I have my preferences and I have found that sometimes my preferences are not helpful to a customer! Case in point, I highly prefer a neutral balance (18-1/2 to 19" from end of buttcap). Some makers and customers prefer cues that are more "forward" balanced between 19" to 20". I have come to respect this even though I won't, myself, play with a cue balanced in this fashion. The various and competing philosophies on cuebuilding and cue specs help keep it interesting.

Martin

Martin,
A civil discussion by two cue dealers. LOL.. God forbid... :) I remember your balance point questions a few years ago. I remember thinking WTF is this guys issues lol. I get a cue and I really don't measure the balance point. If it feels good, I buy it. If not, they can keep it. Somethings we buy just for the resale, at that point I test hit it and make sure it doesn't sound funny. Do the side tap test, etc..

Joe
 
Ok. Here is a picture of one of Ariel's "High End" cues. A lot of ebony and Ivory. And, you guessed it, the inlay material in the rings is far too dark to pop the way they should against this basewood (gaboon ebony).

The Points: Waaaay too short.
http://www.cornerstonecustomcues.com/images/cues/caremeli/lrgcaremeli/006g2.jpg

The rings: Virtually the same from one Carmeli to the next and no different here. Dark diamond inlays (and not particularly sharp). The only difference here is the large abalone diamonds which don't belong.
http://www.cornerstonecustomcues.com/images/cues/caremeli/lrgcaremeli/006g3.jpg

Overall cue: Again, note the rings at the joint and just above the buttcap. Barely visible. Rings should pop. They should stand out a little. Now the handle rings have small blue diamond inlays and large abalone inlays. Personally? I think the abalone is wrong. But thats just me. Note the length of the handle. A bit long for my taste. And as a result, the points are not tall enough.
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-59986167992737_1944_1094877

I assume this is 10 points in the forearm (5 high, 5 low) and the same in the butt sleeve. In short, its a Bender, only not done as well. That's just my take Martin. Its my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I'm also entitled to share it. If you don;t like it, don't read it. But I have every right to state that I don;t like someone's cues just as much as you have the right to come on here and claim they are the greatest.

We can disagree but lets do so respectfully.
 
I have to agree, I like the first cue, but Im not so crazy about that one.. and I agree the points look to me like they could be longer? in any case I liked the first cue, that one you can keep.




SPINDOKTOR
 
Brian, I happen to agree with you on that particular cue! That cue is 7 or 8 years old. I saw it in the shop not long ago. It was Ariels first ivory handled cue. I don't like rounded inlays or lapis (or malichite for that matter). Ariel makes some other "catalog" cues that aren't my cup of tea either (I'm not usually a fan of reverse points, for example), but he has dealers that have a market for them and he needs to pay the bills.

I don't have any problem with people expressing their dislike of a cuemaker or a particular cue or design. There are many cuemakers whose build quality and design work I like but the cues I've tried from them don't play good IMO. Some of these are cuemakers people generally drool over. I do have a problem if I see that someone is using a maker I represent as a punching bag. When I see that happen, I'll either dummy up or try to present the other side of the story if there is one.

Don't be mistaken, Ariels true custom cues are now coming out better than ever. He has new design tools and inlay machinery. Lots of good cue and shaftwood is in stock. The pointed forearms coming out of the shop as of now are as close to perfect as can be achieved! The new forearm jigs and milling machine are dead nuts. There will be more elaborately designed cues coming from Ariel in the coming months. Respectfully,

Martin


pharaoh68 said:
Ok. Here is a picture of one of Ariel's "High End" cues. A lot of ebony and Ivory. And, you guessed it, the inlay material in the rings is far too dark to pop the way they should against this basewood (gaboon ebony).

The Points: Waaaay too short.
http://www.cornerstonecustomcues.com/images/cues/caremeli/lrgcaremeli/006g2.jpg

The rings: Virtually the same from one Carmeli to the next and no different here. Dark diamond inlays (and not particularly sharp). The only difference here is the large abalone diamonds which don't belong.
http://www.cornerstonecustomcues.com/images/cues/caremeli/lrgcaremeli/006g3.jpg

Overall cue: Again, note the rings at the joint and just above the buttcap. Barely visible. Rings should pop. They should stand out a little. Now the handle rings have small blue diamond inlays and large abalone inlays. Personally? I think the abalone is wrong. But thats just me. Note the length of the handle. A bit long for my taste. And as a result, the points are not tall enough.
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-59986167992737_1944_1094877

I assume this is 10 points in the forearm (5 high, 5 low) and the same in the butt sleeve. In short, its a Bender, only not done as well. That's just my take Martin. Its my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I'm also entitled to share it. If you don;t like it, don't read it. But I have every right to state that I don;t like someone's cues just as much as you have the right to come on here and claim they are the greatest.

We can disagree but lets do so respectfully.
 
go to http://www.highendcues.com/ click on CARMELI (ARIEL)

Those are some nice looking cues, nothing like that other cue.... So I'll say I like MOST of Ariel's cue's, all but that short point one, the ones on HEC are simple yet elegant, Id be proud to own any of them. Kind of a Joss West kind of feel...


SPINDOKTOR
 
Nice of you to say that Dok. Those are sort of older model AC cues too. HEC also has a few really nice new higher dollar AC cues that are either already sold or not yet listed. Cornerstone also has several original high priced models, loaded with decor, coming soon. I'm looking forward to seeing them. I have three 8 point cues with all silver inlays and ivory short points with silver veneers in the works, ebony into camatillo rosewood wrapless, ebony into exhibition grade birdseye with elephant ear wrap, and an ebony into extremely rare fiddleback cocobolo with linen wrap. I'll post them here when they're done.

Martin



SPINDOKTOR said:
go to http://www.highendcues.com/ click on CARMELI (ARIEL)

Those are some nice looking cues, nothing like that other cue.... So I'll say I like MOST of Ariel's cue's, all but that short point one, the ones on HEC are simple yet elegant, Id be proud to own any of them. Kind of a Joss West kind of feel...


SPINDOKTOR
 
I have worked with Mike and am working with Mike Webb on a cue right now. He does take an incredible amount of pride in his work. He loves what he does, that is obvious from talking to him. His attention to detail is second to no one and I could not think of any cue maker that stands behind his work as Mike does. I would never go to anyone else after dealing with Mike.
 
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