Cuemaker quality standards.

a little different skill set

Canadian cue said:
M

Just to further complicate things, I use a pantograph and have made plenty of templates by hand. I have access to cnc so I have made them on the cnc as well. I canpost pics of the process if you wish. I have worked in a job manufacturing precision small parts most of my career and I can say with out a doubt that it makes no differance if you use manual or cnc equipment that it takes a certain type of individual to be able to do very detail orientated work. This type of skill IMO applies to cue making and inlay work. Having precise tools just allows you to do work to a higher standard.
Click to expand...

The skill sets to do tedius precision work and a very high level of craftsmanship are a bit different. I built record breaking pistols fitting almost all oversized parts when my biggest "machine tool" was a 14" mill file. I've machined to micro levels that I know from hard experience that not one in forty machine shops can turn out too, yeah there is a story there! Both take a high level of skill but they are different skills. Making a perfect pattern by hand takes one skill set, tracing it to cut perfect pockets or inlays takes another skill set. Tough to find people to do either one, but I can teach quite a few people to run a pantagraph, maybe 25% of decent level technicians. Maybe one in ten of those can be a tool and die maker, or a pattern maker at a really demanding level making the patterns by hand.

Then I have met a few master craftsmen. The first time I met a knife maker I watched him hollow grind a curved blade on the bottom roller of a belt sander totally free hand. When he got through he handed me the blade. "Do you believe that blade is .0005 thicker 3/8" in from the edge? .00025 on each side." Naturally I was more than a little skeptical but I made some polite noises. He handed me the blade which I had just watched him take from a pattern cut out of flat bar to a final blade shape without ever putting a measuring instrument or template on it. Needless to say, I wouldn't be telling the story if it wasn't indeed .0005 thicker 3/8" in front to back of the edge area when I measured with a ball mike. I didn't have a way to verify .00025" on each side but after finding the .0005 was dead nuts on end to end of the edged area I was a believer.

The handcut stuff may not always be as perfect as machine cut but when it is or is very close it is something I admire. A friend bought a $30,000 handmade violin. I don't know about such things but I can hardly imagine paying that much for a machine made instrument without value added materials, gold, jewels, or such to justify the price.

Hu
 
off and running again, whatta bunch of drool and drivel!

John,

Apparently the truth hurts you. You are just a pissant excuse for a human being. It shows in what you say and it shows in what you do. The fact that Mike H has said at least three times that you are a favored poster and has seemingly demonstrated that giving you far more rope than others gives you a certain freedom to be an ass on this forum. You are still just a yipping little cur hiding behind the big dog. Have fun typing, I quit reading this last drivel when I was laughing too hard to continue! :thumbup:

Hu



JB Cases said:
Gee, did you feel PERSONALLY attacked in some way? Look jerk, I wasn't attacking YOU I was discussing the points that have been brought up, one of which is YOUR assertion that hand cut inlay is better than computer cut inlays because of the NATURE of the process.

Yes of course a MACHINE can be set up to do a process and anyone can set the part and press the button and watch it do it's thing.

So what? I can train a person to cut perfect pockets and stand there and watch them do their thing.

Guess what, some days the person will have a bad day and not cut a perfect pocket. Some days the machine will have a bad day and not cut a perfect pocket.

That is not what we are discussing here. We are discussing the FINISHED product and why SOME people SEEM to get a pass for shoddy work while others do not.

You are such an ___________ and first class __________ that it's hard to understand how you can even get out of bed with a head the size that you have it. (per your claims of being the best they ever saw, which of course no one here can dispute)



#1 - where is your proof? Everything I have made is on display right here www.jbcases.com/casesbyname.html Why don't you SHOW US ALL what you think I have "stolen" from others and we can discuss it. Until then shut your mouth.

#2. You suspect? Why don't you enlighten us then as to what a mastercraftsman IS in your opinon and then we can compare notes as to whether I know what one is or not. By the way punk, I don't consider myself to be a mastercraftsman. I know a lot about leather work and I have invented a few techniques for putting leather pieces together that I haven't seen done before, but I am FAR FAR FAR away from being a master of the craft.

#3. Reminding you that AGAIN we are talking about the FINISHED product. So when speaking of the actual physical item, when we judge that item based on it's OWN merits then it's CLEAR to people who understand what goes into making that product what sort of effort is required. Thus WHEN you have a product that is a COPY of another product then IF that copy is as good as the original AND the original took a mastercraftsman to make it then it took a MASTERCRAFTSMAN to copy it. That was the point you waste of carbon. Not a debate on the morality of copying.

#4. You're a major waste of bandwidth. I doubt you could produce a quality fart much less anything of substance. You talk about all this stuff you claim to have done. Well you may have but it doesn't matter because you aren't putting anything on the BILLIARD market. You don't have any skin in the game so anything you have to say is hot air. People like me are in the market, our products have to pass scrutiny. So save your nonsense about how you labored for hours and weeks fretting over fly tracks on your auto body paint jobs. No one cares.

They care about learning about cues and why some cues cost a lot even though they have flaws. They care about learning the dynamics of the market and about flippers and dealers and hype and reputation and value.
Click to expand...
 
ShootingArts said:
John,

Apparently the truth hurts you. You are just a pissant excuse for a human being. It shows in what you say and it shows in what you do. The fact that Mike H has said at least three times that you are a favored poster and has seemingly demonstrated that giving you far more rope than others gives you a certain freedom to be an ass on this forum. You are still just a yipping little cur hiding behind the big dog. Have fun typing, I quit reading this last drivel when I was laughing too hard to continue! :thumbup:

Hu
Click to expand...

Oh please. I am not a "favored" poster. I am a contributing poster. I am not hiding behind anyone.

You're the one who was an "ass" Baby Huey. I didn't say ANYTHING about YOU. I discussed YOUR point as relates to MY experience using MY Computer Numerically Controlled Laser Engraver/Cutter.

With that device YOU, nor anyone else, will learn what to do from a book.

Nothing I wrote gave you license to make some absurd claim that I have built a career by stealing from others.

You said that just to be mean and hurtful. Everything I have done for 20 years is out in the open and on display for all to see. Instroke, the work I have done with Sterling, and now JB Cases.

What I have done and continue to do is part of the public record in the billiard industry.

You come on here and want to lecture us all and you ALWAYS have some example of how you were the greatest, the best, had the best shop in the area with a six month waiting list, was the best paint guy, the best businessman, the best shooter, the best local player ever, no matter what you have an "I was the best" story to fit any topic.

Fine. It's the internet, you can be whoever you want to be. But don't start making accusations you can't back up with your slanderous crap about me or you are in for a fight.

If you want to play forum police then I suggest you ban yourself because you decided to make this personal. I didn't say a damn thing to you that put you down in any way before you unloaded with your nonsense crap.

Frankly, I think you are a liar. I think that you make up most of what you write on AZB. You're a pretty good writer and you know how to tailor your stories to fit any topic. But I think you make most of it up. That's my opinion of you and your "experiences". Now maybe it's all true but even if true it doesn't matter.

I think you contribute some good writing to the forum from time to time, much the way that any self-help book contains some gems that are just good to read from time to time.
 
ShootingArts said:
The skill sets to do tedius precision work and a very high level of craftsmanship are a bit different. I built record breaking pistols fitting almost all oversized parts when my biggest "machine tool" was a 14" mill file. I've machined to micro levels that I know from hard experience that not one in forty machine shops can turn out too, yeah there is a story there! Both take a high level of skill but they are different skills. Making a perfect pattern by hand takes one skill set, tracing it to cut perfect pockets or inlays takes another skill set. Tough to find people to do either one, but I can teach quite a few people to run a pantagraph, maybe 25% of decent level technicians. Maybe one in ten of those can be a tool and die maker, or a pattern maker at a really demanding level making the patterns by hand.

Then I have met a few master craftsmen. The first time I met a knife maker I watched him hollow grind a curved blade on the bottom roller of a belt sander totally free hand. When he got through he handed me the blade. "Do you believe that blade is .0005 thicker 3/8" in from the edge? .00025 on each side." Naturally I was more than a little skeptical but I made some polite noises. He handed me the blade which I had just watched him take from a pattern cut out of flat bar to a final blade shape without ever putting a measuring instrument or template on it. Needless to say, I wouldn't be telling the story if it wasn't indeed .0005 thicker 3/8" in front to back of the edge area when I measured with a ball mike. I didn't have a way to verify .00025" on each side but after finding the .0005 was dead nuts on end to end of the edged area I was a believer.

The handcut stuff may not always be as perfect as machine cut but when it is or is very close it is something I admire. A friend bought a $30,000 handmade violin. I don't know about such things but I can hardly imagine paying that much for a machine made instrument without value added materials, gold, jewels, or such to justify the price.

Hu
Click to expand...

You aren't getting it Hue. The fact that you can't imagine something costing $30,000 without $29,500 worth of gold in it is precisely the reason you can't understand what we are talking about here.

As Thomas Wayne said in another thread the CNC is just a tool. When you have an object in your hands and you have no idea HOW it was made then you are judging the object, not the "story" behind it.

I find it funny that you admire something that was made by hand IF it is very close to the tolerances of something that was precisely cut by machine but you don't admire the precision of a piece cut by the machine.

That makes no sense. What if the guy who gets within .00001" by hand deicides that that isn't good enough for him and so he buys a CNC to increase the precision of the things he is building?

So in your mind if that guy was the best in the world and whittling "by hand" and he decided to switch to a engine driven whittling machine then now you lose respect for him?

Thomas said he could turn out a cue using three methods and no one on the planet could figure out which method was used to produce which cue. I don't have any reason to disbelieve Thomas Wayne when it comes to the art of making cues so assuming that what he says is true why should we care what the method was if the final product is identical?

The whole CNC vs hand-made is ridiculous. So you claim you made the best guns using a file and a rusty nail. Great for you. Now someone comes after you and buys one of your guns and figures out what makes it work so well and figures out how to make it using a computer driven file and they do and so then more people can have the benefit of getting great guns.

The whole point of this discussion isn't about what method was used.

It's about the finished cue.

No matter whether the cue was done using CNC or with a rusty hacksaw blade the finished product either shows flaws or it doesn't. People don't normally get a pass just because it's "hand work" unless they are fishing for a pass by leaning on the excuse that it's hand work.

When there are people who do hand work with the same level of precision as a machine then there is no excuse for anyone to turn out less than perfect work except that they WANT to put it out there. No one is forcing anyone to turn out work that is swimming in glue, has chips, and other "issues". So when a cue (or case) goes out that exhibits significant flaws, or any flaws, then in most cases it was deliberately allowed to enter the public consciousness.

As I stated before this often has more to do with economics than it does with skills. Cue makers just can't afford to keep burning cues that are less than perfect and most customers don't want to actually pay the price for perfect cues.

But sometimes it has to do with a lack of skills. Sometimes the cue maker can't control his hands well enough when hand-cutting inlays or can't control his machine well enough when cutting them using the computer driven cutter.

Either way, the only way to get a pass is to either have built a reputation that transcends precision, or to be so inexpensive that the buyers don't care about imprecision.

That's what the thread is about.
 
asiasdad said:
Good point Bill,

Lamborghini, Ferrari, and Corvette all offer
similiar lousy return on investment.

Big name cues are not much different than the housing industry.
The entire premise is under the bigger fool theory. Unless you
are an industry insider, you are the bigger fool.

See how tanked most mortgage holding americans are in their
homes these days, and you get my point in reference to "investment"
The bankers got bonus checks, and the homeowners got screwed.

After all what is an investment, if it is not a gamble ?

So when it comes down to it, the strongest investments
would be in God, gold, guns, and ammunition.

Not sticks and stones.
Click to expand...

Amen , now pass the ammo
 
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