Cues VS. Economy

JonTravisTaylor said:
How can cue prices be justified? In todays economy you would think pricing would go down or at least stabalize...is a 6 point BB with no inlays really worth 8k?? Or a dufferin bought from Walmart, then given to Searing for a "conversion" price...2500.00?? REALLY? I just don't get it. Don't get me wrong I have had some expensive cues, and sure some play great and look very nice, but some of the prices I am seeing seem a bit skewed. If you spend 6k and get the cue straight from the cue maker, should you ever be able to feel the rings?? I don't think so! Anyway...feel free to share some stories, both good and bad about pricing and quality...;)
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Jon,
How dare you come on here and mention anything about prices. Don't you know to keep you mouth shut about this? There may be some sucker come on here and actually pay the asking price. Please openly apologize in this thread.
Regards,
Mark
 
High End Price Point

dr9ball said:
OneBallEddie, you raise an interesting question. At what price point does an item become "high end"? Obviously it depends on the item. So let's consider custom cues.
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My opinion is that if a cue sells for $2500 or more it is "high end."
 
oneballeddie said:
The economy is roaring for the top 1% who can afford to buy high end items.
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Exactly correct. Wealth and price point are relative. A cue becomes priced too high if it is bought by someone with a credit card while the electric bill is overdue and the kids need braces. Otherwise it's simple free market economics and supply and demand.

Would I pay $2500 for a $5 house cue that some cue maker dude chopped in half with a hack saw and added a $3 joint while whittling before he got famous? Not a chance, even if I was a billionaire. But I also wouldn't use most of the art selling for 7 figures as toilet paper or the million dollar cocktail tables out there as kindling wood. This kind of crap is just god telling people they have too much wealth. But they aren't listening. "Collecting" is just hoarding in the milder form of the psychological disorder. Some of you would buy so many cues you would have to climb over them to go to bed if you could. Seek help!!

JC
 
1pRoscoe said:
Rolex > Seiko
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Patek Phillipe > Rolex

Good players don't need or use expensive cues. It all depends on what you want to get our of your experience with pocket billiards. Are you a player or a collector? I haven't known many who were BOTH. Mike Surber (RIP) was a cue collector and a brilliant player, but that is the exception rather than the rule.

And anyone who tells you that the "hit" of a "custom" cue is far superior than that of a "production" (gasp) cue, well, they're telling you a lie, or they are repeating something they've heard - but they don't truly play good enough to be qualified to express a knowledageable opinion. A good Schon, Meucci (yes), Predator, Mezz, Joss, Lucasi, Scorpion, Cuetec, Nick Varner, or Fury (I don't know them all) can hit as good as any $25,000 cue you can buy...maybe better. I know a guy who has an original 60's JOSS who prefers to play with an "Action" Sneaky pete...and that cue does play jam up. There are some bad hitting production cues and some bad hitting custom cues. The key is that you like:

1. The balance
2. The taper (butt/shaft)
3. The tip
4. Stability of the construction/wood.

There are some other factors that will affect what you may like or not like about the playability but those are the biggies.That is it. Those affect how you are going to like the playability...not ivory inlays or design.

Some of these posts are coming off as insulting and I would just say don't insult guys who like to spend big bucks on cues. If you can't afford an expensive cue but really want one, then figure out how to make more money so you can afford one. Don't talk trash about those who can, acting as if they're unintelligent for deciding to buy cues. Guess what? They're very intelligent. Most of these guys are successful millionaires who might spend a million on their cue collection, but that million might be like an average person spending $5000. It will mean something, but it would'nt make or break you if it went up in flames.

Everyone doesn't get into the sport at an early age and may never be more than adequate as players. Building a cue collection is something they can find enjoyable, develop relationships with cuemakers and other collectors, and make a name for themselves within our little world and that is a good thing. If it makes people happy, then it is good!
 
quadrary said:
actually only if the rolex keeps better time. And for me any off the shelf cistom not specifically made for me will not be better for a cue snob looking for bragging rights i guess thats true.
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Owning a Rolex for those who love watches has NOTHING to do with keeping the time. A Timex Ironman will keep better time than a Rolex. A Rolex lover buys a Rolex for the history associated with the brand. Rolex's marketing is superior to any other watch in the history of watches. It's designs are fantastic as well, it has a variety of beautifully made in-house movements (although not always) although Rolex has been known for some "cue design theft" as well. They're most popular design, the Submariner, was actually borrowed/altered for a Blancpain 50 Fathoms. Well, Rolex improved it (in my opinion) and made that design what it is today.

In the watch collecting world though, Rolex is equivalent to Schon cues. Tudor, which is owned/manufactured by Rolex is kind of like buying a modern Joss in relation to a modern Schon cue. The price is a little high but not unobtainable for those who want something a little better, and sometimes they produce an expensive and brilliant watch. A Seiko is like.....a Predator Sneaky. It's going to be solidly constructed and keep good time. You can beat it up and not worry about it and always count on it to perform. Also, like a Predator a "Grand Seiko" can be superior to and more expensive than you're favorite swiss made watch. But the companie's bread and butter are their affordable watches.

To true "watch snobs" Rolex is a quite common and ordinary watch, but these are multi-millionaires buying 1 of 1 Patek Phillipes that are six figures and higher.

What's wrong with being a cue snob, or enjoying purchasing an item that is hand-made and of extremely high quality? You sound like you're jealous. I'm not a cue collector...I play with a Predator - but I have friends who love collecting cues and the art of "collecting" and I don't hate them for it. I collected for a while, but never got the thrill from it that true collectors get. If it isn't being used, well, I don't see the sense in having it - but that is just my opinion. I don't fault others for their own personal values or opinions. Why are you?
 
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For humans the drive to create things which have no real use has been with us since the dawn of humanity. A pool cue is a useful implement as it's the best tool we have to make the balls do what we want. Decorating them is pure vanity. But decorating tools and making beautiful objects that are desirable is part of what makes us human.

Jealously and envy are also human traits. Desiring beautiful things live in all of us. And nothing is stronger than to desire that which is out of reach.

At it's essence that is what drives people to collect and what drives others to create. The artist desires fame and fortune the collector desires admiration.

There is no more sense to tell people what they can and cannot do with their money than there is to tell them to simply stop breathing. If you only make $20k a year then you don't want someone telling you how much you are allowed to spend on a cue, be it $100 or $1000. So don't sweat someone else who has the money to spend 10k on a cue if they feel like it.

And if someone wants to ask 3k for a Dufferin Sneaky Pete then so what? You all can talk about whether the price is right or fair or whatever because that's human nature as well to work out the value of stuff. The entire point being that it's all a shell game with "value" going up or down depending on desire and ability to act on that desire.

There is no right or wrong. There is no other reason why a Picasso that could not sell for $20 when it was painted is worth 20 million now. Or why a $75 Balabushka is worth $20k now. Simply put people want it and the less there is the more it costs.

I also don't agree that collecting is the same as hoarding. Collecting is a carefully curated private museum that preserves the art and history of a subject. It's a treasure hunt of sorts or a journey. It's also not something that only rich people do. I have known people that have put together interesting collections of pool cues and other billiard stuff just through going to pawn shops, flea markets and garage sales.
 
Guys...I agree with alot that has been said...I just find it ironic that Black Boar for instance...its a cue that is touted for its playability, however the starting price point is eight thousand. How many "players", short stop's or semi pro's are going to have the cash for it? Cues are getting fancier everyday, and are pretty to look at, but playability is what I want the most. The way things are going now only the collectors are the ones that can afford these cues, and very few collectors can string 1 rack together:) Makes me regret my youthful indiscretions as I personally have owned 6 BB, but this was when the price break was aroound 1500...oh how i wish I had kept them!
 
JonTravisTaylor said:
Guys...I agree with alot that has been said...I just find it ironic that Black Boar for instance...its a cue that is touted for its playability, however the starting price point is eight thousand. How many "players", short stop's or semi pro's are going to have the cash for it? Cues are getting fancier everyday, and are pretty to look at, but playability is what I want the most. The way things are going now only the collectors are the ones that can afford these cues, and very few collectors can string 1 rack together:) Makes me regret my youthful indiscretions as I personally have owned 6 BB, but this was when the price break was aroound 1500...oh how i wish I had kept them!
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Well, that's the way Tony wants it to be. He could offer $500 Black Boar cues if he wanted to. He did 20 years ago.

Luckily though there are plenty of other cue makers out there who build high quality cues that play as good or better in some people's opinion for much lower prices. In every field there are classes of skill, art, and price. And along with it come endless argument about who deserves to be in which class and why. Why is so and so getting x-prices when so-and-so's stuff is as good and can't get anywhere close to those prices.......on and on and on........

HIndsight is 20/20 - in 1997 I was in Kissimmee FL and a guy offered me a BB for $400. I didn't want to buy it but I took the opportunity to make a quick $100. I got on the mic and said I had a 4pt BB for sale for $500 to the first person who got to me with 5 bills. It was sold in less than one minute. I certainly never thought it would be a $2000 cue today.

I also turned down a Palmer with the inlaid shafts for $1200. Now it's $5000ish.

Life is just a big journey. Tony, Bill Schick, and others have paid their dues. Barry Szamboti has a heavy legacy to uphold. These guys had to work hard to get to where they are and enjoy the fact that their cues are able to command the prices they charge and they have waiting lists.

When they are gone then a lot of the guys paying their dues now will come into their own and the cycle will repeat itself.
 
Matt_24 said:
Owning a Rolex for those who love watches has NOTHING to do with keeping the time. A Timex Ironman will keep better time than a Rolex. A Rolex lover buys a Rolex for the history associated with the brand. Rolex's marketing is superior to any other watch in the history of watches. It's designs are fantastic as well, it has a variety of beautifully made in-house movements (although not always) although Rolex has been known for some "cue design theft" as well. They're most popular design, the Submariner, was actually borrowed/altered for a Blancpain 50 Fathoms. Well, Rolex improved it (in my opinion) and made that design what it is today.

In the watch collecting world though, Rolex is equivalent to Schon cues. Tudor, which is owned/manufactured by Rolex is kind of like buying a modern Joss in relation to a modern Schon cue. The price is a little high but not unobtainable for those who want something a little better, and sometimes they produce an expensive and brilliant watch. A Seiko is like.....a Predator Sneaky. It's going to be solidly constructed and keep good time. You can beat it up and not worry about it and always count on it to perform. Also, like a Predator a "Grand Seiko" can be superior to and more expensive than you're favorite swiss made watch. But the companie's bread and butter are their affordable watches.

To true "watch snobs" Rolex is a quite common and ordinary watch, but these are multi-millionaires buying 1 of 1 Patek Phillipes that are six figures and higher.

What's wrong with being a cue snob, or enjoying purchasing an item that is hand-made and of extremely high quality? You sound like you're jealous. I'm not a cue collector...I play with a Predator - but I have friends who love collecting cues and the art of "collecting" and I don't hate them for it. I collected for a while, but never got the thrill from it that true collectors get. If it isn't being used, well, I don't see the sense in having it - but that is just my opinion. I don't fault others for their own personal values or opinions. Why are you?
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i guess you only read a small part of my back and forth as i said i dont have any problem with anyone that wants to own or play with a cue no matter how expensive it may be, but for me its about playability. All i stated was that i would rather have my Jacoby which was made to my specifibations to any off the shelf custom cue made to cue makers specs. As i also stated i have owned a few high end customs over the years and sold them. It takes a while for a person to determine what exactly is just right for them in a cue but once they do they can have a cue built by any competent cue maker willing to take the time with them to get it right and have their best playing cue. If you offered a Blackboar trade even up for my Jacoby and i had to keep it as a player and not sell it to habe another one built to my specs i would refuse. No hate if you have a Blackboar and it plays great for you im not jelous im happy for you but few customs if any off the shelf are built the way i would want. For one thing i like a player in about 17 and 1/2 ounce range not many built like that as a spec for general sale. I have no hate for any cue or player just my own personal preferences and they wont be found on a premade cue from anyone.
 
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JonTravisTaylor said:
How can cue prices be justified? In todays economy you would think pricing would go down or at least stabalize...is a 6 point BB with no inlays really worth 8k?? Or a dufferin bought from Walmart, then given to Searing for a "conversion" price...2500.00?? REALLY? I just don't get it. Don't get me wrong I have had some expensive cues, and sure some play great and look very nice, but some of the prices I am seeing seem a bit skewed. If you spend 6k and get the cue straight from the cue maker, should you ever be able to feel the rings?? I don't think so! Anyway...feel free to share some stories, both good and bad about pricing and quality...;)
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A willing buyer and a willing seller.
Beyond that, although interesting for discussion, no one business what one person wants to spend on things they want.
 
Hungarian Nut said:
Jon,
How dare you come on here and mention anything about prices. Don't you know to keep you mouth shut about this? There may be some sucker come on here and actually pay the asking price. Please openly apologize in this thread.
Regards,
Mark
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Dude.....let me make this as perfectly clear as I can for you, so maybe you will begin to comprehend it.......IT'S THE RULES!!! If you don't like it....move along. It is NOT up to everyone here to watch everyone else's backside. Many of us do, as a courtesy, but it is not required. If you are unsure about a pricing...PM one of any number of members here that likely collect the same makers' cues, and they will give you the info you desire...but it does not happen within an active W/FS thread......PERIOD!!

Now, if you have an issue with the pricing of an item....take it to PM's...otherwise, quit b*tchin' about the rules!!!

Lisa
 
JonTravisTaylor said:
How can cue prices be justified? In todays economy you would think pricing would go down or at least stabalize...is a 6 point BB with no inlays really worth 8k?? Or a dufferin bought from Walmart, then given to Searing for a "conversion" price...2500.00?? REALLY? I just don't get it. Don't get me wrong I have had some expensive cues, and sure some play great and look very nice, but some of the prices I am seeing seem a bit skewed. If you spend 6k and get the cue straight from the cue maker, should you ever be able to feel the rings?? I don't think so! Anyway...feel free to share some stories, both good and bad about pricing and quality...;)
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Okay....it really does not matter how much you spend on a cue....high-end or low....if there are metal rings in the cue, the odds are pretty good that as the temps and humidity change, so will your ability to feel or not feel the rings. Wood expands and contracts...leaving the rings slightly more exposed at times. I would venture to guess that there are some Bushkas out there worth more than a BB that at times the rings can be felt on.

Lisa
 
ridewiththewind said:
dude.....let me make this as perfectly clear as i can for you, so maybe you will begin to comprehend it.......it's the rules!!! if you don't like it....move along. It is not up to everyone here to watch everyone else's backside. Many of us do, as a courtesy, but it is not required. If you are unsure about a pricing...pm one of any number of members here that likely collect the same makers' cues, and they will give you the info you desire...but it does not happen within an active w/fs thread......period!!

Now, if you have an issue with the pricing of an item....take it to pm's...otherwise, quit b*tchin' about the rules!!!

Lisa
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you tellum girl !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Hungarian Nut said:
Jon,
How dare you come on here and mention anything about prices. Don't you know to keep you mouth shut about this? There may be some sucker come on here and actually pay the asking price. Please openly apologize in this thread.
Regards,
Mark
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As I am sure all of you know I am new to this site. I did not and do not mean any offense or rule infractions that I may have done. My OP was simply to get a discussion started on the state of cues and the pricing therein. While my use of an actual cue from this site was, in hind site, in poor taste, I meant no offense. I have been away from the billiards game for a while and was just suprised at some of the pricing I was seeing...
 
JonTravisTaylor said:
As I am sure all of you know I am new to this site. I did not and do not mean any offense or rule infractions that I may have done. My OP was simply to get a discussion started on the state of cues and the pricing therein. While my use of an actual cue from this site was, in hind site, in poor taste, I meant no offense. I have been away from the billiards game for a while and was just suprised at some of the pricing I was seeing...
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Hungarian was being a smarta$$. My comment that I made with his quote was directed towards him. He was attempting to derail the thread. Carry on. :smile:
 
ridewiththewind said:
Dude.....let me make this as perfectly clear as I can for you, so maybe you will begin to comprehend it.......IT'S THE RULES!!! If you don't like it....move along. It is NOT up to everyone here to watch everyone else's backside. Many of us do, as a courtesy, but it is not required. If you are unsure about a pricing...PM one of any number of members here that likely collect the same makers' cues, and they will give you the info you desire...but it does not happen within an active W/FS thread......PERIOD!!

Now, if you have an issue with the pricing of an item....take it to PM's...otherwise, quit b*tchin' about the rules!!!

Lisa
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Dearest Lisa,

This is in the Main Forum. The question was Cues vs Economy. I was giving my opinion. You are not in charge. I was being sarcastic. You didn't get it. You normally don't get it. I own high end cues.

Carry on.

Cheers,
Mark
 
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