CueTec or House Cue?

[John Barton]

I will probably write a book one day on this subject. Gus Szamboti, Jerry Franklin, and Burton Spain would not have wasted their time responding to your idiotic question.

The bottom line is that if you honestly feel in your heart that CueTec makes a "quality" cue, there is nothing I (or anyone else) can do to change you mind. However, should you ever decide to be honest with yourself and others, then you will have come a long way in this journey we call life.

Good luck on your journey.............

Actually, Jerry Franklin did answer the question for me. And a lot of other cuemakers as well. Remember the bet on our pool resumes that you ducked?

I know what my quality scale is for cues. I use it every day when I sell cues. I long ago put away ignorant and misguided prejudices about quality in cue sticks. I lost this snobbery once I started learning all about cues and players all the way from the manufacturer that puts out a million cues a month (no exaggeration) to the guy who puts out 12 cues a year, and from the players who love pool and can't hit the end rail to the ones who never miss.

Perhaps it is you Greg who needs to be honest. All you need to do is admit that in the parameters of what makes a pool cue into an instrument to play high level pool with, a Cuetec fits those parameters. Now, it might be at the lowest end of the spectrum there but it's there on that scale just as surely as a Szamboti is there. And to me, you can't call a cue trash if you can run racks with it. Trash is worthless. A ramin wood cue that is impossible to draw a ball with is trash. A cue with an 11mm screw on tip that can barely move the cueball is trash. A Cuetec with which you can perform all the required tasks is not.

It may be undesirable. It may not feel as good as other cues. It might not hold up as well but those things don't make it trash.

So, it's your problem if you let your prejudices get in the way. For me, I have owned, played with, dealt in, and been to most of the cues and shops of cuemakers you revere.

So I would say that based on every thing you have written here that you are still on the journey. I will be waiting for you at the end.

 

[watchez]

I lost this snobbery once I started learning all about cues and players all the way from the manufacturer that puts out a million cues a month (no exaggeration) to the guy who puts out 12 cues a year, and from the players who love pool and can't hit the end rail to the ones who never miss.

And people think that pool is dying??

 

[John Barton]

If people knew of the true volume of cues that move in this country they would astonished. We at AZ are insulated from this. Wal Mart sells hundreds of thousands of cues a year.

How many of you have seen the Marlboro cue that Marlboro had as part of their product giveaways a few years ago? Those were decent cues. You know how many of them were made?

500,000. That's right, there are 500,000 Marlboro branded cues in the world.

Anyone have any idea how many cues run through Sports Authority/Gart Bros/Kmart/Walmart/Sears each year?

Harvard Sports might be the largest billiard brand in the world in terms of actual reach.

When I walk through the factory I am constantly amazed at the sheer volume of cues in process.

Pool isn't dying. It's just another thing people do. Some more than others. And like everything else it has its complete novices and its fanatics.

I am sure if I went on an RC Car forum and asked if a Tyco 4x4 was any good I'd get a bunch of people who would denounce it in favor of their high end custom jobs. Then there would be others who would point out the good and bad points. Stereos, kites, you name it, all the same.

 

[Nick B]

...It may be undesirable. It may not feel as good as other cues. It might not hold up as well but those things don't make it trash...

I think you answered your own question. They simply don't pass some accepted minimum standards that most experienced players/users feel are prerequisites for their equipment.

In the early 80's Chrysler bet the farm and released the K-Car. Lee Iaccoca said on national television that he hated the car. Mat-Tack simulated wood finish and all. They did the market research and decided the financial sweet-spot of the marketplace and built something in that price point. This vehicle is largely the catalyst to bring Chrysler back from the brink of destruction.

They sold hundred of thousands of units and it was voted car of the year by some automotive journalists. Now 20 plus years have passed does anyone here think this was a good car?

Cuetec is built on largely the same principles. Fit a market-space. If they made a $800.00 full spliced cue that rivaled Schon (insert brand of choice here) on all measurable criteria would anyone buy it? I think not.

Nick

 

[John Barton]

...It may be undesirable. It may not feel as good as other cues. It might not hold up as well but those things don't make it trash...QUOTE]

I think you answered your own question. They simply don't pass some accepted minimum standards that most experienced players/users feel are prerequisites for their equipment.

In the early 80's Chrysler bet the farm and released the K-Car. Lee Iaccoca said on national television that he hated the car. Mat-Tack simulated wood finish and all. The did the market research and decided the financial sweet-spot of the marketplace and built something in that price point. This vehicle is largely the catalyst to bring Chrysler back from the brink of destruction.

They sold hundred of thousands of units and it was voted car of the year by some automotive journalists. Now 20 plus years have passed does anyone here think this was a good car?

Cuetec is built on largely the same principles. Fit a market-space. If they made a $800.00 full spliced cue that rivaled Schon (insert brand of choice here) on all measurable criteria would anyone buy it? I think not.

Nick

No, in fact they DO pass acceptable minimum standards for performance. That's the whole enchilada right there.

How can you possibly argue that when a guy like Troy Frank wins the Derby City nine ball event with a Cuetec that the cue's performance is in doubt? At that moment he couldn't have played any better with any other cue, he won, he was the champion, he made the money ball more times than anyone else in the tournament.

Heres what I think. If Predator were to come out with a cue that used EXACTLY the same construction techniques as a Cuetec but they didn't say that they did then they would and could sell them for $800 easily. I have no doubt that a lot of Cuetec detractors would hail Predator for their innovation. If Predator actually managed to get the "hit" right, then they would sell thousands at prices Cuetec could only dream of.

As for the K-car, I am sure that there are plenty of people who think that it was a good car for the money, passed the minimum requirement of providing transportation from point A to B and didn't bust their bank account. Does anyone hold it up as a classic for the ages? No, of course not, and Cuetec is also not destined for that designation. However, 17 years later Cuetec is still going strong. And their brands are still being used by champions who are winning with them.

 

[Nick B]

Come on John...your just looking for a argument. For a change why don't your read anything anyone posts before responding. My point was they fill a curtain market-space. Period full stop. Not a Cuetec bash. BMW and MB could build cheap people movers but that could possibly confuse their customer base. Brand marketing is a complex thing. Levis are always fashionable but they never command $200.00 a copy. A pair Jordache's used to go for that much and more. Now they are a Trivial Pursuit anecdote.

Fong-Pang Chao won his world championship with a Gina. Efren could win it with a broom stick. Neither end of the spectrum is wrong or right.

Nick

 

[John Barton]

Come on John...your just looking for a argument. For a change why don't your read anything anyone posts before responding. My point was they fill a curtain market-space. Period full stop. Not a Cuetec bash. BMW and MB could build cheap people movers but that could possibly confuse their customer base. Brand marketing is a complex thing. Levis are always fashionable but they never command $200.00 a copy. A pair Jordache's used to go for that much and more. Now they are a Trivial Pursuit anecdote.

Fong-Pang Chao won his world championship with a Gina. Efren could win it with a broom stick. Neither end of the spectrum is wrong or right.

Nick

I spoke directly to each point you made. Now I will do it again.

There is not a price point that Cuetec is in that there are not "traditional" cues already in that space and more of them. Cuetec's niche in the market is durability. The marketing is based primarily on that. The price is a reflection of cost. If Cuetec could sell the cues for less and maintain margins then they would, because they would sell more of them.

I am not sure why you are making a branding issue out of this but that aspect of the discussion has been covered.

You said and I quote, "They simply don't pass some accepted minimum standards that most experienced players/users feel are prerequisites for their equipment."

I said, they do in fact pass the minimum standards. But I will concede that using the qualification of "experienced" players you are probably right that Cuetec doesn't meet the standards of hit, balance, feel, and comfort that are found on higher end or traditionally made cues given the choice of cues to play with. However, I still maintain that many players CAN play high level pool with Cuetecs and I think the evidence shows it clearly by the amount of people who have posted their experiences of doing just that.

And I am tired of hearing the line that so-and-so can beat everyone with a broomstick. As much as I love Efren he can't win with a broomstick. It doesn't meet the basic requirements needed in a pool playing instrument to allow him to play at a high level. He can however LOSE to another professional who is playing with a Cuetec, both sponsored and unsponsored.

You said, "Neither end of the spectrum is wrong or right."

And I agree. Now tell Greg that and we can all get along.

 

[Nick B]

I spoke directly to each point you made. Now I will do it again.

There is not a price point that Cuetec is in that there are not "traditional" cues already in that space and more of them. Cuetec's niche in the market is durability. The marketing is based primarily on that. The price is a reflection of cost. If Cuetec could sell the cues for less and maintain margins then they would, because they would sell more of them.

Well if it's durability they are after they are misplacing their promotional dollars. Earl is a better spokesperson than AF. We all know he's harder on his gear.

I've been around a while either I'm dense or I'm not getting their durability message.

The Broomstick part was of coarse a far fetched example.

Nick

 

[John Barton]

Well if it's durability they are after they are misplacing their promotional dollars. Earl is a better spokesperson than AF. We all know he's harder on his gear.

I've been around a while either I'm dense or I'm not getting their durability message.

The Broomstick part was of coarse a far fetched example.

Nick

I didn't say indestructibility

You aren't getting their message because you are not part of their demographic. Cuetec's target audience is the beginning to intermediate player. Those are the folks who are looking for cues and are undecided on what to get. To them a composite cue that doesn't warp, feels great AND is endorsed by World Champions and is in the right price range is an unbeatable combination.

Those people get Cuetec's message loud and clear. We sell so many Cuetec's that it's unreal. And we don't get many complaints on them either.

I'd say that most of the folks at AZ have grown out of Cuetec's target market but that there are plenty of them who have a Cuetec or two. And many of them play just fine with their Cuetec's even if they have moved on.

I know a few good players who keep a Cuetec in their car as the spare cue. They get the durability message.

 

[rackem]

I know a few good players who keep a Cuetec in their car as the spare cue. They get the durability message.

[/QUOTE]

Don't believe the Hype. I have seen more than one fiberglass cue that was ruin when left in the trunk in very hot weather. They are not indestructible. Extreme heat is no good.

 

[Slider]

Someone wanted a definition of "Quality". I'll try.

Put a szamboti in the hands of a crappy player and a cuetec in the hands of a good player: The good player will win.

Put a solid wood house cue in the hands of a good player and a cuetec in the hands of a great player: The great player will win.

Give the worst cue to the best player and the best cue to the worst player. Guess what will happen.

It's the indian not the arrow. Anyone who says anything else is selling something.

Fair 'nuff. But, having said all that, you, I and many others who post here are probably interested in other facets of billiards - more so than the typical club banger or beginning bar league player. We're not robotically playing "just another game". We're pool players, dammit, and we love the romance behind this thing. The great players of today and yesterday, the history of the game, the great cues and their makers, present and past, we want to hear about it all, with no details left out.

So, despite the fact that people can play a decent game with a CueTec, for some strange reason many serious players choose not to use them. This doesn't make CueTecs "trash sticks" as a few posters have alluded, however I personally enjoy playing with something that makes me feel like I own a workmanlike tool, handcrafted, with personal attention to detail and a design that will likely not be seen in the hands of too many other players. Something with intrinsic value, and a bit of someones soul in it.

As players, we know the comfortable feel of a warm wooden shaft gliding through a closed bridge, (yes, wood is warmer to the touch than many synthetic materials) and some of us look upon "high-tech" cue materials and other playing gimmicks with a jaundiced eye. Many players will have a lifetime love of the game, and will continue to enjoy it as long as they are physically able. Given that, the cost of a proper cue is negligible when amortized over its useful life. I still regret not picking up one of the very nice $120 Hoppe conversions available in San Francisco in the early 70's. Or two.

Your analogy, while essentially true, misses the point, because it doesn't consider the human side of the question, that is, which cues would the players rather use? Let's discuss this thing we refer to as "quality" from a different angle. Take all of those players in your example, give them the same cues but have them play their matches on a Diamond table, then another identical set of matches on a home rec-room particle board table. I suspect the matches would be able to be played to completion on both tables, and the win/loss results would be similar.

So, since both tables are serviceable, how many people here - given a choice - would patronize a pool room with particle board tables?

How many serious players here would refer to PB tables as "junk", and then, how many would rise to defend them?

The answers are simple and obvious. It's all about quality, dependability, playability, and pride of ownership. I want to invest in a quality, handmade cue, not an imported production cue. When I was younger, I would buy cheap and then have to buy again later, but I found that in the long run, it's better to buy what you really want. I discovered a need to feel that I bought something worthwhile with my money.

Curiously, I don't see too many CueTec playing cues listed in the sigs on this forum. This isn't because they're necessarily trash, but I believe that they are definitely marketed to beginning players who seek something fairly inexpensive yet serviceable - hoping to improve their game. They want something which is "a step up" from house cues. Nothing wrong with that - if it's good for the purchaser - but I think most of us are beyond that point.

Ken

BTW, the handle "FullSpliceFiend" speaks volumes about your taste in cues.

 

[John Barton]

Don't believe the Hype. I have seen more than one fiberglass cue that was ruin when left in the trunk in very hot weather. They are not indestructible. Extreme heat is no good.

I didn't say they are indestructible. I also didn't say that one could subject them to extremes of temperature without harm. I have no idea what the range of enviromental extremes that a Cuetec can withstand without changing the cue's shape are.

I think there more people who leave Cuetecs in their cars without damage to them then there are people whose Cuetecs are damaged that way.

How about we take your favorite wood cue and a Cuetec and put them both in boiling water for 5 minutes and see which is the worse off. Sounds like a fun experiment. Or better yet how about we leave both cues out in the snow for a couple days just to see what happens. I don't know what will happen. I don't know if Cuetec can live up to it's claims or not. I know a lot of people buy them and a lot of people use them successfully. One of my friends leaves his in the car all year round.

 

[predator]

Both of my Z shafts developed ferrule cracks, so I sent them away for repairs. I got used so much to Z shaft euro taper that I find pro taper feel disgusting now. All the players around me have cues with pro taper, so I had no choice but to temporarily switch to house cues.

I had a Cuetec fiberglass as my first cue. What a disappointment that was. If it had a wooden shaft, it would have been just a normal average cue. But with this fiberglass...I don't know who can play with it without a glove.

 

[Flex]

Got ya.....but I think the guy actually ...GASP...wins with the CT.

Heck, any stick is good to beat a dog, or horse, or whatever with

 

[Flex]

I didn't say indestructibility

Those people get Cuetec's message loud and clear. We sell so many Cuetec's that it's unreal. And we don't get many complaints on them either.

I'd say that most of the folks at AZ have grown out of Cuetec's target market but that there are plenty of them who have a Cuetec or two. And many of them play just fine with their Cuetec's even if they have moved on.

I'd be willing to bet that if I put a milk dud tip on one of those flashy, decalled Cuetec cues that I could make the cueball do almost anything I wanted. That being said, the cue would perform, at least adequately, for me. Would I like to play with one? Not particularly, as I don't care for the feel in the grip area, or the fiberglass coating on the shaft, which I would sand down right away, but it would work... But why buy one of those cues and spend anywhere from $125 to $250 for a cue when I can get a very respectable sneaky pete online for $20 plus shipping that will play just fine? By the way, if anybody doubts what I'm saying about this, I'll be happy to meet you at Chris's Billiards in Chicago or the Chicago Billiard Cafe to let you try out my cue with the milk dud tip....

 

[ribdoner]

I didn't say they are indestructible. I also didn't say that one could subject them to extremes of temperature without harm. I have no idea what the range of enviromental extremes that a Cuetec can withstand without changing the cue's shape are.

I think there more people who leave Cuetecs in their cars without damage to them then there are people whose Cuetecs are damaged that way.

How about we take your favorite wood cue and a Cuetec and put them both in boiling water for 5 minutes and see which is the worse off. Sounds like a fun experiment. Or better yet how about we leave both cues out in the snow for a couple days just to see what happens. I don't know what will happen. I don't know if Cuetec can live up to it's claims or not. I know a lot of people buy them and a lot of people use them successfully. One of my friends leaves his in the car all year round.

I will NOT put my SW into a pot of boiling water or store it in snow----the warranty has expired I subjected a CUETEC to these conditions and
the shaft became sticky, rough, etc,--kinda feels like a corn cobb

 

[rossaroni]

I figured I would chime in since I played with both, a house cue and a cuetec, in the past couple days. I was at a small bar on Saturday and played a few games with a typical house cue. The next day, I played leagues at a place that has cuetec house cues. I know these may be a little different then the normal two piece cuetecs, but i figured they are close enough. I do have some nice cues, but I used the cuetec, because they have red felt, therefore red chalk. I don't feel like cleaning my shaft of the red tint after playing for a sort time, so I played with one of the cuetec house cues.
I would much rather play with a wood house cue then a cuetec. The main reason is the same reason I believe most people dislike cuetecs. The shaft is just too sticky. It is hard to stroke a ball. I used an open bridge on almost every shot. I don't feel like getting blisters on my hands from there shafts. I just never really understood why a cue company would make a shaft that is always sticky and hard to stroke. You could use a glove, but that is another story in itself. I actually like the way some of the wood house cues play. I am not saying that cuetecs are the worst thing out there, I just happen to not really like them. The way they make a laminated shaft, is like if a golf company made clubs with a head the size on a quarter. Tiger might be able to do ok with them, but does that mean that they are great. Of course they may sell some because he uses them, the same way cuetecs may sell because Earl and Allison play with one. If someone likes cuetecs, that is great for them. I don't think someone can tell someone else that there choice in a cue is bad, but for me, I would rather play with a wood house cue, the same way I would rather play with my cues then a house cue.