Curing Elbow Drop

nobcitypool

nobcitypool

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This isn't another thread to debate whether elbow drop is a good or bad thing. I happen to think it is a very bad thing. Unfortunately, I seem to easily drop into a mode where my elbow does drop during the stroke. I have video taped my stroke many times. From doing so, I know it is hard to feel that you're doing it and it is hard to isolate your upper arm and the correct muscles to keep it perfectly still.

For those who may have fought a similar problem, what did you do to get rid of the elbow drop?
 
nobcitypool said:
This isn't another thread to debate whether elbow drop is a good or bad thing. I happen to think it is a very bad thing. Unfortunately, I seem to easily drop into a mode where my elbow does drop during the stroke. I have video taped my stroke many times. From doing so, I know it is hard to feel that you're doing it and it is hard to isolate your upper arm and the correct muscles to keep it perfectly still.

For those who may have fought a similar problem, what did you do to get rid of the elbow drop?
Click to expand...


Elbow drop is a natural thing that happens when you hit the cue ball and allow the stick to continue to the end of stroke.

The elbow follows its not something that you make happen.....it just happens.

When doing your aiming strokes the action is from the elbow down.....when you hit the cue ball the elbow will drop due to hitting the cue ball. The stick will keep moving forward, this is not a forced follow thru.

Dont worry about it. Get Lee Brett's DVD "The Secret Art of Pool" and do exactly as he teaches

Have fun

John
 
nobcitypool said:
This isn't another thread to debate whether elbow drop is a good or bad thing. I happen to think it is a very bad thing. Unfortunately, I seem to easily drop into a mode where my elbow does drop during the stroke. I have video taped my stroke many times. From doing so, I know it is hard to feel that you're doing it and it is hard to isolate your upper arm and the correct muscles to keep it perfectly still.

For those who may have fought a similar problem, what did you do to get rid of the elbow drop?
Click to expand...

nobcitypool:

While the answers you're inevitably going to get, to the effect of "elbow drop is not a bad thing! Don't worry about it!" are correct to a point, they obviously will not help you in your endeavor to get rid of elbow drop. It still bothers you, right?

Put it this way, if something bothers you, no amount of convincing otherwise will fix the situation, and you're still stuck in your quest to resolve it.

So here's how *I* got rid of my elbow drop: Quit the fixation that the cue must travel in an absolutely piston-like fashion! That is, you can't have a perfect pendulum stroke, *and* have the cue travel in an absolutely piston-like fashion.

Here are the particulars:
  • A pinned elbow will cause a natural (and simple!) pendulum motion of the grip hand, as it travels in an arc.
  • This arc transfers to the cue, and the handle of the cue (or wherever you're gripping it) will bounce up and down as it follows the arc.
  • And, the tip of your cue follows in opposite fashion:
    1. As the handle rises (such as when being pulled back), the tip falls (or "dives") sightly to the cloth;
    2. As the handle lowers (as your grip hand reaches the perihelion of the arc, or the "Set" position), the tip rises.
    3. Then finally, when you deliver the cue through the cue ball to the "Finish" position, the handle rises as your grip hand meets your chest, and the tip takes its final dive to the cloth.
So quit being fixated with the notion of "the cue must travel like a piston or a solenoid" (which, subconsciously, forces your elbow to drop to effect this kind of motion!). Focus on pinning that elbow, and let the cue do what it wants to do.

The SPF instructors teach "rock the cradle." That cradle is your grip hand, and its pivot point (for it to rock back and forth) is the elbow. Focus on rocking that cradle back and forth.

The point at where the cradle is at its lowest (closest to the ground) is called the Set position. This is where your cue tip just about meets the cue ball -- maybe a 1/4-inch away from the cue ball. So when you are taking your warm-up strokes, you are rocking the cradle one-half of the way as your tip almost meets the cue ball. Then, when you deliver the cue, you pull the cradle back smoothly, and let it swing (from the elbow!) through the cue ball, to the final Finish position. Let the cue tip dive to the cloth naturally.

Practice that for a bit, and you'll find how the pendulum stroke should feel. And, you'll notice the elbow drop is finally GONE!

Hope this helps,
-Sean

P.S.: Lee Brett's "The Secret Art of Pool" is a FANTASTIC DVD!! This DVD covers more than just stroke; it's chock full of good stuff on how to approach the table, how to survey the table, how to improve your mental game, etc. You can view the elbow drop stuff with a grain of salt if you like, but the rest of the DVD is fantastic.
 
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nobcitypool said:
This isn't another thread to debate whether elbow drop is a good or bad thing. I happen to think it is a very bad thing. Unfortunately, I seem to easily drop into a mode where my elbow does drop during the stroke. I have video taped my stroke many times. From doing so, I know it is hard to feel that you're doing it and it is hard to isolate your upper arm and the correct muscles to keep it perfectly still.

For those who may have fought a similar problem, what did you do to get rid of the elbow drop?
Click to expand...

Pros drop their elbow. However to avoid debate, have you isolated your elbow drop as the main source of your problem and not something else? Maybe you have a hook or maybe you're not addressing the cueball where you think you are.
 
Hang a rope from the ceiling that goes under your elbow. I saw a video of the Oyster doing that with students (not a joke).

<=== Likes to drop elbow
 
One Pocket John said:
Elbow drop is a natural thing that happens when you hit the cue ball and allow the stick to continue to the end of stroke.

The elbow follows its not something that you make happen.....it just happens.

When doing your aiming strokes the action is from the elbow down.....when you hit the cue ball the elbow will drop due to hitting the cue ball. The stick will keep moving forward, this is not a forced follow thru.

Dont worry about it. Get Lee Brett's DVD "The Secret Art of Pool" and do exactly as he teaches

Have fun

John
Click to expand...

sfleinen said:
nobcitypool:

While the answers you're inevitably going to get, to the effect of "elbow drop is not a bad thing! Don't worry about it!" are correct to a point, they obviously will not help you in your endeavor to get rid of elbow drop. It still bothers you, right?

Put it this way, if something bothers you, no amount of convincing otherwise will fix the situation, and you're still stuck in your quest to resolve it.

So here's how *I* got rid of my elbow drop: Quit the fixation that the cue must travel in an absolutely piston-like fashion! That is, you can't have a perfect pendulum stroke, *and* have the cue travel in an absolutely piston-like fashion.

Here are the particulars:
  • A pinned elbow will cause a natural (and simple!) pendulum motion of the grip hand, as it travels in an arc.
  • This arc transfers to the cue, and the handle of the cue (or wherever you're gripping it) will bounce up and down as it follows the arc.
  • And, the tip of your cue follows in opposite fashion:
    1. As the handle rises (such as when being pulled back), the tip falls (or "dives") sightly to the cloth;
    2. As the handle lowers (as your grip hand reaches the perihelion of the arc, or the "Set" position), the tip rises.
    3. Then finally, when you deliver the cue through the cue ball to the "Finish" position, the handle rises as your grip hand meets your chest, and the tip takes its final dive to the cloth.
So quit being fixated with the notion of "the cue must travel like a piston or a solenoid" (which, subconsciously, forces your elbow to drop to effect this kind of motion!). Focus on pinning that elbow, and let the cue do what it wants to do.

The SPF instructors teach "rock the cradle." That cradle is your grip hand, and its pivot point (for it to rock back and forth) is the elbow. Focus on rocking that cradle back and forth.

The point at where the cradle is at its lowest (closest to the ground) is called the Set position. This is where your cue tip just about meets the cue ball -- maybe a 1/4-inch away from the cue ball. So when you are taking your warm-up strokes, you are rocking the cradle one-half of the way as your tip almost meets the cue ball. Then, when you deliver the cue, you pull the cradle back smoothly, and let it swing (from the elbow!) through the cue ball, to the final Finish position. Let the cue tip dive to the cloth naturally.

Practice that for a bit, and you'll find how the pendulum stroke should feel. And, you'll notice the elbow drop is finally GONE!

Hope this helps,
-Sean

P.S.: Lee Brett's "The Secret Art of Pool" is a FANTASTIC DVD!! This DVD covers more than just stroke; it's chock full of good stuff on how to approach the table, how to survey the table, how to improve your mental game, etc. You can view the elbow drop stuff with a grain of salt if you like, but the rest of the DVD is fantastic.
Click to expand...


Yeah buy Lee's DVD and do what he says :) thanks John, and thanks Sean glad you like it...
 
many snooker coaches advice to drop your elbow during the backstroke in order to keep the cue level.
 
Slh said:
many snooker coaches advice to drop your elbow during the backstroke in order to keep the cue level.
Click to expand...

True. I have yet to see a top snooker guy play with the cue motion rising and falling, fully pinned elbow, i.e. pendulum arc etc. Not saying that it would not be possible, but they use this type of technique for a good reason.

For pool it probably doesn't matter, especially on club and amateur level. Having said that, Brits that do play pool on a top level (Appleton, Melling...etc) do not allow their cue to rise on a backstroke. I believe this does give them slight accuracy advantage compared to other pro pool players. And at that level just a slight, very slight advantage at ball pocketing could mean the difference between US Open victory or say 4th round exit.
 
nobcitypool said:
This isn't another thread to debate whether elbow drop is a good or bad thing. I happen to think it is a very bad thing. Unfortunately, I seem to easily drop into a mode where my elbow does drop during the stroke. I have video taped my stroke many times. From doing so, I know it is hard to feel that you're doing it and it is hard to isolate your upper arm and the correct muscles to keep it perfectly still.

For those who may have fought a similar problem, what did you do to get rid of the elbow drop?
Click to expand...



Back to the original question: "what did you do to get rid of the elbow drop"

ANSWER: Find a place on your Peck muscle where your swing hand finishes naturally with no elbow drop. (Like an upside down salute) This position is called HOME. Now just practice taking your hand HOME on every shot. SPF Instructors know this position very well.

Posters who "argue" the elbow drop usually don't have all the info needed to debate.

randyg
 
I use the buddy hall cue guide trainer to help my stroke. It is essentially a clear plastic tube with adjustable feet that you practice stroking into. If you drop your elbow you will lift it off the table it also helps to keep you stroking in a straight line. They can be had cheap through sites like seyberts.

Years ago before these stroke trainers the local pro would modify a coke bottle and set it on the table for you to practice with. Ah the good old days.
 
randyg said:
Back to the original question: "what did you do to get rid of the elbow drop"

ANSWER: Find a place on your Peck muscle where your swing hand finishes naturally with no elbow drop. (Like an upside down salute) This position is called HOME. Now just practice taking your hand HOME on every shot. SPF Instructors know this position very well.

Posters who "argue" the elbow drop usually don't have all the info needed to debate.
randyg
Click to expand...

Randy, them's fighten' words!! But nevertheless, a fixed elbow has it's benefits when needed, so I think everyone should learn how to do it so they can draw on that resource when needed.

For the OP: In addition to Randy's suggestion you can also focus on the bottom half of your arm hitting against the top half of your arm. That won't happen if you drop your elbow during your stroke.
 
sfleinen said:
nobcitypool:

While the answers you're inevitably going to get, to the effect of "elbow drop is not a bad thing! Don't worry about it!" are correct to a point, they obviously will not help you in your endeavor to get rid of elbow drop. It still bothers you, right?

Put it this way, if something bothers you, no amount of convincing otherwise will fix the situation, and you're still stuck in your quest to resolve it.

So here's how *I* got rid of my elbow drop: Quit the fixation that the cue must travel in an absolutely piston-like fashion! That is, you can't have a perfect pendulum stroke, *and* have the cue travel in an absolutely piston-like fashion.

Here are the particulars:
  • A pinned elbow will cause a natural (and simple!) pendulum motion of the grip hand, as it travels in an arc.
  • This arc transfers to the cue, and the handle of the cue (or wherever you're gripping it) will bounce up and down as it follows the arc.
  • And, the tip of your cue follows in opposite fashion:
    1. As the handle rises (such as when being pulled back), the tip falls (or "dives") sightly to the cloth;
    2. As the handle lowers (as your grip hand reaches the perihelion of the arc, or the "Set" position), the tip rises.
    3. Then finally, when you deliver the cue through the cue ball to the "Finish" position, the handle rises as your grip hand meets your chest, and the tip takes its final dive to the cloth.
So quit being fixated with the notion of "the cue must travel like a piston or a solenoid" (which, subconsciously, forces your elbow to drop to effect this kind of motion!). Focus on pinning that elbow, and let the cue do what it wants to do.

The SPF instructors teach "rock the cradle." That cradle is your grip hand, and its pivot point (for it to rock back and forth) is the elbow. Focus on rocking that cradle back and forth.

The point at where the cradle is at its lowest (closest to the ground) is called the Set position. This is where your cue tip just about meets the cue ball -- maybe a 1/4-inch away from the cue ball. So when you are taking your warm-up strokes, you are rocking the cradle one-half of the way as your tip almost meets the cue ball. Then, when you deliver the cue, you pull the cradle back smoothly, and let it swing (from the elbow!) through the cue ball, to the final Finish position. Let the cue tip dive to the cloth naturally.

Practice that for a bit, and you'll find how the pendulum stroke should feel. And, you'll notice the elbow drop is finally GONE!

Hope this helps,
-Sean

P.S.: Lee Brett's "The Secret Art of Pool" is a FANTASTIC DVD!! This DVD covers more than just stroke; it's chock full of good stuff on how to approach the table, how to survey the table, how to improve your mental game, etc. You can view the elbow drop stuff with a grain of salt if you like, but the rest of the DVD is fantastic.
Click to expand...


I agree.

Also do not become to overly fixed on a completely still elbow rather try to ensure the elbow is fixed prior to hitting the cue ball and minimized after hitting the cue ball. I think powershots people try to over power the cue ball, the elbow drops way early and they have no tip control.

Be willing to let the tip follow a natural path. The key is to have the fore arm perpendicular to the floor at impact this will have the tip moving at its straightest through the ball. If you hit the cue ball very early the tip is going up and forward, if you hit the cue late the tip is going down and forward. Timing is key. With a fixed elbow the cue tip will seek the cloth, I got this tip from Jerry Brieseth who is a premier teacher.

To practice a fixed elbow stroke, get someone to hold the tip end of a cue on your elbow while you swing. This will make you aware when you drop the elbow. Same as a golf club on the head.
 
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Drop

I must say first I am not an instructor but I fixed my elbow drop by moving my stroke hand back on the cue. Sometimes you will see people that either choke up to far or they are too far away from the cueball. Some people would finish their stroke before they even hit the cueball if they don't drop their elbow to complete the stroke. JMHO
 
Some excellent suggestions, thank you all very much! sfleinenen, you made several excellent points that is helping, I like your analogy of rocking the cradle. Coupling that with Randy's suggestion to hit the same spot on my chest in the follow through has things feeling (and looking) better already.

Thank you!
 
Hit a few shots at different speeds allowing your elbow to drop. While you do this, focus on the feeling you are getting from your biceps and from your shoulder. What you are trying to do here is to cultivate an awareness of the sensations you are getting from these two muscle groups.

Then forget about whether or not your elbow is moving - just focus on getting the hit on the cb using only your biceps. (It can help if you think about hitting 'with your elbow' or even 'with your forearm'.)
 
mattb said:
I use the buddy hall cue guide trainer to help my stroke. It is essentially a clear plastic tube with adjustable feet that you practice stroking into. If you drop your elbow you will lift it off the table it also helps to keep you stroking in a straight line. They can be had cheap through sites like seyberts.

Years ago before these stroke trainers the local pro would modify a coke bottle and set it on the table for you to practice with. Ah the good old days.
Click to expand...

The Buddy Hall cue guide trainer (which is an elongated clear plastic tube on a tripod that you stroke the cue tip through), addresses the cue tip accuracy. It doesn't address the elbow drop "directly," but rather indirectly. Like you say, if you have a "bad" elbow drop (i.e. the timing of the elbow drop is bad, causing the tip to rise), this training aid will show that to you. But it won't "address" it.

Tom Simpson's Stroke Groover does, however:

http://seyberts.com/products/Stroke_Groover_Stroke_Trainer-101051-84.html

2575.jpg

2576.jpg

This is the more portable version of the "strap hanging from the ceiling" that another poster mentioned.

-Sean
 
FranCrimi said:
Randy, them's fighten' words!! But nevertheless, a fixed elbow has it's benefits when needed, so I think everyone should learn how to do it so they can draw on that resource when needed.

For the OP: In addition to Randy's suggestion you can also focus on the bottom half of your arm hitting against the top half of your arm. That won't happen if you drop your elbow during your stroke.
Click to expand...

Siz said:
Hit a few shots at different speeds allowing your elbow to drop. While you do this, focus on the feeling you are getting from your biceps and from your shoulder. What you are trying to do here is to cultivate an awareness of the sensations you are getting from these two muscle groups.

Then forget about whether or not your elbow is moving - just focus on getting the hit on the cb using only your biceps. (It can help if you think about hitting 'with your elbow' or even 'with your forearm'.)
Click to expand...

These are great suggestions! Prior to the introduction of any training aids (and in absence of an SPF instructor), I fixed my elbow drop by focusing on the feeling in my right bicep (I'm a right-hander). I thought of my arm as a hinged joint, where the upper arm is hard-mounted, the elbow is the hinge, and the lower arm swings by virtue of the "rubber band" (the bicep muscle) attached between them. I just focus on the feeling of the "rubber band" pulling the lower arm forwards and upwards to meet the upper arm, to its "home" position.

By the way, even though the "home" position is often "mandated" as being the chest, it doesn't necessarily have to be. If you "fold" your arm perfectly upwards (i.e. the bicep is fully contracted so that the elbow is folded until it can go no more), you'll find that your grip hand wants to meet your shoulder, not your chest. The thumb side of your grip hand "just so happens" to be touching your chest.

This effect -- of the grip hand wanting to meet the shoulder, not the chest -- is much more pronounced in the snooker stance (where you are more square-on to the shot line), rather than the standard Lance Perkins pool stance (where your body and hips are angled 45-degrees to the shot line). That is, because of the snooker stance's ability to square the body onto the shot line and align all the joints of the body into the shot line, you'll find (as I do) that your grip hand "homes" to the shoulder, not the chest. The standard [Lance Perkins] pool stance, on the other hand, angles the body 45-degrees over the shot line, so your grip hand will "home" to the chest, which is positioned more over the cue than the snooker stance.

None of these observations are advocating one stance over the other, btw. I'm just pointing this out so that one knows the differences in location where a proper pendulum stroke "homes" on the body between the two stances.

-Sean
 
nobcitypool said:
This isn't another thread to debate whether elbow drop is a good or bad thing. I happen to think it is a very bad thing. Unfortunately, I seem to easily drop into a mode where my elbow does drop during the stroke. I have video taped my stroke many times. From doing so, I know it is hard to feel that you're doing it and it is hard to isolate your upper arm and the correct muscles to keep it perfectly still.

For those who may have fought a similar problem, what did you do to get rid of the elbow drop?
Click to expand...

I have a can-in-the-celing type light above my table, about 2 feet beyond the side cushion. It is one of those lights with the circular scutcheon trim piece.

I took some 1/4" cotton rope (about 3 feet or so) and tied a knot in one end. I pull back the scutcheon and place the knot between it and the ceiling.

Stay with me here....

Then I made an adjustable sling from the rest of the rope so it can go around my bicep/upper arm and have just a little slack* between my arm and the light.

Whenever I want to practice my stroke specifics, I get the rope, put it in the light fixture, place my upper arm in the sling part and set up a shot on the table where the rope is vertical. If I drop my elbow on the shot, the knot pulls free from the light. If it doesn't pull free, I did not drop my elbow.

The feedback is instantaneous.

A little imagination might create a similar way for you to do this. (tape it to the ceiling, instead, etc.)

Jeff Livingston

* The amount of slack in the rope can be adjusted to allow whatever amount of elbow drop is necessary for your stroke. That varies between players, as has been said here on this thread.
 
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