Curious about league rating systems throughout the country

DJ14.1

DJ14.1

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What's the fairest league rating system that you've seen?

I've always thought of it in similar light to college football - nothing works perfectly, but try to get it as close as possible.

Has anyone actually participated in a league where everybody was ranked where they should be, an nobody whines about this player or that player?

You see it constantly in leagues - A team with the same core group of players always managing to do well, make playoffs, get to Vegas with unusual regularity. When this happens, it means the team is playing the system and somebody up top isn't doing their job! If a league is doing their job properly, everybody should basically be batting .500 in the win loss column...that's the point of a weighting system.

I've only seen the mid-Atlantic area....so was just curious if there are leagues out there that actually have it figured out. What solves these common problems, a vigilant leader, a better rating system?

Are there any leagues where they can actually penalize a player for not playing on-the-level?
 
DJ14.1 said:
You see it constantly in leagues - A team with the same core group of players always managing to do well, make playoffs, get to Vegas with unusual regularity. When this happens, it means the team is playing the system and somebody up top isn't doing their job! If a league is doing their job properly, everybody should basically be batting .500 in the win loss column...that's the point of a weighting system.
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Most handicapping systems don't try to completely equalize. They just put a thumb on the scale, making it a bit more likely that a weaker player or team can win.
 
I've heard the Fargo rating system works really well from others on here, no personal experience though. I've been in APA here in the austin Texas area for the last two years and it is pretty much what you described. I just started playing pool from basically scratch two years ago and am close to being a 7/7 only playing one night a week and maybe hitting some balls one other night a week, yet these people who play 2,3 or even 4 nights a week for the last who knows how many years stay as 4s and 5s and even 3s. Boggles my mind how some people don't improve.
 
drv4 said:
I've heard the Fargo rating system works really well from others on here, no personal experience though. I've been in APA here in the austin Texas area for the last two years and it is pretty much what you described. I just started playing pool from basically scratch two years ago and am close to being a 7/7 only playing one night a week and maybe hitting some balls one other night a week, yet these people who play 2,3 or even 4 nights a week for the last who knows how many years stay as 4s and 5s and even 3s. Boggles my mind how some people don't improve.
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I believe it has to do with wanting to learn/get better. I myself was an APA 2 almost 3 years ago when I started. Now I'm a 6/8 and probably be a 7/8 soon. Most 3's and 4's don't practice other then their matches. I play league 1-2 nights a week depending on the session. But I hit balls/practice difficulties in my game 4-5 days a week on top of league. I also try and play tournaments a couple days a month. I can't get my lower players to even do kitchen table drills for 10 minutes a week let alone 3 or 4 hour practice session.

I've been to Vegas in 8ball singles twice in 3 years once as a 5 (went 2 and out) and again as a 6 last year and finished 9th.

Back on subject though. I don't believe there are any fair non sandbagging systems. we have a team that has gone to Vegas 5 out 6 years with almost the same members. I have personally caught the high player coaching over a lower players shoulder (not in a timeout) and throwing up signals across the bar. Such is life and I move on. I get my redemption by trouncing on their 7 when ever we play them.
 
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Gotboost95 said:
I believe it has to do with wanting to learn/get better. I myself was an APA 2 almost 3 years ago when I started. Now I'm a 6/8 and probably be a 7/8 soon. Most 3's and 4's don't practice other then their matches. I play league 1-2 nights a week depending on the session. But I hit balls/practice difficulties in my game 4-5 days a week on top of league. I can't get my lower players to even do kitchen table drills for 10 minutes a week let alone 3 or 4 hour practice session.
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Winner!!!

At seventy, find the younger players in the local league I play in jealous beyond belief. To keep my skills at a high level, I'm at the table at least four nights a week. Not trying to get better. Just trying to stay in stroke. On the other hand, I rarely if ever see the guys who complain about me, practicing. There are only two pool rooms in Rochester. Hard to hide. Much easier to complain than practice.

We have a 2 on our APA 8 ball team. He's been a two for the five years I've played with him. He loves the game. Plays four nights a week. NEVER practices. Doesn't seem to understand when you continue to miss or miss-play a shot, the answer is not to just wait till next time, it's go to a table, set the shot up and practice. Why do I continue to play on a team with him? He's a great guy and fun to be around. Isn't that what the games really about?

Lyn
 
cardiac kid said:
Winner!!!

At seventy, find the younger players in the local league I play in jealous beyond belief. To keep my skills at a high level, I'm at the table at least four nights a week. Not trying to get better. Just trying to stay in stroke. On the other hand, I rarely if ever see the guys who complain about me, practicing. There are only two pool rooms in Rochester. Hard to hide. Much easier to complain than practice.

We have a 2 on our APA 8 ball team. He's been a two for the five years I've played with him. He loves the game. Plays four nights a week. NEVER practices. Doesn't seem to understand when you continue to miss or miss-play a shot, the answer is not to just wait till next time, it's go to a table, set the shot up and practice. Why do I continue to play on a team with him? He's a great guy and fun to be around. Isn't that what the games really about?

Lyn
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I agree 100%. Most of the time I offer teammates the keys the safe also, and they just don't want to learn or put the time in, which is fine....until you have to listen to them complain in the same breath.
 
USAPL, ranked from 30-125, you don't end up with two 7s playing when one is a B and the other is an A, you have an 80 and a 120 which means that it's a fair game. 14 pts for a win, loser gets 1 pt per ball they make.

I also like how they do hill-hill matches, if it's hill-hill, you need to win the game to win, not just reach your point total. If the other guy needs 5 points and you need 1, it does not matter, you both need to win the rack to win, you can't just pocket 1 and quit.

It ends up being fair but a mid-high player playing a lower player that is decent can be in trouble especially if the other player pockets balls during games. A good player may need 7 or more racks to win, while a bad player would only need 3, and due to the points you can get for sinking balls, it will get close fast if you allow your opponent to the table. If the lower player makes balls during the 7 games, he/she may end with enough points to win and never actually win a game, or get enough points where one game won will give them the match. Even then it's good for the players because it makes the better player really focus on the match and not just bunt balls around till they win the game, they have to keep the other player from pocketing balls which is what they would do against an equal opponent. A 50 playing a 100, if the 50 makes 3-4-5 balls a rack during their losses, they can be on the hill without winning a game by the time the 100 is on the hill.

They also don't drop points during a match, you play to your rating. I know the TAP league drops points to shorten the match, a 7 playing a 5 would be a 6-4 race or something which means the lower player gets a proportionally higher handicap when the games are dropped. 7-5 is a 29% handicap while 6-4 is a 33% handicap, so the lower player gains 4% for free.
 
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DJ14.1 said:
What's the fairest league rating system that you've seen?

I've always thought of it in similar light to college football - nothing works perfectly, but try to get it as close as possible.

Has anyone actually participated in a league where everybody was ranked where they should be, an nobody whines about this player or that player?

You see it constantly in leagues - A team with the same core group of players always managing to do well, make playoffs, get to Vegas with unusual regularity. When this happens, it means the team is playing the system and somebody up top isn't doing their job! If a league is doing their job properly, everybody should basically be batting .500 in the win loss column...that's the point of a weighting system.

I've only seen the mid-Atlantic area....so was just curious if there are leagues out there that actually have it figured out. What solves these common problems, a vigilant leader, a better rating system?

Are there any leagues where they can actually penalize a player for not playing on-the-level?
Click to expand...

NAPA is a fair rating system in my opinion.
 
Mark Griffin said:
Lyn,

Randy knows some things that you are not yet aware of.
Patience. And you will like what you learn!!

Mark Griffin
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Hi Mark,

Are you home from Arizona? Hope your recovery is going well. Didn't stop by the office when I was in Vegas last month. Did see Bill Stock at the event. Look forward to seeing you in July.

Best of good health to you.

Lyn
 
So then following up on all of this, what measures do different leagues have to prevent people from hiding their speed and "playing" the system? Some sort of audits? Penalties? Booting people out?

It's not hard to know who's doing it, yet it seems unusually hard to get it fixed for some reason. Do the league managers not care? Or do they not want to put in the effort? Are they being greased? Or are the rules insufficient in some way? You see it all the time in nationals....the sandbagging capital of bar-league pool. How do you stop it and preserve the integrity of the game?
 
I've been playing APA for a little less than a year. I'm a 4/5 and know some players who have been playing for years and are the same rating. They have fun, it's a nite out. One guy said to me this weekend that "he is what he is" (regarding rating) and is content with that. That's fine by me, he's a great guy. I could care less about the APA ratings. Weekly I have my own gauge. A loss is a loss. If I win against an equal or lower rated player, I won. If I win because of the handicap, I'm happy for the team, but I lost. Tournament-wise I guess I'd have to be happy with any win though. It's about playing and getting better for me.
 
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You seem to have a lot of questions - and insinuate that this is an easy problem - because "its not hard to know who's doing it".

Please enlighten us. Every league and every league operator cares. There is no grease involved. It is the nature of the beast. Get involved and see how well you do.

On a bright side. CSI will be sharing some VERY COOL stuff over the next few months - it will enlighten you and others.

In the meantime, have a good day in billiards.

Mark Griffin


g
DJ14.1 said:
So then following up on all of this, what measures do different leagues have to prevent people from hiding their speed and "playing" the system? Some sort of audits? Penalties? Booting people out?

It's not hard to know who's doing it, yet it seems unusually hard to get it fixed for some reason. Do the league managers not care? Or do they not want to put in the effort? Are they being greased? Or are the rules insufficient in some way? You see it all the time in nationals....the sandbagging capital of bar-league pool. How do you stop it and preserve the integrity of the game?
Click to expand...
 
The Fargo system/ Bonde System in Wisconsin is largely equalized, save for a few local pros who are very highly rated locally but not across the state. All in all the rating system is very fair.

I just recently joined the APA again and was a 4 in 8-ball before I went to GB for a year. After two weeks, I've been bumped to a 5 (won 3 games, 2 times, in 7 and 9 innings total). In 9-ball, I started as a 4 (rated as a low A in Wisconsin 9-ball) and I crushed guys. I think the APA system is terrible. You can max out in 8/9ball as a mid level B player.

I've seen TAP and BCA rating systems and they're just like the APA to me.
 
Mark Griffin said:
You seem to have a lot of questions - and insinuate that this is an easy problem - because "its not hard to know who's doing it".

Please enlighten us. Every league and every league operator cares. There is no grease involved. It is the nature of the beast. Get involved and see how well you do.

On a bright side. CSI will be sharing some VERY COOL stuff over the next few months - it will enlighten you and others.

In the meantime, have a good day in billiards.

Mark Griffin


g
Click to expand...


I was asking the questions because I don't know the answers. It's very easy for a strong player to spot when other players are hiding speed, especially if they see them play several times like how the leagues roll over years. Without getting into detail, their results and ranking are not consistent with what they can do on the table....that's the short version.

My experience has been that most league managers (or at least the ones I've had the pleasure to know), tend to be decent players, but not strong enough to recognize it for themselves...which might be part of the reason the problem persists. So they are forced to rely on others for help.
 
It sounds like CSI may be going all in with Fargo, which would be completely awesome. How cool would it be to have a national system like that?
 
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