Cushion responce problem after table rebuild

[WilliamD]

I need some advice on pool table cushion problems after installation.
I replaced the rail rubber on a Gandy Big G table and at the same time

changed the pocket profile to procut tournement dimensions.
Using Tour Edition with a K-66 profile, the cushions were installed as per diagram # 2 (find below)
The cushions were bonded with Titebond II wood glue held in place by wide rubber bands placed every 2-3 inches.
Alignment was set by bolting the rail to the bare table slate,and moving the cushion up or down,as required to conform to a height gauge check in relation to the bare slate along its entire length .
A long staightedge was then employed to check for installation uniformity
A correction for the rubber bands between the rail and slate was included and the outcome checked on the first completed rail after it had dried for 24 hours
The same method was then used on the subsequent rails
To more completly clarify , after the first rail dried the rubber bands were removed and the rail was then bolted to and properly torqued to the bare slate after which the cushion nose height was checked and found to comply with figure #2 ,the nose height being 1-13/32" above the bare slate surface.
After all rails were completed but not covered with cloth they were assembled on the table to proceed with pocket profiling and cushion facings
At this point ,with a used piece of table cloth installed on the slate, rail performance was checked without its cloth cover
They Responded Like Super Balls With the cue ball rocketing around the table !!
Very pleased to this point I moved on to the next step and covered the rails with Electric Blue Tour Edition 30-30 table cloth.
The table was covered as well, employing an initial very high stretch installation after the room had been humidifyed to and stabilized at 70% for 2 days.
The resulting table cloth installation was tested for speed after bringing humidity back to 50% for another 2 day period.
The cloth speed checks out consistently at a speed of 8.0 or better using the timed lag method of return time in seconds to top rail after rebound from foot rail
Now to the problem : After complete assembly the perfomance of the cushion rubber is lethargic with direct perpendicular impacts. Although angle responce is accurate as far as the diamond grid the balls lose close to 50% of their energy after rail impact
No matter how fast a ball is hit to a rail on a perpendicular hit, 3-1/2 is the average rebound between rails.
The cushions act as if the nose height is high but have been doubled checked and found to be correct as far as manufacturers rec.
I am extremely disappointed in the perfomance of the cushions at this point! Have I missed something or done something improperly?
Can the cloth cause the action of the cushion to be reduced that much? The cushions seemed highly over responsive without the cloth installed, but now act like they are covered in peanut butter. The installed cloth tension on the cushions does not seem to be extreme but possibly a little tighter than most I have seen. Is the cloth tension/stretch super critical to proper cushion performance
Any advice on what to do next to liven up this table is welcome













As the result of intensive testing, we recommend the 1-13/32" nose height for optimum play.

 

[Donny Wessels]

what is your cushion height now? how do they sound?

 

[mechanic/player]

Do you still have the old cushions? If so check the dimensions on the old cushions on all 3 sides to see if they match the new ones exactly. I know they are both k66 but there may a difference.

The rails will always react that way with no cloth on them,sometimes even hopping up off the table. Nose height should be 1 7/16, I bet they are just above that at 1 1/2 .

 

[OTLB]

are they upside ddddddddown??

 

[realkingcobra]

I need some advice on pool table cushion problems after installation.
I replaced the rail rubber on a Gandy Big G table and at the same time

changed the pocket profile to procut tournement dimensions.
Using Tour Edition with a K-66 profile, the cushions were installed as per diagram # 2 (find below)
The cushions were bonded with Titebond II wood glue held in place by wide rubber bands placed every 2-3 inches.
Alignment was set by bolting the rail to the bare table slate,and moving the cushion up or down,as required to conform to a height gauge check in relation to the bare slate along its entire length .
A long staightedge was then employed to check for installation uniformity
A correction for the rubber bands between the rail and slate was included and the outcome checked on the first completed rail after it had dried for 24 hours
The same method was then used on the subsequent rails
To more completly clarify , after the first rail dried the rubber bands were removed and the rail was then bolted to and properly torqued to the bare slate after which the cushion nose height was checked and found to comply with figure #2 ,the nose height being 1-13/32" above the bare slate surface.
After all rails were completed but not covered with cloth they were assembled on the table to proceed with pocket profiling and cushion facings
At this point ,with a used piece of table cloth installed on the slate, rail performance was checked without its cloth cover
They Responded Like Super Balls With the cue ball rocketing around the table !!
Very pleased to this point I moved on to the next step and covered the rails with Electric Blue Tour Edition 30-30 table cloth.
The table was covered as well, employing an initial very high stretch installation after the room had been humidifyed to and stabilized at 70% for 2 days.
The resulting table cloth installation was tested for speed after bringing humidity back to 50% for another 2 day period.
The cloth speed checks out consistently at a speed of 8.0 or better using the timed lag method of return time in seconds to top rail after rebound from foot rail
Now to the problem : After complete assembly the perfomance of the cushion rubber is lethargic with direct perpendicular impacts. Although angle responce is accurate as far as the diamond grid the balls lose close to 50% of their energy after rail impact
No matter how fast a ball is hit to a rail on a perpendicular hit, 3-1/2 is the average rebound between rails.
The cushions act as if the nose height is high but have been doubled checked and found to be correct as far as manufacturers rec.
I am extremely disappointed in the perfomance of the cushions at this point! Have I missed something or done something improperly?
Can the cloth cause the action of the cushion to be reduced that much? The cushions seemed highly over responsive without the cloth installed, but now act like they are covered in peanut butter. The installed cloth tension on the cushions does not seem to be extreme but possibly a little tighter than most I have seen. Is the cloth tension/stretch super critical to proper cushion performance
Any advice on what to do next to liven up this table is welcome











View attachment 89477

As the result of intensive testing, we recommend the 1-13/32" nose height for optimum play.

Championship tour edition cushions are to soft, resulting in less rails and distance traveled when testing the speed of the cushions. I've installed them on some GC's as well as Superspeed and Artemis. They are 2 full lenghts of the table short of both Superspeed and Artemis cushions when testing the amount of rebounds and distance on a GC. Superspeed and Artemis both come in at 5 1/4 to 5 1/2 times the length of the table, whereas Tour Edition comes in at 4 1/2 times, same as Accufast cushions.

Glen

PS, What did you do about the sub-rail bevel on the Gandy, as most all Gandy tables have low cushion height because of the bevel being lower, did you correct the bevel, or did you raise the cushions above the height of the sub-rails to get the nose height to the right level?

 

[WilliamD]

what is your cushion height now? how do they sound?

Donny

Thanks for the quick responce!
The last cushion hieght check was done with carbon paper laid against the cushion and polished piece of 4x4 moved along its length on the cloth
surface. The resulting line on the block measured from the bottom comes in at 1-3/8 to 1-7/16 around the table.
Could excessive Titebond glue in the hollow cavity near the subrail possibly be contributing to the subpar performance?
The rails have a slightly above normal noise level at perpendicular impacts
(A very slight thudding sound)

THANKS!
WD

 

[WilliamD]

Do you still have the old cushions? If so check the dimensions on the old cushions on all 3 sides to see if they match the new ones exactly. I know they are both k66 but there may a difference.

The rails will always react that way with no cloth on them,sometimes even hopping up off the table. Nose height should be 1 7/16, I bet they are just above that at 1 1/2 .

Didnt expect so much help so soon! You guys are really appreciated !!

I do have pieces of the old cushions around,and a pre-install inspection showed them NOT to be in 100% conformity with the original cushions.
I was informed on questioning this that some older cushions could indeed compare in this manner. The rec. was as long as installed nose height was correct there would be no issue. In retrospect I think I may have accepted this to quickly!! The cushion required a lowering on the bevel face of about 1/16" to get nose height and playfield dimension to spec.

Thanks!
WD

 

[WilliamD]

are they upside ddddddddown??

Greetings OTLB

How are things going up there in the "Insurance State"
I am an old Conneticut Boy myself. Grew up on the shore in Madison,Clinton and East Haven. Spent many long nights with Dad when I was young in Pool halls all over the State and the northeast. You may have known him.

The cushion profile had a very slight concavity to one side and a convex nature on the other. The name TOUR EDITION appears on the concave side of each cushion. The cushion was installed with this side to the cloth.
I agree that without very close inspection and this branding, these cushions could wind up upside down. I hope that is not the case here.

Thanks!

WD
(Bill Turner The Second)

 

[WilliamD]

Championship tour edition cushions are to soft, resulting in less rails and distance traveled when testing the speed of the cushions. I've installed them on some GC's as well as Superspeed and Artemis. They are 2 full lenghts of the table short of both Superspeed and Artemis cushions when testing the amount of rebounds and distance on a GC. Superspeed and Artemis both come in at 5 1/4 to 5 1/2 times the length of the table, whereas Tour Edition comes in at 4 1/2 times, same as Accufast cushions.

Glen

PS, What did you do about the sub-rail bevel on the Gandy, as most all Gandy tables have low cushion height because of the bevel being lower, did you correct the bevel, or did you raise the cushions above the height of the sub-rails to get the nose height to the right level?

:thumbup:Greetings Glen


I feel you are correct in your comparison of the cushions provided by the various manufacturers. I was concerned about the reported issues with quality control of materials in the SuperSpeeds but have no personal experience with them. In retrospect the additional cost of the Artemis during the project would seem insignifigant when considering the massive labor invetment to complete the table . Artemis is definitly the choice I should have made,and WILL make in any future project. I am afraid that I bought into all the advertising hype. If I could get these cushions to 4 1/2 rails I could live with it. Right now the combination of a free running cloth and the current rail responce makes for very high frustration level when playing on the table.

On the P.S. The cushion required a lowering on the subrail of approx. 1/16 of an inch from flush to obtain the manufacturers rec. 1-13/32 nose height. This placement also brought playfield dimensions to the correct spec. In retrospect,this did trouble me some at the time!


Thanks again!
WD


P.S. Could excess glue in the cushion cavity at the subrail be a factor here?

 

[Bigkahuna]

Rubber

I put these same cushions on my table and am not real happy with them. They do seem to play short and are not real responsive. Like you I felt I was buying a notch above el cheapo and perhaps even high tech with the dual compounds and accurate ball bounce claims. What I have now is a table that I will not practice much banking on.

 

[realkingcobra]

The glue is not the problem, it's the cushions. Without the canvas inlaid into the topside of the cushion to stiffen the cushion for more responsive banks, the cushions bank soft. The canvas acts as a shock absorber if you will, to stiffen the cushions compression when a ball is banked into it so the ball don't depress the cushion as much resulting in a more stiff bank rebound.

Glen

 

[OTLB]

Northern rubber has no canvas and I just set up a nice antique with it, plays awesome. Guess that rubber is the problem maybe more than the lack of canvas but I won't debate Glenn's point.

 

[Donny Wessels]

Donny

Thanks for the quick responce!
The last cushion hieght check was done with carbon paper laid against the cushion and polished piece of 4x4 moved along its length on the cloth
surface. The resulting line on the block measured from the bottom comes in at 1-3/8 to 1-7/16 around the table.
Could excessive Titebond glue in the hollow cavity near the subrail possibly be contributing to the subpar performance?
The rails have a slightly above normal noise level at perpendicular impacts
(A very slight thudding sound)

THANKS!
WD

you might want to make sure you got good adhesion, pinch the rubber and see if it moves. I don't like champiion cushions either. But I did put the same cushions on a Big G about a year ago, It wasn't playing great but definitely got more than 3.5 rails.

 

[Dartman]

Greetings OTLB
... The cushion profile had a very slight concavity to one side and a convex nature on the other. The name TOUR EDITION appears on the concave side of each cushion. The cushion was installed with this side to the cloth.
I agree that without very close inspection and this branding, these cushions could wind up upside down. I hope that is not the case here.
Thanks!
WD
(Bill Turner The Second)

The TE stamp is on the bottom of the cushion which is flat, not concave.
Cushion tops have a slight arch. The bottom is flat.
Look at a cushion side profile and it's rather simple to tell the top from the bottom.

For the sake of argument - is the cloth installed correctly?
What method did you use to determine the top side?

Post a few pics and maybe someone can spot something.

 

[Dartman]

... Now to the problem : After complete assembly the perfomance of the cushion rubber is lethargic with direct perpendicular impacts. Although angle responce is accurate as far as the diamond grid the balls lose close to 50% of their energy after rail impact
...

I put these same cushions on my table and am not real happy with them. They do seem to play short and are not real responsive. Like you I felt I was buying a notch above el cheapo and perhaps even high tech with the dual compounds and accurate ball bounce claims. What I have now is a table that I will not practice much banking on.

What's it going to be?
Angle response correct or incorrect.

I think one of you guys should take Championship up on the advertising ( 800-323-2852 )
with regard to speed and accuracy -

"To insure that Championship's strict testing criteria and tolerances are met, we developed our own American Made tooling. Championship's tooling, "state of the art" manufacturing facility and strict quality control measures assure maximum integrity of formula and proper cure of each and every production run. The result is a line of Billiard Cushions with exacting tolerances required in durometer, dimensional accuracy, rebound, specific gravity elongation and overall performance.

Through formula, quality control and all of the other factors mentioned above, Championship has obviated the need for a canvas control strip across the top of it's billiard cushions. Feel free to contact Championship's Sales Representatives if you would like to discuss why canvas control strips aren't used on our cushions and how more often than not; canvas control strips cause inaccuracies in most of the cushion rubber out on the
market today. "

 

[WilliamD]

you might want to make sure you got good adhesion, pinch the rubber and see if it moves. I don't like champiion cushions either. But I did put the same cushions on a Big G about a year ago, It wasn't playing great but definitely got more than 3.5 rails.

Donny

I will assure you that we did a real torture test in the adhesion quality arena before covering the rails. Those things are ON there to Stay !!


Was the big G you recushioned fitted with K66 profile? I don't have years of experiece in this field but my gut is starting to tell me that this table might possibly have required the k55 profile. With the required lowering of the cushion on the subrail bevel to achieve proper nose height and playing field dimensions this is starting to feel like a real possibility.
All of my research before hand indicated the k66 profile was called for on this application. Is it possible some tables were manufactured with the slightly more robust k55 profile. Even more troubling now was Glens statement about typical low nose height on Gandys (which I believe is true in his experience) while I saw the opposite condition on this table
( high initial nose height ) . I have to admit that I did not check subrail angle before cushion installation and I really should have. Please tell me I have not installed the wrong profile on this table!!

 

[realkingcobra]

Donny

I will assure you that we did a real torture test in the adhesion quality arena before covering the rails. Those things are ON there to Stay !!


Was the big G you recushioned fitted with K66 profile? I don't have years of experiece in this field but my gut is starting to tell me that this table might possibly have required the k55 profile. With the required lowering of the cushion on the subrail bevel to achieve proper nose height and playing field dimensions this is starting to feel like a real possibility.
All of my research before hand indicated the k66 profile was called for on this application. Is it possible some tables were manufactured with the slightly more robust k55 profile. Even more troubling now was Glens statement about typical low nose height on Gandys (which I believe is true in his experience) while I saw the opposite condition on this table
( high initial nose height ) . I have to admit that I did not check subrail angle before cushion installation and I really should have. Please tell me I have not installed the wrong profile on this table!!

Don't worry, K66 is the correct cushions for a Gandy Big G, but that don't mean that someone before you didn't change the cushions a long time ago

 

[WilliamD]

The TE stamp is on the bottom of the cushion which is flat, not concave.
Cushion tops have a slight arch. The bottom is flat.
Look at a cushion side profile and it's rather simple to tell the top from the bottom.

For the sake of argument - is the cloth installed correctly?
What method did you use to determine the top side?

Post a few pics and maybe someone can spot something.

Dartman

Thanks for the responce !
Not to argue the point of course, but just to let you know ,the cushion material I recieved,when checked with a straight edge across the branded face , did not conform to absolutley flat. A small amount of light did indeed pass between straight edge and cushion material. I did refer to this as a "very slight concavity" and stand by my statement.
I consider myself quite attentive to details and even a casual observer could most likley identify which side of Tour Edition 30-30 table cloth goes up. Do you have any Ideas on the possibility of k55 being required on this particular table? I generally adhere to the policy of check twice or even thrice before venturing forth. If I have installed the wrong cushion material/profile then I am completely at fault. I feel I should check,double check,and then triple check all possible causes of this problem. If I find no solid evidence of the issue being my fault, then I shall shall move forward with great purpose in the direction you recommend.


On the comment from Bigkahuna about the rails "playing short" I suspect he was refering to bank distance rather than angle but I could be wrong.

Thanks again for your input

Sincerly WilliamD

 

[WilliamD]

Don't worry, K66 is the correct cushions for a Gandy Big G, but that don't mean that someone before you didn't change the cushions a long time ago

Glenn
Didn,t see you there !
Thanks for the confirmation on correct profile. It really eases my mind to know that!

Thanks again
WilliamD

 

[Donny Wessels]

Donny

I will assure you that we did a real torture test in the adhesion quality arena before covering the rails. Those things are ON there to Stay !!


Was the big G you recushioned fitted with K66 profile? I don't have years of experiece in this field but my gut is starting to tell me that this table might possibly have required the k55 profile. With the required lowering of the cushion on the subrail bevel to achieve proper nose height and playing field dimensions this is starting to feel like a real possibility.
All of my research before hand indicated the k66 profile was called for on this application. Is it possible some tables were manufactured with the slightly more robust k55 profile. Even more troubling now was Glens statement about typical low nose height on Gandys (which I believe is true in his experience) while I saw the opposite condition on this table
( high initial nose height ) . I have to admit that I did not check subrail angle before cushion installation and I really should have. Please tell me I have not installed the wrong profile on this table!!

I brought both K55 and K66 to the job site. I don't remember which I used but I do remember hearing about low cushions on the Big G's, and this particular table being the opposite. I ended up setting the cushion about a 1/16 below the top of the sub-rail to achieve proper cushion hieght. I don't have any answers for your situation, perhaps Glen can help you, he's the one I call.