Custom Cue

[Shawn Armstrong]

C'mon Manwon...with respect, imo your statements are truly misguided and are the ones that are as you put it "a JOKE and very LAUGHABLE!!!!!!".... by your standard these makers do not make "custom" cues........

Richard Black
Dennis Searing
Joel Herceck
Bill Stroud,
Ernie Gutierrez
Tony Sciannella
Bob Manzino
Jerry Mcworter
Keith Josey
Leonard Bludworth
Thomas Wayne
Marcus Dienst
Tad Kohara
Richard Chudy
Bob Runde
Paul Drexler
Paul Mottey
James White
Tim Scruggs
Joe Gold
Mike Bender
...........among many others and some that i won't say that would FLOOR you to know use CNC technology in some ways to make a better product...........

as far as you're CNC statement......a machine is a machine is a machine imo. name one maker who doesn't use a machine of sorts to make their cues??? you mention the use of a Pantograph as an "allowed" machine to use, well, FYI, a Pantograph does basically the same thing as a milling machine fastened with electronic motors utilizing CNC technology. the patterns made for a Pantograph have been mostly made by CNC controlled machines for some time and are like the files programed and controlled by the motors of machine using the CNC acting as the "hands". they both use the same cutters and even use the same spindles. the only difference is a CNC milling machine will utilize the technology for more accurate, intricate, as well error forgiving work. again, there is NO maker who doesn't make their cues by hand, PERIOD. they all, including you, use their hands and various machinery to produce their product. i also love your statement, this was funny, "These people use the latest technology / computer driven machinery to create cues very quickly and to make some very intricate designs. While these cues are mostly very sound, they are not truly custom, because with the flip of a switch and the loading of a computer program that same design can be exactly duplicated." this statement reeks as clueless to what it takes to be able to use this technology. to bulk not just anyone but everyone into your statement who use it, is reckless and ignorant to the art of machining of any kind. as far as your "waiting list" comment that is just as far off as the others.

sorry if i've offended you with my knowledge and not my opinion.

have even a better day!!

This post got me to thinking:

Let's say I buy all my components from a component house. Everything is done on specific machines that do a much better job than my own machines in my workshop. I have all my shafts done by an outside house that does everything with CNC. All my forearms are cored with a gun drill, filled with laminated maple cores, and inlaid by a local house that specializes in CAD and CNC designs. I merely connect the cue together. I then have it tapered by the same CNC house that specializes in cutting, using a Techno-Isel CNC lathe. Once it's done, I take it to Bob's Autobody, where it gets sprayed with 4 coats of Dupont Imron Clear Coat. I pick it up again, take it home, and add a wrap, ferrule and tip.

Am I a custom cuemaker?

 

[manwon]

Skins will come to the defense of CNC, because it's what he builds with Keith. Do I think that technology has changed cuemaking? Sure, it has. Here's my problem with CNC. People charge as if the work is still being done by hand. If the machine makes you faster and more precise, that should be reflected in the pricetag of the cue. If you're handcutting points and doing inlay work with the pantograph, there's more man hours involved. With CNC, your most valuable employee is a computer.

If you build CNC inlaid cues, you should consider yourself a custom/production house. You are a Joss, Viking, Pechauer. You offer your designs, same as them. They do custom, you do custom. If the machine does more work on the cue than you, you're not the cuemaker.

Like I said above when making the purchase of a Custom Cue pay attention to the techniques used to make it if you are spending more than $1000.00. If you can buy a hand made one of kind cue buy it over any CNC Artistic cue. Look at the cues currently selling for $1000.00 plus on the market today. In my opinion CNC Machined cues are not a good investment vehicle long or short term. Now do not get me wrong, I am certain that many will play well, however, long term you will never recoup the cost spent.

Look out there, see where the big dollars are being spent today, and you will see that people are buying Traditional cues constructed without CNC machinery. In addition the cue makers still building their products by hand are also the most sought after in the industry, and they also have off the chart waiting lists.

Have a good day!!!

 

[manwon]

Custom cues by Bill Gates. I can hardly wait.

I bet they would call it the window cue!!!!!!

 

[trustyrusty]

After merely scanning the posts on this thread, I have to say I agree with points on both sides....First, "custom" to me means, made to specs and maybe even some design elements are requested by the buyer. It is still "custom" even if the owner is no longer the original buyer.

As far as the CNC vs. non-CNC....that has nothing to due with the "custom" claim of the cue. While it will probably be a factor in price, price has no bearing on whether or not the cue is custom. I can have Jacoby make a cue with CNC and give my imputs on what I want, and get it for a much lower price than if I were to order it from most of the non-CNC custom cue makers. Neither would be any more custom, but the style in which it were made would vary. If you are concerned with resale or collectability....whole different subject really. What would it matter to me if my influences are in a cue that I'm only looking to make money off of?

I'm only going for the custom question here; I don't care how people spend their money, or their reasons (whether it be a "look-at-me" purchase, or a "I think this or that plays better"). Either way on those issues....fine by me, spend what you wish for any reason you wish. Personally, I don't think I'd buy cues just to sell them. I'm not nuts though, so if someone whats to sell me a $????K cue for half of it's true market value....I'm game!!!

 

[manwon]

After merely scanning the posts on this thread, I have to say I agree with points on both sides....First, "custom" to me means, made to specs and maybe even some design elements are requested by the buyer. It is still "custom" even if the owner is no longer the original buyer.

As far as the CNC vs. non-CNC....that has nothing to due with the "custom" claim of the cue. While it will probably be a factor in price, price has no bearing on whether or not the cue is custom. I can have Jacoby make a cue with CNC and give my imputs on what I want, and get it for a much lower price than if I were to order it from most of the non-CNC custom cue makers. Neither would be any more custom, but the style in which it were made would vary. If you are concerned with resale or collectability....whole different subject really. What would it matter to me if my influences are in a cue that I'm only looking to make money off of?

I'm only going for the custom question here; I don't care how people spend their money, or their reasons (whether it be a "look-at-me" purchase, or a "I think this or that plays better"). Either way on those issues....fine by me, spend what you wish for any reason you wish. Personally, I don't think I'd buy cues just to sell them. I'm not nuts though, so if someone whats to sell me a $????K cue for half of it's true market value....I'm game!!!

Rusty you make a good point, and I do not argue with it the way you have presented it. My problem in general is with other posters who take themselves too seriously and feel that they have all the answers.

Have a good night Rusty

 

[smokeandapancak]

kay smoke, got ya. but those 2 cues i absolutely thought was custom, pretty spendy, made to spec in th 70's by traditional professionals but now sitting with me. what are they? pre/custom? dino/custom? waz/custom?

cheers,

Those would be very nice cues that were custom made for somebody else.. (unless you ordered them)...nice indeed, I am sure..

Look at it like this.... I have a Custom Tailored Boss suit hanging in my closet..very nice..slim cut..wonderful taper..perfect sleeve length...looks like it was made for me!.......'cause it was. That's custom...

Now if I sold that suit to you..would it be your custom suit or just a really nice suit?

Ahhhh..but whatever..this is one of those arguments that dont really matter much...just a different prespective of the meaning of a word.. .

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I think "custom" is a tag line that cuemakers use to make it sound like they have special superpowers. Everyone should be allowed to use it. Viking Custom Cues, McDermott Custom Cues, J&J Custom Cues, Falcon Custom Cues, etc.. They all use the same CNC machines as the "custom" cuemakers.

Instead of "custom", all the other makers now have to use the tag line "low production volume". But, that doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

 

[Gerry]

I feel in anything "custom" it just means you get what YOU want, and what you pay for. Not off the shelf.

IMO because something was "hand made" and took many hours to make, does not make it better...I personally would not go to bobs custom pace maker shop. I would want technology!

Working in more than a few machine shops I learned the art of machines is in the operator/set up person.....or millwright For any of you that don't know....you don't just flip a switch and tell the "CNC" or lathe to make a cue. Knowing your equipment and it's tendencies is half the battle.

This thread is tough because it's not just custom or not, it's is it a playing cue, an investment, a piece of art, your livelihood....too many arguments there!

BTW didn't Balabushka buy blanks from Szamboti?....don't tell me Balabushka was a production house!

Gerry

 

[trustyrusty]

I feel in anything "custom" it just means you get what YOU want, and what you pay for. Not off the shelf.

IMO because something was "hand made" and took many hours to make, does not make it better...I personally would not go to bobs custom pace maker shop. I would want technology!

Working in more than a few machine shops I learned the art of machines is in the operator/set up person.....or millwright For any of you that don't know....you don't just flip a switch and tell the "CNC" or lathe to make a cue. Knowing your equipment and it's tendencies is half the battle.

This thread is tough because it's not just custom or not, it's is it a playing cue, an investment, a piece of art, your livelihood....too many arguments there!

BTW didn't Balabushka buy blanks from Szamboti?....don't tell me Balabushka was a production house!

Gerry

This topic comes up from time to time on golf discussion boards that I frequent. I know guys who WILL NOT buy a production driver or putter. They have to have something that came from a tour van (each golf equipment company has mobile custom club makers at PGA tour events for the pros - to reshaft, bend, tweak, whatever). I have personally asked numerous folks that work for said companies if the clubs were made differently than the production ones, and have been told - "kinda" - the internal weighting may have been changed to suit a player, or the face may be open a couple of degrees instead of closed - square, etc. The materials in the clubs are identical to production, with a few tweaks to specs....which can be unnecessary due to manufacturing tolerances (they hand pick all the driver heads that come out "open" since that is preferred by pros). You can order a "production" driver to your specs (they will hand pick one that meets your needs) from the company for no extra charge at all. It won't come from the "tour van" though, and therefore you'll end up with a $400 driver, and not a $1000 driver. Funny thing is, most of these guys don't get fit for these clubs, they just think the clubs made for tour players will probably suit their game better than of the shelf ones

Now, for putters - I'd better not! I've made a boat load of cash from selling Camerons and Bettinardis that were TOUR ONLY. Heck, I had a headcover sell for over $600.....$600 for a headcover that cost Cameron $2 from AM&E, and another $3 for thread and labor. LOL - collectables

 

[HIRUN526]

Custom cue.......I believe a custom cue is designed and built from end to end at the cuemaker's shop. The only components of a cue not made by the cuemaker would be the weight bolt,bumper and the screw that holds in the bumper,metal joint pin,stainless steel joint,tip. The rest of the cue is made at the cuemakers shop from raw materials, even the inlay material should be from raw material. No purchased pre-made rings, inlay parts etc., especially no purchased pre-made forearm blanks. (I know G.B had his blanks made by others and that is why I don't rank his cues as high as Gus and some others.)

CNC is a tool that I believe is a valuable asset to the cuemaker in creating and installing inays(Inlays Only) that can truly reach perfection in execution and limitless design possibilities that are impossible to be performed by hand....if the cuemaker knows how to and is capable of operating this machine properly.
I also prefer a cuemaker that does his own design and program coding.
CNC is not a slam dunk that some have professed on this forum, I have seen an aweful lot of sloppy CNC work on many cues.

I prefer a one man shop, but one to maybe 3 is acceptable. There can be a worker or two in the shop doing rough cuts like on shafts from blanks and rough cuts on the raw handle blanks. No actual machining of tenons etc. maybe preparing veneer stock pre-sanding etc.

It all boils down to the talent of the cuemaker, patience,innovation,profiency of execution,and the desire and commitment to do his absolute best on every cue and his willingness to learn about new tooling and techniques and successfully mastering all the tools at hand even CNC machines.

The machine does not make the man...The man makes the machine.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Custom cue.......I believe a custom cue is designed and built from end to end at the cuemaker's shop. The only components of a cue not made by the cuemaker would be the weight bolt,bumper and the screw that holds in the bumper,metal joint pin,stainless steel joint,tip. The rest of the cue is made at the cuemakers shop from raw materials, even the inlay material should be from raw material. No pre-made rings, inlay parts etc., especially no purchased pre-made forearm blanks. (I know G.B had his blanks made by others and that is why I don't rank his cues as high as Gus and some others.)

CNC is a tool that I believe is a valuable asset to the cuemaker in creating and installing inays(Inlays Only) that can truly reach perfection in execution and limitless design possibilities that are impossible to be performed by hand....if the cuemaker knows how to and is capable of operating this machine properly.
I also prefer a cuemaker that does his own design and program coding.
CNC is not a slam dunk that some have professed on this forum, I have seen an aweful lot of sloppy CNC work on many cues.

I prefer a one man shop, but one to maybe 3 is acceptable. There can be a worker or two in the shop doing rough cuts like on shafts from blanks and rough cuts on the raw handle blanks. No actual machining of tenons etc. maybe preparing veneer stock pre-sanding etc.

It all boils down to the talent of the cuemaker, patience,innovation,profiency of execution,and the desire and commitment to do his absolute best on every cue and his willingness to learn about new tooling and techniques and successfully mastering all the tools at hand even CNC machines.

The machine does not make the man...The man makes the machine.

By your definitions, there are very few custom cuemakers that would fit this description. Here's your morning shocker. Know who fits this description word for word?

EVAN CLARKE - Schon Cues.

 

[skins]

CNC is a tool that I believe is a valuable asset to the cuemaker in creating and installing inays(Inlays Only) that can truly reach perfection in execution and limitless design possibilities that are impossible to be performed by hand....

with respect, this statement is not true. the technology can be valuble for ALL types of machining from milling to cutting to sanding to turning ect.......like i said there are so called "hand" makers who use this technology for other machining. HIGHRUN526, there is allot of ignorance on this board even coming from cuemakers themselves. i don't lump you in with them but i think there are still some things you might want to know. anytime you want to pm me feel free.

"The machine does not make the man...The man makes the machine." ......ABSOLUTELY TRUE!

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

with respect, this statement is not true. the technology can be valuble for ALL types of machining from milling to cutting to sanding to turning ect.......like i said there are so called "hand" makers who use this technology for other machining. HIGHRUN526, there is allot of ignorance on this board even coming from cuemakers themselves. i don't lump you in with them but i think there are still some things you might want to know. anytime you want to pm me feel free.

"The machine does not make the man...The man makes the machine." ......ABSOLUTELY TRUE!

You're not biased because you're a CNC programmer, are you?

 

[HIRUN526]

Here are some living cuemaker's I believe that fit this description. Some use CNC and some don't, but they make the entire cue less some of the mentioned parts like tip,metal joint etc. I'm sure there are probably more.
Dennis Searing
Barry Szamboti
John SHowman
Joel Hercek
Bob Manzino
South West
Ernie Guiterez
Thomas Wayne
Shawn:I do not have any info on Bill about his cuemaking techniques, but I will take your word on that.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Here are some living cuemaker's I believe that fit this description. Some use CNC and some don't, but they make the entire cue less some of the mentioned parts like tip,metal joint etc. I'm sure there are probably more.
Dennis Searing
Barry Szamboti
John SHowman
Joel Hercek
Bob Manzino
South West
Ernie Guiterez

I'm not sure how many of them program their own machines. Now, put Thomas Wayne and Bill Stroud on that list and I'm happy.

 

[HIRUN526]

Hello Skins,
You have a valid and good point and I have no issue with that. I was just listing what I like in cuemaking techniques.

Scott

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Take a look at these beauties from Tai-Can in Taiwan:

http://cgi.ebay.com.hk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250074358166&ih=015&category=44077

http://cgi.ebay.com.hk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250074358265&ih=015&category=44077

http://cgi.ebay.com.hk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250074358025&ih=015&category=44077

http://cgi.ebay.com.hk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250074357948&ih=015&category=44077

The most expensive is $810 with two shafts. Radial pins - heck, the guys were trained by Bill Stroud.

How much would a North American custom cuemaker charge for these? $2K? $3K?

You're right, skins. It's definitely not the machine that has the talent.

 

[skins]

I feel in anything "custom" it just means you get what YOU want, and what you pay for. Not off the shelf.

IMO because something was "hand made" and took many hours to make, does not make it better...I personally would not go to bobs custom pace maker shop. I would want technology!

Working in more than a few machine shops I learned the art of machines is in the operator/set up person.....or millwright For any of you that don't know....you don't just flip a switch and tell the "CNC" or lathe to make a cue. Knowing your equipment and it's tendencies is half the battle.

This thread is tough because it's not just custom or not, it's is it a playing cue, an investment, a piece of art, your livelihood....too many arguments there!

BTW didn't Balabushka buy blanks from Szamboti?....don't tell me Balabushka was a production house!

Gerry

Gerry, at least as a machinist you understand. to those who think the use of higher level technology makes it easier to make a masterpiece, i challenge them to create to the level of those i mentioned without the use of it. good luck!! they're are just woofin' because they know they can't and unknowingly flaunt that. and you, one who knows cues, make a very good point about GB.....
as for Manwon spewing "My problem in general is with other posters who take themselves too seriously and feel that they have all the answers."......yes some very seriously and no some not with ALL the answers just some with more than him.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

to those who think the use of higher level technology makes it easier to make a masterpiece, i challenge them to create to the level of those i mentioned without the use of it. good luck!!

So, should I make the cheque out for my next cue to Techno-Isel, or skins? If you couldn't do it, the machine is the one that made it possible. Therefore, it's no longer "your" creation.

Like I said years ago, may the best programmer win. There USED to be craftsmen like Paul Dayton that used a DREMEL to create their cues. That's an artist. When you plug your cue into the indexing jig mounted in your CNC milling machine and press START, at that point my son could take over the rest of the cuemaking procedure. He loves glueing little pieces into precut little holes.........

 

[skins]

Shawn:I do not have any info on Bill about his cuemaking techniques, but I will take your word on that.

if i may "read in" to the thought here,do you mean Bill Shick making all of his own patterns for his panto himself without CNC technology. most of the patterns are not very intricate in comparison to some of the ones, let's say, Joe Gold used in his Cog's and as such Bill has great success with them. one thing i want to make clear, i think the use of a panto is great. it's not an easy machine to master same as ones with comperter technology. they both offer the same direction for milling and there is not only a learning curve for both but ones who become "better" at using either than others. imo the goal of a maker is to bring their creation to light and to the customer. what machines they use to do it is up to them as well as how they decide to use them.