cut induced throw?

Why are there players out there who have decades of experience and still cannot play? Why are there players who've learned every technical issue there is and still cannot play?

Talent...You've either got it or you ain't.

I agree with what you wrote about physical skills being so important but you are missing a big part about the importance of knowledge too and why someone with a lot of knowledge, even if they can't play well due to lack of talent, can still teach someone else with tons of talent who doesn't possess all their knowledge. The physics knowledge of the game (which is required in order to to play well) will mostly be learned by the subconscious through experience even if you aren't consciously aware of that knowledge and the physics. However, knowing the correct physics on a conscious level (and by that I mean consciously knowing exactly what will happen and why in all circumstances--not necessarily knowing all the complicated mathematical formulas) has plenty of benefits too. Among them are:

-Even though your subconscious will eventually learn most of the physics through experience, it will never learn quite all of it perfectly. You will still miss on occasion simply because your subconscious didn't know precisely what was going to happen on a shot. If you had the conscious knowledge of the physics behind that shot though, meaning you had the "book" knowledge of what was going to happen for lack of a better term, then your subconscious would have also developed and cataloged that knowledge too (and the subconscious knowledge is the working knowledge that is almost totally responsible for the judgments used in your shooting and playing). Having the conscious knowledge will eliminate those gaps in your subconscious knowledge therefore eliminating those errors caused by those knowledge gaps.

-For any given amount of talent (assuming the same amount of practice etc) the person with the most knowledge will be the better player. This also means that any particular player will be better with more knowledge even if nothing else improves such as their talent or amount of practice etc. Even Shane Van Boening would further improve with more knowledge, and there are plenty who have more knowledge than he does. Now granted those improvements would be incremental and very small at his level, since most ability is due to talent and hard work and since the subconscious learns most of the physics anyway with enough experience, but the improvements would still be there none the less.

-Even though most of the physics is learned through experience, it can be learned much faster if you have the conscious "book" knowledge of what happens on the table and why first. Your subconscious can catalog all your experience much faster and more efficiently when you already have the conscious knowledge. Having the conscious knowledge dramatically shortens the learning curve.

-Whenever what your conscious mind believes about something is in conflict with what your subconscious has learned through experience, this conflict in beliefs between the conscious and subconscious can lead to the occasional error that would not have happened without that conflict in beliefs. As already mentioned your subconscious has almost total control of making the judgments and decisions on your shot executions, but when your conscious believes something different about the physics than what your subconscious knows from experience it causes enough interference with your subconscious to cause it to make bad decisions on occasion. It causes the subconscious to second guess itself so to speak and to not totally do the right thing. If your conscious knowledge were always correct, it would never be in conflict with your subconscious knowledge and you won't be having those occasional errors caused by the conflict in belief between the two.

-Having the conscious knowledge of exactly what will happen and why on every shot at the table can lead to greater confidence, and we all know how importance confidence can be to our performance.

And as I said earlier, pool requires physical skill, and knowledge. As you point out, without physical skill all the knowledge in the world isn't going to make you great at pool, although it will certainly make you better than if you didn't have it. But similarly, all the physical skill in the world won't make you great without knowledge either. Fortunately our subconscious picks up most (but not all) of this knowledge through experience, but because of the reasons above we will be even better (and more quickly) by consciously learning more of the knowledge that is available. And it can be learned from the guys that have that knowledge, whether those guys have the physical skill to be able to perform well themselves or not.
 
C'mon, you're reaching here. All of these things are easily discovered just by playing the game, or by hanging out with good players and observing what they do and trying to duplicate it. Most great players have had several mentors along the way who showed them some of the tricks of the trade. You don't need knowledge of the physics behind these tricks, you just need to know how to hit the ball correctly for the required shots and to pay attention to the results.

Sorry, when I think about the physics of the game I am thinking about using computational techniques that require lots of math, and experimental studies that require tightly controlled conditions and expensive measuring devices. You don't need any of this stuff to play jam up pool if you have the latent ability and the desire to put in the requisite amount of time.

Just about everything that you need to know to play the game at the highest level is readily apparent to an observant player, and will be learned through diligent practice and focused play. One does not need to know how any of it works in order to be able to execute it flawlessly. It's the execution part where most of us fail, not the lack of understanding of the science behind it all.

I mostly agree with your post with a few small exceptions. See post #81 above for why I think also having the conscious knowledge of the physics of the game (not necessarily knowing the formulas but just having the conscious knowledge of always knowing exactly what will happen and why) is better than having only the knowledge from experience alone. There are a number of good reasons.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5335556&postcount=81
 
If I said I had a foolproof method to reduce the chance of scratching by 70% or more would any of you believe me?

What sort of proof would you require to accept this as true?
 
It doesn't take science to learn CIT.
Good players who stay down will observe shait happens .

I was at Shooters one memorial weekend . Efren was playing some one hole .
After midnight, Efren said his hits were " thickening" b/c of the humidity.
 
If I said I had a foolproof method to reduce the chance of scratching by 70% or more would any of you believe me?

What sort of proof would you require to accept this as true?

The earlier anecdote about your friend...good players don't scratch multiple times in the bottom pockets unless they are exceptionally unlucky. Your friend is not a good player.

And here is the root of the issue with both CTE guys and physics gals - in general terms, you don't understand what makes a player good, and what it takes to get there.

The sudden love-in between the two mortal enemies is amusing though. :grin:
 
If I said I had a foolproof method to reduce the chance of scratching by 70% or more would any of you believe me?

What sort of proof would you require to accept this as true?
You have to insult some people, bet $100K and post a video of you shooting some shots (preferably not scratching) and saying it's working.

pj <- everybody knows that's how "AzB proof" works
chgo
 
The earlier anecdote about your friend...good players don't scratch multiple times in the bottom pockets unless they are exceptionally unlucky. Your friend is not a good player.

And here is the root of the issue with both CTE guys and physics gals - in general terms, you don't understand what makes a player good, and what it takes to get there.

The sudden love-in between the two mortal enemies is amusing though. :grin:

Come on Ron!
Those Filipino and Taiwanese teen-age table monsters know their Trig and Geometry . :D
Fkkrs go down and know how to shot any shot . If you got the eye, you got the eye.
 
Come on Ron!
Those Filipino and Taiwanese teen-age table monsters know their Trig and Geometry . :D
Fkkrs go down and know how to shot any shot . If you got the eye, you got the eye.

They are great because they can smash the shit out of the CB with minimal effort.

Timing trumps all.
 
Come on Ron!
Those Filipino and Taiwanese teen-age table monsters know their Trig and Geometry . :D
Fkkrs go down and know how to shot any shot . If you got the eye, you got the eye.

Really? So none of them put in any table time to learn the shots? None of them were mentored or influenced by the top players who came before them.

How come then Efren seems to know more shots than most FIlipinos?

I know for example that the Taiwanese and Chinese do have intense coaching when they are teenagers. Any shots they know come from a lot of training and practice.

Are you naturally talented as a cue maker or did you have to learn how to be one? Or did you one day walk into the shop and start making world class cues with no prior knowledge or training?
 
Really? So none of them put in any table time to learn the shots? None of them were mentored or influenced by the top players who came before them.

How come then Efren seems to know more shots than most FIlipinos?


I know for example that the Taiwanese and Chinese do have intense coaching when they are teenagers. Any shots they know come from a lot of training and practice.

Are you naturally talented as a cue maker or did you have to learn how to be one? Or did you one day walk into the shop and start making world class cues with no prior knowledge or training?

Talent, John. Do keep up.
 
It doesn't take science to learn CIT.
Good players who stay down will observe shait happens .

I was at Shooters one memorial weekend . Efren was playing some one hole .
After midnight, Efren said his hits were " thickening" b/c of the humidity.

While the sentiment of your post is largely true you will never learn everything in pool perfectly through observation/experience alone. You will learn it more perfectly by making an effort to learn the science than you ever will with just experience. Plus, if your conscious beliefs ever differ from what your subconscious has learned through experience (this actually occurs quite a bit) it will lead to shot making errors sometimes. There are other good reasons for knowing the science too (not knowing the formulas, just knowing the scientific truths). See post #81 for more detail.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5335556&postcount=81
 
Talent, John. Do keep up.

Wrong.

Knowledge and practice.

Efren, when asked how he knows so many great shots said he watches amateurs make fluke shots and then he goes to the table and practices those shots until he can do them on purpose.
 
How come some studs get paid millions ?
Hell, all you need to do is train horses to run , right ?
Why pay millions for lineage ?

You're going to reduce human achievement to genetics? So essentially the offspring of Efren should be as good as Efren?

Seems not to be the case for Efren's ACTUAL son who by all accounts is about a B player at best.
 
Wrong.

Knowledge and practice.

Efren, when asked how he knows so many great shots said he watches amateurs make fluke shots and then he goes to the table and practices those shots until he can do them on purpose.

And at 12 years old, he beat the number 8 player in the islands .
That #8 player had thousands of hours on Efren on the table .
Totoy Dacer was the best player in the land . By the time Efren was in his late teens, he was robbing him.
Efren is a savant . So is SVB .
Nobody said they didn't need to practice.
Neither one knows the science of billiards. The science is in their eyes.
 
Efren is a savant . So is SVB . Neither one knows the science of billiards.

Wrong. Both of their subconscious's learned most of the science of billiards through experience. Now if they consciously learned the last bit they would be even slightly better. I do agree that both had exceptional talent.
 
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