cutting up the cash

[Wally in Cincy]

.... I drove 100 miles to watch them play and they refused to play.

JimS,

Last year at a Viking stop in Cincy Shawn Putnam and Danny Basavitch were due to meet in the finals. Kid Delicious decided not to play. He said he ate too many cheeseburgers . A bit suspicious don't you think?

Fortunately I did not drive to see it even though I wanted to. Too much to do at home.

 

[Wally in Cincy]

Didn't something like this happen at the Reno Open a year or so ago? I remember someone talking about a fix and Tony banned them or something.

Maybe Mike can find that story in his archives. I tried a search and couldn't find it.

 

[ajrack]

I was at the winner take all tourney at the Mirage in Vegas...(early 90's) and saw some very surprising shots being missed.
MIke Lebron was a 17-1 underdog!!!
The Mirage bookmakers relied on a couple of the competing players to set the odds. I heard the Mirage lost about $250,000!!!
I don't think the Mirage willl have another tourney soon...

 

[ajrack]

I believe that if you really want to have a better chance of having a legitmate champion in a large tournament, you should have a payoff like...winner gets $10,000 and a CAR ... the 2nd place wins only $10,000.
Of course, the winner may sell the car but it may be hard to split the 1st/2nd payoffs!

 

[fxskater]

The proper way!!

I do splits in the finals all the time. But only with my friends and never before the final. For instance last night i play in a crappy little bar tournament. Me and a friend made it all the way to the A final before we had to play each other. We did not make a deal there. We both played to win. I won 2 nothing in a race to 2 and he went to the B-Side. After he won the B-Side final we had to play again. The prize money was $50 for first and $25 for second but we decided to do a split because we are both good players and both wanted to be guaranteed a little bit more money. So we Made it $40 - $35. We still both played hard but he ended up being the winner and taking $5 more. I don't think there is anything wrong with a split, as long as both players are still both playing to win. Sometimes we do a straight split plus add $5 each. So when the prize money is $100 for first and $50 for second we make it $80 for first and $65 for second. I think as long as everyone is playing to win a split can work out better for everyone.

 

[Celtic]

I was at the winner take all tourney at the Mirage in Vegas...(early 90's) and saw some very surprising shots being missed.
MIke Lebron was a 17-1 underdog!!!
The Mirage bookmakers relied on a couple of the competing players to set the odds. I heard the Mirage lost about $250,000!!!
I don't think the Mirage willl have another tourney soon...

That is one way to totally fuck over pool. Casino's are one of the best chances out sport has to make huge inroads and get a ton more money. Betting on the games is another. Stupid little dumps and ploys like that may make someone a few thousand dollars that day but they cost the sport millions of possible endorsments and the chance of tours and tournaments that pay $50,000 and up for first if people would stop going for the quick buck and look to the future.

 

[thebigdog]

That is one way to totally fuck over pool. Casino's are one of the best chances out sport has to make huge inroads and get a ton more money. Betting on the games is another. Stupid little dumps and ploys like that may make someone a few thousand dollars that day but they cost the sport millions of possible endorsments and the chance of tours and tournaments that pay $50,000 and up for first if people would stop going for the quick buck and look to the future.

Thats exactly what happened, the casino's in Vegas pretty much stopped consindering hosting pro pool events after that and even the ones the did hold were for much less money. Hopefully when the oppurtunity presents itself in the future, the guys will learn from this and act a little more responsible.

 

[Perk]

When I am in tourney's I always play to win, regardless if there are savers.

I have 1 friend in particular that I travel with. Any tourney worth going to in my area is at least 1.5 hours away, and usually requires a hotel room. So we have an agreement in place before we go. Depending on the tourney, we have a couple types of agreements. 1.) 50-50 regardless of anything. 2.) If 1 person gets in the money, its 25% to the other, unless he wins the tourney, then its 50%.

Since payouts are so much higher when you get 1st or 2nd rather than anything else, we just cut it even if we win, but if one of us takes 4th for example, it is worth our time instead of splitting a small amount evenly.

Winning is the main goal, regardless, but we want it worth our time if we know that we are going to have to play each other.

 

[JPB]

I wasn't dumping so we could fleece my backer, I wasn't dogging shots in a ring game so we could rob the third player in the game. I was just playing so that my partner and I had the best chance of profitting from the tournament.

Anyone who was affected by this, was going to have to go through one of us anyways. We just made it a little tougher game for the opponent.

Mike

Sorry, this is inexcusable conduct. Don't play it off saying it was a penny ante tournament or whatever. You guys cheated. You cheated others. And you cheated yourselves. Hopefully you don't do this kind of thing anymore.

 

[vapoolplayer]

Sorry, this is inexcusable conduct. Don't play it off saying it was a penny ante tournament or whatever. You guys cheated. You cheated others. And you cheated yourselves. Hopefully you don't do this kind of thing anymore.

as mike said earlier, it wouldn't matter either way............eventually people would have to get to them anyway..........

VAP

 

[occhaos1]

akeith, Hi Stranger....

Keith,
I am so glad to see that your are still above the water.... Congrats on the newest defeat!! I wish I could have seen it. All is well here I still play in a league and still a "4" Its ao much fun and gratifying when you are doing things that you enjoy so so much. Anyway Look me up for sure, I sent you my info and hope you make it back home (O.C.) to visit soon.

With respect, your #1 Fan and friend forever,
Tara

 

[jason]

It is unfortunate that dumping happens in our sport. It is unfortunate that it has happened in boxing, basketball and even baseball (white sox). Anytime money is involved, there will be an opportunity for cheating to occur.

On the other hand, splitting prise money is ok. The way I see it is if two players want to split 2nd and 3rd, why should I care...I'm getting 1st!

For the gentleman who drove 100 miles to watch two players split and not play, shame on them. If this was a tournament where people paid to watch, I would have been pissed. Now the guys who refused to play...they hurt their own tournament action because the gentleman probably won't drive 100 miles again and donate his entry to the next tournament.

In fact, I was at the match when Earl refused to play Cory in a match several years ago. Now who ended up with the cash? Didn't matter to me, but I did pay to see quality pool action. I was cheated of this and should have demanded my money back.

This type of behavior is as old as mankind. It's just human nature. When someone steals money by dumping its not any different then stealing from a bank, cheating on your taxes or taking office supplies.

As far as betting on other players who might get to the finals..bettor beware. Only bet on yourself or a trusted player.

 

[JPB]

as mike said earlier, it wouldn't matter either way............eventually people would have to get to them anyway..........

VAP

No, he confessed to cheating. He said it made it harder for opponents. So he and another guy colluded to cheat others in the tournament. It is collusion in what is supposed to be an individual sport. It ruins the game, it is against the spirit of competition, it cheats others out of money (at least EV - a percentage of the money they expect to win in the long run, etc...) and cheats the people doing it. It is a terrible practice. Also, if it didn't matter, why would they do it? Of course it affected the outcome, and Mike said as much.


Look, if you want to play a sport, play it. Play it hard and play at a level you can afford. If you can't afford the tournament don't go. If you can't pay entry fees, don't go. If you play for the money, play as a pro. If you can't make it honestly, don't pretend to play for the sport. You may as well do any con or hustle that makes money. And if you do the whole doing business, dumping backers dumping matches lemonading locksmith bit, well fine. Just don't think it is something to be proud of or that it is what competition is about. And please don't condone it, it does ruin things.

p.s. I am totally fine with gambling. Heads up matches are just fine, playing for cash is fine. And if speed is hidden etc... that is fine. The parties have no expectation they will not get worked that way. But dumping backers is different in that context. And so is dumping matches in a tournament with a partner.

 

[frankncali]

The LeBron odds were more like 40-1 at the start and 17 or 19-1 in the finals.

LeBron played the catcher if it happened but his name should not be the only
one dragged around. It was Buddy Hall that lost the finals to him.
He missed a 2 or 3 ball that was a little odd.

However If anyone thinks that Savers, Splits and losing on purposed is just in pool they are kidding themselves.
In golf it happens all the time. Not many Skins events are really decided by the shots. The money at least.
Event the great ones on the senior tour cut the Skins.
I have known of bowlers splitting or setting up percentages for the TV round and then bowling for those splits and not the actual ones.
In football it happens a little differently but things happen. How about
when Farve fell down to let the season sack record be broken. The "record
breaker" happened to have a contract bonus for getting the record. I believe there was no reason to pass. They might not have split the money but
its the same principal.

As for weekly events and non-Pro players it happens all the time and I dont see to much if anything wrong with it.
The way I see it is that if I go out with a friend and are in 50/50 then we are in business. We should do want ever will likely win us the most money.
If that means when we play one person of choice goes to the losers side then so be it. The others can still beat us.
Savers are okay and have zero effect on the event or anyone else in the tournament.
Dumping is bad and I really dont like it. I have seen many guys start out as
honorable only to dump a match for a sidebet or to dump a staker.
I dont like it on any level especially the Pros.