Cuttung shots with inside english.and the contact point.

LAMas,

Thanks, for the images. Though my trig and calc are rusty, I get the gist and relationships between the angle in/angle out.

There's several minor conversations going on here, but that's good. Changing the way we understand the stroke is a must in order to learn more about it. Though it may be uncomfortable for some at first when the status quo is changed, the free flow of new information will add to the total knowledge base.

The laws of physics won't be changed, as some would accuse all new sources of anecdotal evidence to be aimed at doing, but instead a closer look at the stroke and its components along with cue ball action will be achieved. Short answers like "angle of attack", may eventually get explained instead of leaving the imagery to each individual player's interpretation. Discussion is good! :)

Best,
Mike
 
ENGLISH! said:
Patrick,

Does what one does before contact with the ball effect what happens after contact with the ball...biomechanically?

If two different things occur during contact will the result be the same?

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
Click to expand...

I could very well be confused, it will be the 20th time today so I am good.
I said it before, I say it again, I take it to bed with me.

Follow through is much more important before the stroke and during the delivery, rather than the ending. The completion of the stroke is another story and greatly overlooked.

As far as the second thing, I call uncle.
Going back to my catatonic state.

Sincerely: SS
 
It's okay. I was only hit by a 'glancing' blow. :wink:

Thanks for the chuckles, guys.

Best 2 All,
Rick
 
If the Duck veered up just before impact you could possibly end up with a forehand or backhand topspin, or an exaggerated top spin lob, just like a tennis stroke.
Na, what am I thinking
Sincerely: SS
 
Rick:
Does what one does before contact with the ball effect what happens after contact with the ball...biomechanically?

If two different things occur during contact will the result be the same?
Click to expand...
Mike:
I'd say yes and no. And I think you'd agree with me.
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I'd say:

Whatever one does before contact with the cue ball CAN (but isn't guaranteed to) affect the cue tip's angle, speed and spot of contact - and that determines (not just affects) what the CB does afterward. But I don't know what biomechanics has to do with the question.

If any of the tip's angle, speed or contact spot change, then the result cannot be the same. If none of those things change, then the result must be the same. Those are the only things that "occur during contact" that matter.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I'd say:

Whatever one does before contact with the cue ball CAN (but isn't guaranteed to) affect the cue tip's angle, speed and spot of contact - and that determines (not just affects) what the CB does afterward. But I don't know what biomechanics has to do with the question.

If any of the tip's angle, speed or contact spot change, then the result cannot be the same. If none of those things change, then the result must be the same. Those are the only things that "occur during contact" that matter.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Agreed. And how do these subtle changes get implemented to create the corresponding outcomes after the stroke? Not baiting you, just interested in other's opinions on what is actually happening during the last parts of the stroke to the cue ball and the player.

Best,
Mike
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I'd say:

Whatever one does before contact with the cue ball CAN (but isn't guaranteed to) affect the cue tip's angle, speed and spot of contact - and that determines (not just affects) what the CB does afterward. But I don't know what biomechanics has to do with the question.

If any of the tip's angle, speed or contact spot change, then the result cannot be the same. If none of those things change, then the result must be the same. Those are the only things that "occur during contact" that matter.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Patrick,

Good answers. I thought you did not understand my questions.

Like I said earlier, I was going to retract them because I realised that we lack a common agreement from which to proceed.

Another question though if you don't mind. In your opinion, even though the time is very very short, do you think the cue & the tip can be accelerating through & during contact & in a another case be decelerating through & during contact & in another case have constant velocity through & during contact?

Best 2 You,
Rick
 
SmoothStroke said:
If the Duck veered up just before impact you could possibly end up with a forehand or backhand topspin, or an exaggerated top spin lob, just like a tennis stroke.
Na, what am I thinking
Sincerely: SS
Click to expand...

Now, you did it! :grin-square: I take great offense to that remark and use that offense in my pool game. :cool:

Best,
Mike
 
DTL said:
There are many different kinds of strokes......good, bad, straight, crooked, swooping, punch, long, short, etc. The CB doesn't care which one is used. All it knows is that it was hit at a certain speed by a stick's tip that was pointed at a certain angle/direction....... and at approx 0.001 seconds later it is on its way down the table. NOTHING after this 0.001 second has any effect on what happens next to the CB other than humidity, cloth condition, and levelness of the slate.

What limits spin is a center or very near center ball hit on the CB. The amount of CB "movement" (before rail contact) depends on the speed at which it is hit and somewhat by how much below center the CB is hit. What is accelerating at the moment of contact?....that sounds hard to do, lol. As mentioned above, the only speed that counts is at the moment of contact. If that speed is maintained through the CB (doesn't really go through the CB:))......the CB doesn't know it, and doesn't care. Having said all that, the follow through has nothing to do with what happens after contact......its less than 0.001 seconds long, right?

I can agree with the red above.


DTL

p.s. English, you used the word bio-mechanics. The balls are inanimate objects.....not living. :wink: JK, I know you probably meant something else. No PMs please.:)
Click to expand...

I was referring to the different biomechanics that would be required to get an extended follow through vs a short one. What we do biomechanically with the cue prior to contact & during contact affects what happens after contact. Hence the after contact can be an indication of what may have & probably did happened during contact & before contact. IMHO, One can not have two totally different follow throughs & have the same results on the cue ball unless it is faked & contrived & executed well after contact.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

PS The 1 to 2 thousandths of a second is a lifetime for a pool shot.

PSS Also pool strokes can be like how different golfer move the golf ball. Some are hitters & others are swingers. Some hit at the golf ball & others swing the club through the golf ball. The results can be drastically different especially if one goes from hitting to swinging.
 
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CJ Wiley said:
...One requires the acceleration to be exactly at the moment of contact, the other has a consistent acceleration through the cue ball...
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The idea of pinning the cue ball is probably more consistent with your first example of the stroke. The second method would most likely be a typical stroke for most better players.

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
The idea of pinning the cue ball is probably more consistent with your first example of the stroke. The second method would most likely be a typical stroke for most better players.

Best,
Mike
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Hi again Mike,

In hitting a baseball & in golf & tennis it's about delaying the release of the wrists.

One uses the body & the arms to move the 'implement' & the last thing to be put into play are the wrists.

The big muscles start the movement & the speed builds up to the maximum that the big muscles are capable of moving the implement & then the wrists release the power that has been 'kinetically' built & stored in them. if one releases the wrists early or mid way through the motion then that speed has been spent & then there is nothing left but the big muscles & maybe some momentum from the release of the wrists.

I just posted that as in every athletic endeavor it's all in the timing.

Timing & what goes on in that 1 to 2 thousandths of a second.

I better just stop there.

Oh yeah, in swinging a baseball bat there is a relationship between the wrists & the fingers. It's the fingers that pull the trigger.

Best,
Rick

PS My baseball swing may be affecting my pool stroke both positively & negatively, depending on my timing.:wink:
 
DTL said:
Hitters hit with the right arm and usually more down and harder on the ball (hands way in front of the ball with angled shaft, left wrist straight/right wrist bent) compressing it against the face of the club......ball explodes out of there usually with a lower ball flight.

Swingers try to hit down on the ball too but use the left arm and just swing the club smoothly through with the intent of just letting the ball get in the way. They'll have a consistent ball path commensurate with the the club used.

Whether the ball fades or draws depends on the angle of the club at contact (not square) and swing approach (? inside out/ outside in).

Pretty much same thing happens with the golf shot.....ball essentially gone at contact although the golf ball is on the club face way longer compared to the cue tip on a CB and this is due to the fact that the golf ball can be compressed. But you can't compare what happens with a club face (large, grooves, can be angled at contact) vs. a very small, slightly shaped cue tip.

ps I'm not a golfer, but I watch a lot of youtube videos. :smile: .........could be wrong here. Hitters vs swingers --> "The Golfing Machine"....tried reading that book once, was way over my head!
Click to expand...

I totally disagree with some of your golf explanation. You've mixed some of the parameters & added some that are in both. But that is not really here nor there concerning the point I was trying to make.

I think the analogy of the two different types of golf 'swings' can certainly be made to various types of pool cue strokes.

Everyone does not connect/hold the cue the same & everyone does not move the cue the same nor deliver it into the cue ball the same.

Obviously golf & pool are not the same. But the harder the ball the farther it will go if you can get equal compression. The golf clubs are harder than the ball although the newer ones have a trampoline effect so it's not all about compression anymore. Golf has been scientifically studied & it has evolved both were equipment & the biomechanics of the swing are concerned.

Pool is light years behind golf.

In pool the ball is harder than the tip but the stick is heavier. The tip was installed for grip for a non center hit & perhaps to soften or cushion the blow. If all hits were center hits on the ball there would be no need for a tip.

So...remove the tip & now let's talk about the different strokes. I say that rhetorically.

You seem to think that the stroke makes no difference.

Let's just agree that we disagree on that aspect.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

PS http://www.golf-simulators.com/physics.htm

When the clubface collides with the ball it's total contact time is approximately 0.0005 seconds and the peak force applied to the ball can be as high as 4000 pounds.

http://www.golf-simulators.com/physics.htm

The above was for a driver. The contact time for a typical iron is 1 /200th of a second.
 
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Mikjary said:
...how do these subtle changes get implemented to create the corresponding outcomes after the stroke?
Click to expand...
I think your stroke is entirely "implemented" by the speed, angle and spot it hits on the CB. Whatever goes on with your stroke prior to contact, its entire effect on the CB boils down to those three things at the instant of contact, and no significant change can happen during the 1/1000 second of contact following that.

pj
chgo
 
ENGLISH! said:
...do you think the cue & the tip can be accelerating through & during contact & in a another case be decelerating through & during contact & in another case have constant velocity through & during contact?
Click to expand...
The cue's acceleration during contact is beyond your control as soon as it hits the CB, because it's immediately drastically slowed at contact and the soft flesh of your skin (even with a tight grip) can't re-accelerate it fast enough to catch up before the CB is gone. "Accelerating through the CB" is a myth.

pj
chgo
 
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