Daimoninzing New Valley

iusedtoberich said:
Why anyone would want deep shelves like a Diamond is beyond me. Those shelves ruined pool.

Now, tightening up pockets with shallow shelves, that type of setup can be super good.
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I agree there. With brand new cloth the 7' diamonds play decent. After the cloth is broken in they are rattle traps. It's all my local place has so I don't even bother anymore. It seems they have taken over most places that have tournaments as the weaker players know they have a better chance of getting a shot against the better players. Same as why most love a faster table vs slow. Slow takes a stroke. Fast is just light pokes.
 
Brandon79ta said:
I agree there. With brand new cloth the 7' diamonds play decent. After the cloth is broken in they are rattle traps. It's all my local place has so I don't even bother anymore. It seems they have taken over most places that have tournaments as the weaker players know they have a better chance of getting a shot against the better players. Same as why most love a faster table vs slow. Slow takes a stroke. Fast is just light pokes.
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What do you usually play on? I play on 7’ Diamonds with worn cloth all the time and I find them very fair. Balls usually only rattle when I hit them bad. Valleys, by contrast, balls I miss by a diamond drop all the time (which I guess I like when I am the one shooting but hate when I’m sitting or even watching someone else play.
 
GideonF said:
What do you usually play on? I play on 7’ Diamonds with worn cloth all the time and I find them very fair. Balls usually only rattle when I hit them bad. Valleys, by contrast, balls I miss by a diamond drop all the time (which I guess I like when I am the one shooting but hate when I’m sitting or even watching someone else play.
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4.5" pocket valley is what I normally play on now. Before that was gold crowns that were 4.5-4.75" been a long time so I can't recall where they locked 2 balls up. So while I don't mind tight pockets especially on a 9ft the shelves are just stupid imo. When a ball can sit so deep in the pocket that I can't hit it rail first it's a problem. Diamonds prefer the end rail facing hit while everything I've played on before them preferred the side rail skimmed. If one wasn't going to hit the back of the pocket of course. I find diamonds will rattle balls hit firmly with draw down the rail even hit perfectly sometimes. Even testing with 3 balls frozen to the rail they will sometimes rattle a ball when hit hard enough. I've tried to give them chances over the years but I find myself realizing I would just rather stay home then deal with conditions that piss me off.
 
Brandon79ta said:
I agree there. With brand new cloth the 7' diamonds play decent. After the cloth is broken in they are rattle traps. It's all my local place has so I don't even bother anymore. It seems they have taken over most places that have tournaments as the weaker players know they have a better chance of getting a shot against the better players. Same as why most love a faster table vs slow. Slow takes a stroke. Fast is just light pokes.
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Its always easy to tell the players who come from playing on Valleys, they fire everything towards the pocket
(and rail) at warp speed then watch the ball rattle on Diamonds. I even told a weaker player during our match that usually you make more balls on a Diamond hitting them a little softer than you might on a Valley, he continued to fire at the pockets using break speed for some reason. Its not a Diamond thing, its more of a current tighter pocket thing, my 4 3/8" GCI plays very similar to a Diamond, hit the adjacent rail on the way to a pocket with pace and the ball is likely to rattle. The spin that the object ball picks up from contacting the adjacent rail is trying to spin the object ball out of the jaws, its just a good idea to aim for the opposite facing rather than the adjacent rail.
 
fastone371 said:
Its always easy to tell the players who come from playing on Valleys, they fire everything towards the pocket
(and rail) at warp speed then watch the ball rattle on Diamonds. I even told a weaker player during our match that usually you make more balls on a Diamond hitting them a little softer than you might on a Valley, he continued to fire at the pockets using break speed for some reason. Its not a Diamond thing, its more of a current tighter pocket thing, my 4 3/8" GCI plays very similar to a Diamond, hit the adjacent rail on the way to a pocket with pace and the ball is likely to rattle. The spin that the object ball picks up from contacting the adjacent rail is trying to spin the object ball out of the jaws, its just a good idea to aim for the opposite facing rather than the adjacent rail.
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With inside cueing....
A moving ball contacting the pocket face will turn inward/eliminates the hangers a ton.
It's how the pros pocket balls easier with 4'' pockets catching the rail slightly before pocketing.
Makes the pocket larger.
 
fastone371 said:
Its always easy to tell the players who come from playing on Valleys, they fire everything towards the pocket
(and rail) at warp speed then watch the ball rattle on Diamonds. I even told a weaker player during our match that usually you make more balls on a Diamond hitting them a little softer than you might on a Valley, he continued to fire at the pockets using break speed for some reason. Its not a Diamond thing, its more of a current tighter pocket thing, my 4 3/8" GCI plays very similar to a Diamond, hit the adjacent rail on the way to a pocket with pace and the ball is likely to rattle. The spin that the object ball picks up from contacting the adjacent rail is trying to spin the object ball out of the jaws, its just a good idea to aim for the opposite facing rather than the adjacent rail.
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I don't normally fire balls in unless needed. But I expect them to fall when hit well. So I just avoid diamond bar boxes. Like I said before the valley I play on most is 4.5" pocket, same size as the diamonds. Just without the shelf. One thing I have noticed when I have played on them is even the "good" players miss when even a semi firm hit is required. Why? Because they rarely use that stroke as they know the chances of it rattling go way up. But for those that love them more power to ya. At this point it doesn't hurt my feelings to just stay home as I was never a super fan of bar boxes in the first place. Diamond just made them worse.
 
Brandon79ta said:
I don't normally fire balls in unless needed. But I expect them to fall when hit well. So I just avoid diamond bar boxes. Like I said before the valley I play on most is 4.5" pocket, same size as the diamonds. Just without the shelf. One thing I have noticed when I have played on them is even the "good" players miss when even a semi firm hit is required. Why? Because they rarely use that stroke as they know the chances of it rattling go way up. But for those that love them more power to ya. At this point it doesn't hurt my feelings to just stay home as I was never a super fan of bar boxes in the first place. Diamond just made them worse.
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This is an interesting demonstration on how our background effects our perception.

As I play predominantly on Diamonds, when I play on Valleys (about once a week), there are numerous times that I hit a ball badly and think I’ve missed it and it drops. Like I the rail a full diamond away and it still goes. I always think “that ball should never have dropped” because I’m used to Diamonds and would not drop.

But I suppose if I played 90% on Valleys and then played on a Diamond, I might hit a ball that hits a diamond away from the pocket and say “what? That ball should never stay out”. I do have that reaction when I play on 4.25 9’ Diamonds with worn cloth - balls I swear I hit well enough just don’t go.

So our perception of what is the “right way” for a table to play is based on what we are used to.
 
GideonF said:
This is an interesting demonstration on how our background effects our perception.

As I play predominantly on Diamonds, when I play on Valleys (about once a week), there are numerous times that I hit a ball badly and think I’ve missed it and it drops. Like I the rail a full diamond away and it still goes. I always think “that ball should never have dropped” because I’m used to Diamonds and would not drop.

But I suppose if I played 90% on Valleys and then played on a Diamond, I might hit a ball that hits a diamond away from the pocket and say “what? That ball should never stay out”. I do have that reaction when I play on 4.25 9’ Diamonds with worn cloth - balls I swear I hit well enough just don’t go.

So our perception of what is the “right way” for a table to play is based on what we are used to.
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True I learned to play before diamonds became popular. But you are assuming I don't know that a ball that hits the side rail before the pocket shouldn't fall. Of course most valley tables are sloppy. They are bar tables designed to make the games go quicker so the bar makes more money. I'm talking about balls that should fall on good pool tables that do not on diamonds. I grew up playing on 9ft gold crowns not bar boxes. Heck I've played on a 5x10 snooker table with pool balls before, you wanna talk about tight pockets that's about as rough as it gets. Even greats like Mike Sigel have openly said they do not like how diamond tables play. They are great tables for what they were seemingly designed for, tournament use. On new slick cloth they play tight but fair.

I'm no history buff so I would be interested if anyone knows of any other pool table that had shelves like a diamond before diamond come along? As I've never seen or heard of one.
 
Brandon79ta said:
True I learned to play before diamonds became popular. But you are assuming I don't know that a ball that hits the side rail before the pocket shouldn't fall. Of course most valley tables are sloppy. They are bar tables designed to make the games go quicker so the bar makes more money. I'm talking about balls that should fall on good pool tables that do not on diamonds. I grew up playing on 9ft gold crowns not bar boxes. Heck I've played on a 5x10 snooker table with pool balls before, you wanna talk about tight pockets that's about as rough as it gets. Even greats like Mike Sigel have openly said they do not like how diamond tables play. They are great tables for what they were seemingly designed for, tournament use. On new slick cloth they play tight but fair.

I'm no history buff so I would be interested if anyone knows of any other pool table that had shelves like a diamond before diamond come along? As I've never seen or heard of one.
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The WPA has regulations on pocket dimensions, I believe Diamond pockets fit those dimensions. I don't know what the other manufacturers are doing (Rasson, Brunswick, Predator, etc) as far as pocket dimensions but for me personally the last table I would want to use for my standard would be a Valley since they are designed to be easy to pocket balls on. The majority of tournaments in our area are on Diamonds, its what the players want. For me personally its easier to go from a Diamond to a Valley than it is to go from a Valley to a Diamond. If I am playing in a tournament I don't want to have to face tough, unfamiliar pockets because I am used to easy pockets. Gold Crowns had 5" or even bigger pockets.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I'll agree with you there. The "pro-cut" pocket with the slate shelves on a 7' Diamond is a really nice pocket setup. Tight, but not stupid. The same size pocket on the 9' Diamond is plain stupid with its mile deep shelf.
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Translation- “I can’t adjust for whatever reason, so I’ll condemn”
 
fastone371 said:
The WPA has regulations on pocket dimensions, I believe Diamond pockets fit those dimensions. I don't know what the other manufacturers are doing (Rasson, Brunswick, Predator, etc) as far as pocket dimensions but for me personally the last table I would want to use for my standard would be a Valley since they are designed to be easy to pocket balls on. The majority of tournaments in our area are on Diamonds, its what the players want. For me personally its easier to go from a Diamond to a Valley than it is to go from a Valley to a Diamond. If I am playing in a tournament I don't want to have to face tough, unfamiliar pockets because I am used to easy pockets. Gold Crowns had 5" or even bigger pockets.
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The gold crowns I learned on were considered 4.75" I believe. They locked 2 balls up towards the back of the rail facing just barely still on the slate, it's been 20+ years so I can't exactly go measure as that room is long gone. But you are correct in that everything has went diamond sadly. Which is why it's been years since I've played in a tournament. I refuse to play on/in conditions I hate anymore. I'm not a teenager trying to make spending money off tournaments anymore so why play on something that turns the game from enjoyable to frustration?

Frosty said:
Translation- “I can’t adjust for whatever reason, so I’ll condemn”
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Yup it's not that tables have played basically one way for the last what 200 years until diamond come along. I never said I can't play on them. I just choose not to. It's like playing on a table with heated slate, new 860 simonis, and freshly polished balls vs an unlevel dirty wool blanket with an old oversized cue ball. I can play on both, and have plenty, but I'd rather not play on the trash anymore. One man's trash is another man's treasure they say. Many love diamonds. More power to them.
 
Brandon79ta said:
Yup it's not that tables have played basically one way for the last what 200 years until diamond come along. I never said I can't play on them. I just choose not to. It's like playing on a table with heated slate, new 860 simonis, and freshly polished balls vs an unlevel dirty wool blanket with an old oversized cue ball. I can play on both, and have plenty, but I'd rather not play on the trash anymore. One man's trash is another man's treasure they say. Many love diamonds. More power to them.
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I quoted another members post, not yours, so I’m not quite sure why you quoted mine.
He has a history of crying enough tears about Diamonds to fill a truck full of 55 gallon drums.

What you call trash is now the standard of the industry. Do they play differently? Most certainly they do. The hallmark of a truly good player is one that can adapt. To get on a Diamond and continually try to play the same way as you would on a Gold Crown is the same as that old adage of what is the definition of insanity, to do the same thing over and over, yet somehow expecting a different result.
 
I learned on Valley tables (and Brunswick 9' tables). Diamonds came to my area pretty late.
Playing on the Diamonds did take a bit of adjustment since the pockets are not as forgiving, but on the plus side, they rails are FAR more predictable and consistent. No more guessing where the cue ball will end up or having to adjust to different cushion rebound, weird cloth, etc.
I never fell into the trap of crying about equipment, one of the people who taught me always like to say "you're both playing on the same table". The one who adjusts and plays smarter is going to have an edge. The crybaby's game is going to suffer and they'll be easier to defeat.
 
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