Read my post to Justin. When someone posts their dream cue, don't critique it. Say "nice cue". Let him have his moment.
Nice cue, Ched. Hope you enjoy it. I've always loved my Joss cues that I've owned.
Dan Janes Cue
- Thread starter Ched
- Start date
Read my post to Justin. When someone posts their dream cue, don't critique it. Say "nice cue". Let him have his moment.
Nice cue, Ched. Hope you enjoy it. I've always loved my Joss cues that I've owned.
Read the numerous posts between me and Ched in the past.
I have been "with him" on this project all along and encouraged him to go for the Joss.
We have discussed the cue at length already.
Ched has invited open discussion about this cue all along.
I was the one who suggested the dashed rings.
I think if Ched has a problem with what I have to say he'll let me know. :smile:
You will also note that earlier in this thread I did just say it was nice and to enjoy it. :smile:
As far as further commenting on this cue and modern Joss cues in general...I will actually be expounding later when I have time, right here in this thread. I think it's a great opportunity for discussion. So...
.
Read the numerous posts between me and Ched in the past.
I have been "with him" on this project all along and encouraged him to go for the Joss.
We have discussed the cue at length already.
Ched has invited open discussion about this cue all along.
I was the one who suggested the dashed rings.
I think if Ched has a problem with what I have to say he'll let me know. :smile:
You will also note that earlier in this thread I did just say it was nice and to enjoy it. :smile:
As far as further commenting on this cue and modern Joss cues in general...I will actually be expounding later when I have time, right here in this thread. I think it's a great opportunity for discussion. So...
.
I guess I misunderstood the statement "I'm not a big fan of the stain" as being a negative. I didn't realize it's a positive
With that, I'm not a big fan of your posting style.
I have more time now.
I have often encouraged people to look at Joss cues and consider them. I have also encouraged people to talk to Dan Janes and consider his custom work.
Why? I think Joss is a great value, and I think Janes is a great custom cue maker.
There is a lot of history behind these cues, a lot of development, a lot of expertise and craftsmanship.
I think Ched's cue is a great example of all of that. Stylistically you can see from a mile away it is a Joss. They haven't imitated anybody, they haven't really followed anybody else's idea of style trends. A Joss looks like a Joss. I would like to talk a little about what exactly that means to me, not just as far as how the cue looks, but how it is put together.
So, the same can be said of construction. A Joss is built like a Joss. There are numerous ways to assemble a cue. Janes and Stroud started building them very much like George Balabushka did. They used an A joint. In fact George had some input in their early days as I understand it. Fast forward a few decades and we are looking at a cue with a stepped and threaded core that runs from the butt cap to the joint collar. The butt cap and joint collar are threaded on and the butt sleeve, handle, and forearm are compressed between those two threaded parts. This cue is "short splice" forearm but it does not have an A joint.
People brag about "one piece" feeling, the benefit of full splice being that feeling. Well folks, when you play with a modern Joss there is the shaft and the handle (core) screwed together. Everything else on the butt is sleeved over the core.
That stepped core is what Dan Janes calls the most expensive piece of wood in his shop. I gather that refers to the many years of development that culminated in it.
The points on the modern Joss cue are well done IMHO. They are quite different from what many people are used to seeing. What I am speaking of is the space between them at the wrap or A joint. The gap is larger than most. This seems to be where Dan Janes settled on what he likes. It is not to everybody's taste, but I think we can now say after so many years, it is a Joss design element.
Janes also often stains the forearm. And he typically does not use birdseye anymore. I once heard he commented it was "overdone" for too many years. He does seem to commonly use a maple with a nice curl or stripe to it...but the grain is straight...interesting that straight grain is what George preferred and was apparently vocal about it. A stain helps bring out the figure and give some visual tone. Some will like it, some will not.
And a note about construction heritage. The shafts from this cue will screw perfectly onto my old block letter. I promise. Dan Janes standardized this joint for Joss very early, maybe as early as 1969.
Lastly the finish. Flawless. That's all I can say.
About Ched's cue:
Personally, I love the dashed ring choice. It is a variation on the ring design of the last block letter Joss cues. Classic look. In this case those dashes happen to match the plain maple veneers on the points. Dan chose those rings according to Ched. Was that a stylistic accident? I doubt it. Ched left some design parameters up to Dan, which is smart I think. If you want a cue made by an artist but dictate every detail then you lose the opportunity to get some of what that artists sees. I understand if you want every detail the way you like as well, but there is something to be said for letting the cuemaker decide. He's made more cues than you will ever hold in your lifetime.
The points are sharp. You can have it either way with Joss. Most of the Joss customs are sharp points, and most of the Joss production cues are rounded. I happen to like sharp points. It is classic or "old school" and I am glad Joss still does it. And by the way, look close at those points and veneers and you will see they are pretty darn nicely done.
The butt sleeve design and logo line up perfectly with the points as they should on any quality cue made with attention to detail. Again, like the points and veneers, pretty darn well executed as well. And the same forearm stain is reflected in the maple rings of the butt sleeve. And that logo looks like the old block letter logo...I really dig that.
I want you to look at the wood. Look at that piece of wood in the forearm. Then look at this post from the gallery: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=453148
Apparently, Janes does indeed have such wood. Very often people only associate such wood with great customs from great makers...well folks, that is what this cue is.
Finally the shafts. One good old school maple...the other a high performance LD shaft. How long ago was Janes working on LD? That was commented about earlier in this thread. OK, let's be serious. It was the 1970's when he was using short ferrules for a while and on request. You don't see them much, you usually see the ivory ferrules like on my old block letter. But I promise he did it, and for exactly the reason it is done today.
Dan Janes has a lot more invested in cue engineering and design than many understand or appreciate. And a heck of a lot more than just money. It's his life, his career, his reputation, his name, and his family business. And he has done a lot more engineering and design than many know. He just has not put it out there and marketed himself that way. Maybe that's why Joss is still a custom shop while also producing lines of cues for catalogs and distributors. Beyond that Janes/Joss has given a lot back to the community by sponsoring many tournaments and events over the decades...far too many to list.
This cue:
Hall of Fame maker, signed.
WOOD! Seriously nice piece of wood there.
Classic Joss design elements, expertly and cleanly executed
Advanced construction techniques unique to Joss
Unmistakably a Joss
AND- Delivered ahead of schedule.
.
I have often encouraged people to look at Joss cues and consider them. I have also encouraged people to talk to Dan Janes and consider his custom work.
Why? I think Joss is a great value, and I think Janes is a great custom cue maker.
There is a lot of history behind these cues, a lot of development, a lot of expertise and craftsmanship.
I think Ched's cue is a great example of all of that. Stylistically you can see from a mile away it is a Joss. They haven't imitated anybody, they haven't really followed anybody else's idea of style trends. A Joss looks like a Joss. I would like to talk a little about what exactly that means to me, not just as far as how the cue looks, but how it is put together.
So, the same can be said of construction. A Joss is built like a Joss. There are numerous ways to assemble a cue. Janes and Stroud started building them very much like George Balabushka did. They used an A joint. In fact George had some input in their early days as I understand it. Fast forward a few decades and we are looking at a cue with a stepped and threaded core that runs from the butt cap to the joint collar. The butt cap and joint collar are threaded on and the butt sleeve, handle, and forearm are compressed between those two threaded parts. This cue is "short splice" forearm but it does not have an A joint.
People brag about "one piece" feeling, the benefit of full splice being that feeling. Well folks, when you play with a modern Joss there is the shaft and the handle (core) screwed together. Everything else on the butt is sleeved over the core.
That stepped core is what Dan Janes calls the most expensive piece of wood in his shop. I gather that refers to the many years of development that culminated in it.
The points on the modern Joss cue are well done IMHO. They are quite different from what many people are used to seeing. What I am speaking of is the space between them at the wrap or A joint. The gap is larger than most. This seems to be where Dan Janes settled on what he likes. It is not to everybody's taste, but I think we can now say after so many years, it is a Joss design element.
Janes also often stains the forearm. And he typically does not use birdseye anymore. I once heard he commented it was "overdone" for too many years. He does seem to commonly use a maple with a nice curl or stripe to it...but the grain is straight...interesting that straight grain is what George preferred and was apparently vocal about it. A stain helps bring out the figure and give some visual tone. Some will like it, some will not.
And a note about construction heritage. The shafts from this cue will screw perfectly onto my old block letter. I promise. Dan Janes standardized this joint for Joss very early, maybe as early as 1969.
Lastly the finish. Flawless. That's all I can say.
About Ched's cue:
Personally, I love the dashed ring choice. It is a variation on the ring design of the last block letter Joss cues. Classic look. In this case those dashes happen to match the plain maple veneers on the points. Dan chose those rings according to Ched. Was that a stylistic accident? I doubt it. Ched left some design parameters up to Dan, which is smart I think. If you want a cue made by an artist but dictate every detail then you lose the opportunity to get some of what that artists sees. I understand if you want every detail the way you like as well, but there is something to be said for letting the cuemaker decide. He's made more cues than you will ever hold in your lifetime.
The points are sharp. You can have it either way with Joss. Most of the Joss customs are sharp points, and most of the Joss production cues are rounded. I happen to like sharp points. It is classic or "old school" and I am glad Joss still does it. And by the way, look close at those points and veneers and you will see they are pretty darn nicely done.
The butt sleeve design and logo line up perfectly with the points as they should on any quality cue made with attention to detail. Again, like the points and veneers, pretty darn well executed as well. And the same forearm stain is reflected in the maple rings of the butt sleeve. And that logo looks like the old block letter logo...I really dig that.
I want you to look at the wood. Look at that piece of wood in the forearm. Then look at this post from the gallery: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=453148
Apparently, Janes does indeed have such wood. Very often people only associate such wood with great customs from great makers...well folks, that is what this cue is.
Finally the shafts. One good old school maple...the other a high performance LD shaft. How long ago was Janes working on LD? That was commented about earlier in this thread. OK, let's be serious. It was the 1970's when he was using short ferrules for a while and on request. You don't see them much, you usually see the ivory ferrules like on my old block letter. But I promise he did it, and for exactly the reason it is done today.
Dan Janes has a lot more invested in cue engineering and design than many understand or appreciate. And a heck of a lot more than just money. It's his life, his career, his reputation, his name, and his family business. And he has done a lot more engineering and design than many know. He just has not put it out there and marketed himself that way. Maybe that's why Joss is still a custom shop while also producing lines of cues for catalogs and distributors. Beyond that Janes/Joss has given a lot back to the community by sponsoring many tournaments and events over the decades...far too many to list.
This cue:
Hall of Fame maker, signed.
WOOD! Seriously nice piece of wood there.
Classic Joss design elements, expertly and cleanly executed
Advanced construction techniques unique to Joss
Unmistakably a Joss
AND- Delivered ahead of schedule.
.
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As I have mentioned before, I am back in the game 3 years after a 43 year layoff. Things had changed in that time. I settled on a production Joss as my player. Love it.
I designed a cue with Dan at this years Expo which I should receive in October. I am giving him a lot of leeway as to the design. I am doing this out of respect for his years of service to the billiards industry and his extensive knowledge.
It will be unstained curley maple. The points will be sharp with four colors. I left the order of the colors up to him. The inlays will be cut diamonds and dots. I am also leaving the layout of the inlays up to him. Linen wrap antiqued white/green.
He is a gentleman to deal with. I told him I could play with my current production cue forever and be perfectly happy and I wanted to build a cue for the aesthetics. If it hits like my current Joss I will be thrilled. He took exception to me calling it a production cue. He personally oversees everything that gets a Joss logo. He told me that it would be his pleasure to sign and date the new cue. Great value from a great cue builder and gentleman.
I understand. The term "production" as well as the term "custom" are tossed around a lot and mean different things to different people. They are often argued about here in these forums.
When the term "production" is used I think sometime people envision a factory or something.
The term is commonly used when referring to the various Joss "lines".
On their own web site they have three categories.
1) The "current line"
2) Custom
3) Handmade
and then also break cues and extensions.
There are also various lines made for distributors at different times that may not be on the Joss web site. Some of those old lines can be found in their archives.
The "current line" is what people generally mean when they refer to the production cues. Why? obviously "production line" is the term they are thinking of.
In any case. I certainly mean no disrespect to Mr Janes. I am just using common terminology.
According to their web site:
"Joss Cues has been in business since 1968.
We are a maker of fine handcrafted custom cues. Dan Janes the originator is a master cue maker and has been president of the American Cue Makers Association."
"fine handcrafted custom cues" I like that.
.
Umm, I never knew he was making extensions, going to order one now. Even tho I been thinking about getting one for a while, now I rather have one by the place that made my cue.I understand. The term "production" as well as the term "custom" are tossed around a lot and mean different things to different people. They are often argued about here in these forums.
When the term "production" is used I think sometime people envision a factory or something.
The term is commonly used when referring to the various Joss "lines".
On their own web site they have three categories.
1) The "current line"
2) Custom
3) Handmade
and then also break cues and extensions.
There are also various lines made for distributors at different times that may not be on the Joss web site. Some of those old lines can be found in their archives.
The "current line" is what people generally mean when they refer to the production cues. Why? obviously "production line" is the term they are thinking of.
In any case. I certainly mean no disrespect to Mr Janes. I am just using common terminology.
According to their web site:
"Joss Cues has been in business since 1968.
We are a maker of fine handcrafted custom cues. Dan Janes the originator is a master cue maker and has been president of the American Cue Makers Association."
"fine handcrafted custom cues" I like that.
.
Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk
8 inch and 10 inch
And I bet if you want custom they will make that too.
https://josscues.com/cues/joss-cue-extension/
.
There are two types. Depending on the bumper. My wife has an older Joss that has a screw in the bumper. So neither extension will work.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Great looking cue!
Sorry for not getting back here sooner - and I wanted to mention a few things.
1. Thank you Shawn and the few others who mentioned the "if you can't say something nice ... " concept, and I do try to conduct myself that way. A couple exceptions here though:
a.) Justin - I've seen enough of his posts to get a general idea of who he is - and I don't think there was any ill intent there. He may be on the young side, idk - but I didn't really take offense.
b.) Doc: Yea, as he pointed out - Chopdoc and I have become pretty good friends IMO (he took me under his wing right off the bat) - and I often go to him either here on the boards or in PM when I have a question, or I'm in search of some input. He's been with me from day one when I first considered getting a custom hand made cue. (even before I ordered it.) Since Paul Mottey had retired - there was never any question - it was going to be a Joss. (fell in love with the hit many years ago) I've always asked Doc to be brutally honest with me, and he has been completely upfront about his own personal tastes. In fact - Doc would be welcome in my home if he were to ever visit PA. (as well as access to any and all my pool supplies)
2. Not everyone is going to like the same things - and it'd be a pretty boring world if we did. In general, so long as someone's not saying "your taste is crap", I'm good. Water off a duck's back and all.
3. Now to be honest, Doc is the one who suggested or mentioned the stitched rings. I'm not sure if Dan read it here (he does visit the forum from time to time) - or if I mentioned it in passing. When I first spoke with Dan - I called the Joss company, and the man himself answered. He was and has been very very generous with his valuable time. Originally I ordered the OP37-C18 At the very beginning I said I really liked that design, and I wanted sharp points in something along the same line. Dan questioned me about a few things - and I mentioned some of the things I like about cues, and some I don't. I didn't specify a lot though, and told him to do his artist/craftsman thing. About 1/2 way through I added a bit more to the budget, and he also consulted his son about the cue. Early on he asked about leaving the wood unstained, and I said I liked the darker stuff, but told him to do what he thought best. Now - it is a bit lighter than the C-18, but Dan picked me out a piece of "extreme curly maple", and some specially processed ebony. I think if he'd have gone darker it would have lost some of its impact. The ebony-natural-ebony-natural veneers are simply AMAZING - and imho a better match for this cue than colors would have been. Oh - and actually? This all started when I asked Dan if he'd sign a cue for me. One thing led to another - we BS'ed about old friends, sports, and just general crap. The pics on page one are the end result.
4. I don't really know a lot about the LD stuff. I have 3 OB shafts, a Katana, a Pure X HTX, and the Pechauer and Lucasi. I tried a Predator 2nd gen 314, but don't own one. I honestly think the Joss HP hits as well or better than any of them. When I first talked to Dan about it, I was leaning toward the splice version, but he seemed to lean toward the sold version - I went with his inclination. Now, I don't have a fancy machine like Mr. Meucci does, but just shooting straight down the table with multiple speeds and various degrees of english - yea - I'll take the Joss HP every time. It's taken me a few months to get used to this LD stuff - because I'm old school from back in the early - mid 70's where you learned to compensate for deflection. But I figure if I can pick up a cue again at 60 years old, I can learn to deal with the current climate.
Couple other things - Hey philly :thumbup: hope you like yours as much as I like mine - shoot me/us a pic or two when you get it. (philly is another good friend IMO and we spoke also about ordering from Dan) Also since I'm shouting out: Hey to Hang the Nine, Mr. Wilson, Nine corner, beneath the sur, Kickin Chicken, and a few of you others that have made me feel so much at home here - I really appreciate it.
Another item - the C-18 will remain my daily player for league and such - and the new hand made one will get used on special occasions such as going out with friends (who can watch it when I have to hit the head), or in private places I feel at home.
Anyway - too late to make a long story short - but I do appreciate all the feedback on this thread and my new baby. Cheers.
1. Thank you Shawn and the few others who mentioned the "if you can't say something nice ... " concept, and I do try to conduct myself that way. A couple exceptions here though:
a.) Justin - I've seen enough of his posts to get a general idea of who he is - and I don't think there was any ill intent there. He may be on the young side, idk - but I didn't really take offense.
b.) Doc: Yea, as he pointed out - Chopdoc and I have become pretty good friends IMO (he took me under his wing right off the bat) - and I often go to him either here on the boards or in PM when I have a question, or I'm in search of some input. He's been with me from day one when I first considered getting a custom hand made cue. (even before I ordered it.) Since Paul Mottey had retired - there was never any question - it was going to be a Joss. (fell in love with the hit many years ago) I've always asked Doc to be brutally honest with me, and he has been completely upfront about his own personal tastes. In fact - Doc would be welcome in my home if he were to ever visit PA. (as well as access to any and all my pool supplies)
2. Not everyone is going to like the same things - and it'd be a pretty boring world if we did. In general, so long as someone's not saying "your taste is crap", I'm good. Water off a duck's back and all.
3. Now to be honest, Doc is the one who suggested or mentioned the stitched rings. I'm not sure if Dan read it here (he does visit the forum from time to time) - or if I mentioned it in passing. When I first spoke with Dan - I called the Joss company, and the man himself answered. He was and has been very very generous with his valuable time. Originally I ordered the OP37-C18 At the very beginning I said I really liked that design, and I wanted sharp points in something along the same line. Dan questioned me about a few things - and I mentioned some of the things I like about cues, and some I don't. I didn't specify a lot though, and told him to do his artist/craftsman thing. About 1/2 way through I added a bit more to the budget, and he also consulted his son about the cue. Early on he asked about leaving the wood unstained, and I said I liked the darker stuff, but told him to do what he thought best. Now - it is a bit lighter than the C-18, but Dan picked me out a piece of "extreme curly maple", and some specially processed ebony. I think if he'd have gone darker it would have lost some of its impact. The ebony-natural-ebony-natural veneers are simply AMAZING - and imho a better match for this cue than colors would have been. Oh - and actually? This all started when I asked Dan if he'd sign a cue for me. One thing led to another - we BS'ed about old friends, sports, and just general crap. The pics on page one are the end result.
4. I don't really know a lot about the LD stuff. I have 3 OB shafts, a Katana, a Pure X HTX, and the Pechauer and Lucasi. I tried a Predator 2nd gen 314, but don't own one. I honestly think the Joss HP hits as well or better than any of them. When I first talked to Dan about it, I was leaning toward the splice version, but he seemed to lean toward the sold version - I went with his inclination. Now, I don't have a fancy machine like Mr. Meucci does, but just shooting straight down the table with multiple speeds and various degrees of english - yea - I'll take the Joss HP every time. It's taken me a few months to get used to this LD stuff - because I'm old school from back in the early - mid 70's where you learned to compensate for deflection. But I figure if I can pick up a cue again at 60 years old, I can learn to deal with the current climate.
Couple other things - Hey philly :thumbup: hope you like yours as much as I like mine - shoot me/us a pic or two when you get it. (philly is another good friend IMO and we spoke also about ordering from Dan) Also since I'm shouting out: Hey to Hang the Nine, Mr. Wilson, Nine corner, beneath the sur, Kickin Chicken, and a few of you others that have made me feel so much at home here - I really appreciate it.
Another item - the C-18 will remain my daily player for league and such - and the new hand made one will get used on special occasions such as going out with friends (who can watch it when I have to hit the head), or in private places I feel at home.
Anyway - too late to make a long story short - but I do appreciate all the feedback on this thread and my new baby. Cheers.
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I like the concept of giving the cue maker some ideas & then letting them run with it & giving back some of there ideas.
I have 4 cues on order from 4 different cue makers that I'll be getting in hand over the next calendar year. One cue I gave 99% of ideas into the cue & asked the maker to just come up with the rings on his own that he thinks would work best. Another I gave a Rounceville blank too & just told him the specs & inlays I wanted & he made suggestions I agreed to from there. The 3rd maker we discussed all ideas together & that's what's getting done. The last cue I just gave the maker the woods, measurement specs & inlays materials I wanted in the cue & then gave him free reign on design, points, inlay style, veneers & rings, so I won't know what he decided until I go pick up the cue, so going to be a total surprise.
I have 4 cues on order from 4 different cue makers that I'll be getting in hand over the next calendar year. One cue I gave 99% of ideas into the cue & asked the maker to just come up with the rings on his own that he thinks would work best. Another I gave a Rounceville blank too & just told him the specs & inlays I wanted & he made suggestions I agreed to from there. The 3rd maker we discussed all ideas together & that's what's getting done. The last cue I just gave the maker the woods, measurement specs & inlays materials I wanted in the cue & then gave him free reign on design, points, inlay style, veneers & rings, so I won't know what he decided until I go pick up the cue, so going to be a total surprise.
Looking forward to seeing some pictures as you get them.