Decelerating

[sparkle84]

I think you'd better look at that image again. The measles ball is the CB. The white ball is where the CB ended up after rebounding off the rail.
The measles ball can't follow the tangent line unless sliding upon contact with the 5. The natural rolling CB should rebound straight off the rail.
A rolling CB in this situation is a natural shot. Hitting middle CB with maximum right english deflects the CB and it fights natural CB roll.

EDIT :
SPARKIE... I set up the balls as in the image and I tried 10 shots your way.... and 10 my way. When you mentioned the
tangent line, I thought you were sending your CB down the stun line, and I now realize you weren't doing that.

All 20 shots worked... although your way actually came down table nearer to the rail than my way. My "rolling CB" did
need some top right to get to center table, but may be preferable if the CB needs more angle off a rail for shape.




.

I'll take one more stab at explaining this. I am well aware of which ball is the CB.
It makes virtually no difference where the CB is struck on either the vertical or horizontal axis. When the CB strikes the object ball it will come off the OB along the tangent line. That's Pool 101. As the CB proceeds along the TL it may or may not deviate from that path. When said deviation occurs, it is speed dependent. Stun &/or forward roll causes no deviation. Topspin cause curve in the same direction as the OB was cut and backspin in the opposite direction. Every shot, no matter how it's hit, unless it hits something to halt its progress, eventually turns into a naturally rolling ball. It should be evident that a naturally rolling ball will not curve off its natural path.
Sidespin is irrelevant until the CB contacts a rail, with the following caveat. If the CB is going very slowly, with a ton of spin, it will pull slightly in the direction of the spin.
So with the shot in question here, unless it's hit very softly with topspin, it will stay on the TL till it hits the rail.
To say that the CB can't or won't follow the TL unless it's sliding is unequivocally false.
The only way to cause a bit of deviation in where contact with the short rail occurs, is to hit softly with good draw or follow, or to overcut the OB into the far right side of the pocket. (That's one big problem with examples such as this. With the ball so close and directly out from the middle of the pocket, how much the ball is cut will dramaticly affect both direction and speed.
Whenever I comment on these things I always base my analysis on the OB going in the center of the pocket. In this case noone should have any trouble determining where on the rail the tangent line brings you. In describing how to shoot this shot you'll note I said to hit it "firmly" with middle right. In which case there is no question the CB will continue on the TL until contacting the rail. Given that the angle is 35-40 degrees, I'd think most would agree that you need a lot of right to come straight back up table.
All that aside, my main reason for the post, was to clarify that your description of reverse had nothing to do with Fran's intended meaning, and as such, was inaccurate and confusing (to some) information. That's why I said your statement was a misrepresentation.

 

[sparkle84]

You got it Ralph!

And i'm not sure why I am being attacked here. I have a problem with decelerating and thought I would use this particular shot to see if anybody could figure out why and/or offer some suggestions.

Sparkle84 sort of opened my eyes when he mentioned uncertainty just as I pulled the trigger.

Then again, after 15 years of being attacked I should be used to it.

r/DCP

Dr Cue. Maybe I can give you a little insight into why people sometimes attack you.
Even Fran got on you a little, which isn't her usual MO but I understand her frustration. Not strictly because of you but more due to the overall situation on this forum.
Anyway, I consider you an asset here because there's not a lot of new posts on here and you're someone that keeps things new and interesting.
Anyway, I think what some people don't like is that some of your questions, in their opinion, are things that you could figure out on your own, given a little work.
To a certain extent, they're right. Much of the learning in this game is simply getting on the table and trying different things until something works.
And as I've said, there's plenty of info out there to help. But putting in the time and experimenting on your own are absolutely necessary.
But whatever your reasons for your questions, I for one, respect them and will do what I can to help. Maybe you don't have as much time or access to a table or playing partners as some of us might.
One thing that a lot of people don't understand about this game is that there's a certain way that certain shots need to be hit to be successful. It's a feel thing and you need to keep at it until one time something just clicks on a certain shot and you go, aha, that's how that stroke feels when executed correctly. That doesn't mean you can now do it every time but at least you know what it feels like and will be easier to do in the future.
Knowing how the balls work is essential but its not the whole story. Take your shot as an example. When I say hit it firmly with a lot of middle right, essentially I'm correct, but it's not the complete story. You need to find the sweet spot that works for you. You'll know it when you feel it, but unless you put in the time, you might never get it.

 

[Ralph Kramden]

To say that the CB can't or won't follow the TL unless it's sliding is unequivocally false.
The only way to cause a bit of deviation in where contact with the short rail occurs, is to hit softly with good draw or follow, or to overcut the OB into the far right side of the pocket.

Use a numbered ball for the CB... let's say the 2 ball. Put the number 2 on top. The 2 on
the bottom is on the table. Hit the 2 ball with maximum sidespin... no top or reverse spin.

The 2 on the top.. stays on top. The ball goes forward by sliding on the bottom number 2.
It wiil stay on the OB stun line unless it's hit with forward or reverse to change it's course.

Just try to stay on the tangent (stun line) without the CB sliding... Not unequivocally false.

 

[FranCrimi]

Use a numbered ball for the CB... let's say the 2 ball. Put the number 2 on top. The 2 on
the bottom is on the table. Hit the 2 ball with maximum sidespin... no top or reverse spin.

The 2 on the top.. stays on top. The ball goes forward by sliding on the bottom number 2.
It wiil stay on the OB stun line unless it's hit with forward or reverse to change it's course.
Just try to stay on the tangent (stun line) without the CB sliding... Not unequivocally false.

Once again you are attaching the wrong definition to the word 'reverse.' When you hit a ball with reverse, it means that you are applying side spin to the cue ball on the opposite side of the natural angle of the shot. I'm sure that's not what you meant when you used the word 'reverse' in your post here. You were referring to back spin. Even after Sparkle took the time to write a post to explain this to you, you made the exact same error again.

 

[Ralph Kramden]

Once again you are attaching the wrong definition to the word 'reverse.' When you hit a ball with reverse, it means that you are applying side spin to the cue ball on the opposite side of the natural angle of the shot. I'm sure that's not what you meant when you used the word 'reverse' in your post here. You were referring to back spin. Even after Sparkle took the time to write a post to explain this to you, you made the exact same error again.

Thanks for your clarification. When I want the ball to back up, I'll use reverse spin.
When I want the CB to come off the rail other than a natural angle, I use side spin.

The side spin I use could be called running spin, or it could be called hold up spin,
depending on the shot. I feel like Donald Trump. I'd better use the correct wording.

sparkie said my statement, about how the CB won't follow the TL unless it's sliding
was false... He's partially correct.. The CB will always start down the tangent line.

How soon the CB will deviate from the TL will differ unless it's sliding before it rolls.
_______________________

Edit: I'm not an instructor.. My car says R for reverse
.

 

[FranCrimi]

Thanks for your clarification. When I want the ball to back up, I'll use reverse spin.
When I want the CB to come off the rail other than a natural angle, I use side spin.

The side spin I use could be called running spin, or it could be called hold up spin,
depending on the shot. I feel like Donald Trump. I'd better use the correct wording.

sparkie said my statement, about how the CB won't follow the TL unless it's sliding
was false... He's partially correct.. The CB will always start down the tangent line.

How soon the CB will deviate from the TL will differ unless it's sliding before it rolls.
_______________________

Edit: I'm not an instructor.. My car says R for reverse
.

So by attaching your own definitions to established pool terms, do you think that you will be able to have a meaningful conversation when everyone else is attaching a different definition to those same terms?

By the way, what does the word 'English' in pool mean to you? Is it side spin only? Is it all-inclusive spin, including top and back spin?

 

[Ralph Kramden]

So by attaching your own definitions to established pool terms, do you think that you will be able to have a meaningful conversation when no one understands what you mean? By the way, what does the word 'English' in pool mean to you?

In established pool terms it means english ... not English

.

 

[FranCrimi]

In established pool terms it means english ... not English

.

What kind of spin does that mean to you?

Don't answer the question because it's a trap. If you say it means side spin, then I would ask you why you misunderstood when I wrote "Reverse English" In a previous post. If you say it's all-encompassing, including top spin and back spin, then I would respond that it's not the correct established definition of that pool term. English is side spin.

My point is that putting your opinion out there for everyone to see, is a responsibility. Doing it carelessly can hurt other players seeking advice. This is the Ask the Instructor Forum. If you or anyone jumps in with some wacky stuff, you're going to get called on it.

 

[Ralph Kramden]

What kind of spin does that mean to you?

If you asked what I used.... I would say...
But I say reverse.. instead of back spin

.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... But I say reverse.. instead of back spin ...

Because "reverse" is used by many authors and players to describe a kind of side spin, to use "reverse" to mean "back spin" or "draw" will be confusing. If your goal is to communicate clearly, I urge you to no longer say "reverse" for draw/back spin.

 

[sparkle84]

OMG, what did I start here. I came to this thread and 5 minutes later was Lmao.
There's probably some total beginners following this so in order that they'll understand we probably should explain (if they haven't already figured it out) that the "reverse" that most of us are referring to is what is commonly called "inside english" today.
I don't know exactly when this inside/outside stuff came about but when I started those terms did not exist. It was either natural/running or reverse.
I happened to check Ralph's profile and found that he's older than I am so I would think he'd be familiar with those terms. But perhaps he started playing recently or terminology was different where he came from.
Anyway, thanks to Dr Cue its been a fun thread. What's your next question so we can start up again.

 

[FranCrimi]

OMG, what did I start here. I came to this thread and 5 minutes later was Lmao.
There's probably some total beginners following this so in order that they'll understand we probably should explain (if they haven't already figured it out) that the "reverse" that most of us are referring to is what is commonly called "inside english" today.
I don't know exactly when this inside/outside stuff came about but when I started those terms did not exist. It was either natural/running or reverse.
I happened to check Ralph's profile and found that he's older than I am so I would think he'd be familiar with those terms. But perhaps he started playing recently or terminology was different where he came from.
Anyway, thanks to Dr Cue its been a fun thread. What's your next question so we can start up again.

Reverse isn't always inside. Not a good idea to define reverse as inside. So before you continue your "Lmao," don't assume that everyone who uses the term 'inside' means reverse. I don't have any problem with people who are cocky. But if you're going to be cocky, you'd better have your facts straight.

 

[bbb]

Reverse isn't always inside. Not a good idea to define reverse as inside. So before you continue your "Lmao," don't assume that everyone who uses the term 'inside' means reverse. I don't have any problem with people who are cocky. But if you're going to be cocky, you'd better have your facts straight.

could you give an example when reverse is not inside
thanks fran

 

[Bob Jewett]

could you give an example when reverse is not inside
thanks fran

An object ball is just up (towards the head spot) from the foot spot. The cue ball is on the head spot. Shoot the object ball into a foot pocket with outside stun. The cue ball will hit on the long rail on the other side of the table just above the corner pocket. If you use outside side spin on the shot, it will be reverse on the long rail and will remain reverse on the short rail.

Inside/outside refers only to spin relative to the contact on the object ball. Running/reverse refers to how side spin rubs on the cushion. Or at least that's the way most seem to use the terms.

 

[bbb]

An object ball is just up (towards the head spot) from the foot spot. The cue ball is on the head spot. Shoot the object ball into a foot pocket with outside stun. The cue ball will hit on the long rail on the other side of the table just above the corner pocket. If you use outside side spin on the shot, it will be reverse on the long rail and will remain reverse on the short rail.

Inside/outside refers only to spin relative to the contact on the object ball. Running/reverse refers to how side spin rubs on the cushion. Or at least that's the way most seem to use the terms.

thats becaus heading toward the rail after contact with the object ball
the direction of spin is inside spin relative to the direction the cue ball is heading toward the rail
yes ?

 

[FranCrimi]

could you give an example when reverse is not inside
thanks fran

What Bob said, plus you can try experimenting on back cut shots with high and middle inside vs. high and middle outside and study the results. The key is when the cb travels to the opposite rail first. --- Like for example: Shooting a back cut on the long rail side into the right corner pocket. (It doesn't have to be set up along the rail, just that the shot should be set up in that direction.) The back cut angle sends the cue ball to the long rail on the left side. You have to set up the angle for that to happen. You can also help it somewhat to get to that rail first by adjusting where on the vertical axis you strike the cb as well as the speed you choose.

As an anecdote: Johnny Ervolino told me that it was one of the most important shots in pool and that I should practice it over and over until it was second nature. I call it a leap of faith shot because it requires total trust. First, you're shooting pretty much a blind a back cut with spin, and second, with inside running spin, the cue ball is running off the rails in a way that looks unexpected if you're not experienced with the shot. Thanks to Johnny, it's now one of my favorite shots.

 

[Bob Jewett]

thats becaus heading toward the rail after contact with the object ball
the direction of spin is inside spin relative to the direction the cue ball is heading toward the rail
yes ?

No.

Inside/outside does not refer to cushions. It only refers to the cue ball to object ball contact. That is the way I use the term and the way I think most pool authors and players use the term.

Running/reverse refers to how the side spin rubs on the rails.

"Reverse" is not equal to "inside". They are unrelated the way I use the terms.

 

[bbb]

What Bob said, plus you can try experimenting on back cut shots with high and middle inside vs. high and middle outside and study the results. The key is when the cb travels to the opposite rail first. --- Like for example: Shooting a back cut on the long rail side into the right corner pocket. (It doesn't have to be set up along the rail, just that the shot should be set up in that direction.) The back cut angle sends the cue ball to the long rail on the left side. You have to set up the angle for that to happen. You can also help it somewhat to get to that rail first by adjusting where on the vertical axis you strike the cb as well as the speed you choose.

As an anecdote: Johnny Ervolino told me that it was one of the most important shots in pool and that I should practice it over and over until it was second nature. I call it a leap of faith shot because it requires total trust. First, you're shooting pretty much a blind a back cut with spin, and second, with inside running spin, the cue ball is running off the rails in a way that looks unexpected if you're not experienced with the shot. Thanks to Johnny, it's now one of my favorite shots.

thanks for the reply fran
i will try out your shots

 

[bbb]

No.

Inside/outside does not refer to cushions. It only refers to the cue ball to object ball contact. That is the way I use the term and the way I think most pool authors and players use the term.

Running/reverse refers to how the side spin rubs on the rails.

"Reverse" is not equal to "inside". They are unrelated the way I use the terms.

thanks for the reply bob
i understand i may not be using the nomenclature correctly and i will make note of that
just one more question about this
(i am being alittle stubborn...sorry )
you play billiards
in double the rail or in spanish they call it renverse (reverse)
if you are going into the left long rail with left english
with relation to the rail isnt that "inside" english??

 

[Bob Jewett]

... if you are going into the left long rail with left english with relation to the rail isnt that "inside" english??

I have never called it that and I don't know any carom player who does. It is reverse on the first two rails and running on the third (for a typical reverse-the-corner shot).