Deflection, Cue Power and Kicking!

Colin Colenso said:
Hey guys,
Thoughts welcomed on these three articles on Deflection, Cue Power and a Kicking Drill.

How to Create Cue Power:
http://www.top147.com/magazine/2004005/2004005062912163723.htm

Hope you enjoy :D
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The sequence you describe is very similar to karate also in your article on cue power. We were taught loose loose,speed. tighten wrist and fist on impact, then the forearm. I pool I notice loose loose speed, wrist flick on impact, some tightening of forearm at the end of the stroke. Is that right about pool?

Laura
 
Bluewolf said:
The sequence you describe is very similar to karate also in your article on cue power. We were taught loose loose,speed. tighten wrist and fist on impact, then the forearm. I pool I notice loose loose speed, wrist flick on impact, some tightening of forearm at the end of the stroke. Is that right about pool?

Laura
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Hi Laura,
This method is used in all sports including martial arts where power is required.

The wrist can play a significant role in cue power if a player can develop it's flicking with precise timing. It is a great way to develop controled power without having to throw the body around during the shot or even move the upper arm much at all.

To develop better wrist flick ability, I do a lot of dry swinging where I focus on letting my wrist move back and forth to its full extent. Then try some hard swings flicking the wrist. This just helps to build up neuromuscular awareness so it becomes easier to experiment with the wrist contraction (flick) timing.
 
Colin,

Those are great articles!

Given that I can't do much regarding deflection from factors related to my cue (ferrule, shaft stiffness, etc.), I'm curious about the factor I can control -- speed.

High speed translates to high deflection.
High speed translates to low throw.

Which wins?

For example: Straight in shot. Apply left English (throw causes object ball to travel right and deflection causes object ball to travel left... net effect ??). Increased speed lowers throw and raises deflection (object ball shoots to left). Vice versa. Let's assume "lag" speed and balls approx 2 feet apart.

I apologize in advance if I'm making no sense.
 
papercut said:
Colin,

Those are great articles!

Given that I can't do much regarding deflection from factors related to my cue (ferrule, shaft stiffness, etc.), I'm curious about the factor I can control -- speed.

High speed translates to high deflection.
High speed translates to low throw.

Which wins?

For example: Straight in shot. Apply left English (throw causes object ball to travel right and deflection causes object ball to travel left... net effect ??). Increased speed lowers throw and raises deflection (object ball shoots to left). Vice versa. Let's assume "lag" speed and balls approx 2 feet apart.

I apologize in advance if I'm making no sense.
Click to expand...


You didn't say how far apart your OB was from the pocket.
My question back to you is, why and under what circumstances would you want to be slinging hard english on the ball for a straight in shot unless you could cheat the pocket a little and it was fairly close to a hole?
 
The example was just illustrative. You're right... I wouldn't try anything fancy on a straight in shot. But, for instance, on a cut shot where I'm applying outside English to counteract push, the speed (and therefore deflection implications) become relevant. How much would I need overcut to take into account deflection?

I don't think distance from pocket matters since I'm more interested in which net direction the object ball would tend to move.

Yeah, I kind of figured my babbling wouldn't make a whole lot of sense!
 
papercut said:
But, for instance, on a cut shot where I'm applying outside English to counteract push, the speed (and therefore deflection implications) become relevant. How much would I need overcut to take into account deflection?
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That depends on who you ask...If you ask a Predatorphile, they'll just tell you there's zero deflection on a Predator shaft so don't worry about it. Put as much english on the CB as you want and there's nothing to worry about. The CB, because of all the extra spin, will zing it around the table 5 rails perfectly to set up your next shot.

Then, you can ask one of the rocket scientists that play by physics and geometry and they'll tell you to do a pivot point test on your cue. Once you have that information, you'll be able to calculate your bridge to make all shots from any distance.

Next, you can buy Phil Capelle's book, "How to Play Your Best Pool" and he has a chart specifically telling you how much deflection to allow based on the speed of your shot.

Then, you can ask a numb nuts like myself who can't shoot a lick, and I'll just tell you to use backhand english and you won't have to worry about any of that crap because it negates all of it, which it does.

So, it kinda boils down to....who do you want to believe and which theory do you want to buy into, that's all I can tell you.
 
drivermaker said:
Then, you can ask one of the rocket scientists that play by physics and geometry and they'll tell you to do a pivot point test on your cue. Once you have that information, you'll be able to calculate your bridge to make all shots from any distance.

...

Then, you can ask a numb nuts like myself who can't shoot a lick, and I'll just tell you to use backhand english and you won't have to worry about any of that crap because it negates all of it, which it does.
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Hey Drivermaker,

Had to have a laugh at you admitting your one of the rocket scientist physics guys :D

Why determine the pivot point if your not going to use to use back hand english?

Cheers - 8ballbanger
 
Soft or hard?

papercut said:
Colin,

Those are great articles!

Given that I can't do much regarding deflection from factors related to my cue (ferrule, shaft stiffness, etc.), I'm curious about the factor I can control -- speed.

High speed translates to high deflection.
High speed translates to low throw.

Which wins?

For example: Straight in shot. Apply left English (throw causes object ball to travel right and deflection causes object ball to travel left... net effect ??). Increased speed lowers throw and raises deflection (object ball shoots to left). Vice versa. Let's assume "lag" speed and balls approx 2 feet apart.

I apologize in advance if I'm making no sense.
Click to expand...

Hi Papercut,
Glad you liked the articles. I'll do my best to decipher your question. I think I got it:)

Drivermaker mentioned the distance to object ball and I think this is important. If I am close to the object ball I can judge deflection and the line of shot quite well and allow for any throw with or without speed so speed is not a problem.

Long shots with side are no fun. Especially when you consider swerve effects. Personally I'll hit these shots at a reasonable speed to reduce any swerving or rolls. I don't make allowances for reduced throw at speed, though it will have some effect. At least I don't make a mental adjustment for it.

While it's interesting to know all the physics of what is going on, when I get down to the shot, I just get a picture of the whole thing in my head, speed, cue ball spin, object ball going into packet, path and speed of cue ball. Then when it feels right, hit it in.

Great players often prefer to hit the balls in with a bit of speed. This can help to negate cling (kicks), swerve and throw. It will increase deflection a little it seems, but that can be adjusted for on shorter shots.

So I would go with harder rather than softer, if you have the option, but you'll need to be good at both.
 
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Hey Drivermaker,
How does your backhand English system compensate for swerve and reduced throw at speed. Does this system claim to negate all these factors exactly, or just to a degree that allows consistancy?

Have you tried this for snooker which requires much more accuracy than pool?
 
I liked the article on kicking, and like the game proposed.

Another kicking game I've played is one with two balls on the table, one being mine and the other being my opponent's. When it's my turn , I must go exactly two rails with my cue ball and hit my opponent's ball, getting a point and continuing to shoot if I'm successful. I've also played the same game with the rule being that you must go three cushions first.

The idea of having kicking games is a great one, as most find kicking a very dull thing to practice. Your article, and I hope, my additions, can help make kicking a fun part of the game to work on.
 
sjm said:
I liked the article on kicking, and like the game proposed.

Another kicking game I've played is one with two balls on the table, one being mine and the other being my opponent's. When it's my turn , I must go exactly two rails with my cue ball and hit my opponent's ball, getting a point and continuing to shoot if I'm successful. I've also played the same game with the rule being that you must go three cushions first.

The idea of having kicking games is a great one, as most find kicking a very dull thing to practice. Your article, and I hope, my additions, can help make kicking a fun part of the game to work on.
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Yep, turning kicking into a game is a great way to turn boring difficult practice into a fun challenge.

I like your game, but I'm not quite sure why you would kick to hit your opponent's ball rather than your own.

The only problem I can see with your drill, is that there is not much incentive to kick the ball hard or to try to make it into a pocket which are skills that can be useful when kicking in a 9-Ball match.
 
Colin Colenso said:
I like your game, but I'm not quite sure why you would kick to hit your opponent's ball rather than your own.
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My ball and my opponent's ball are the only two balls on the table. I must always strike mine, and opponent must always strike his own.

You make a good point, this game/drill doesn't address pocketing balls through kicking, but it does develop kicking to make the hit and also requires refined speed and angle control to play position for the next kick.
 
For building up my "breaking muscles", I purchased 2 pulleys, 2 screw in hooks, some rope, a cue butt size round dowell about 2 ft. long, and a 5 gallon water container (found at camping stores).

I attached one pulley to the ceiling about a foot out from the wall, and the other pulley into the wall at about the height of a pool table (secrewed in hooks to studs in the wall). Then I threaded the rope up through the ceiling pulley then down through the wall pulley.

I attached the end of the rope coming down from the ceiling to the handle of the 5 gallon water container and filled the container about 1/4 full of water. I then drilled a hole larger than the rope through one end of the dowell and tied the other end of the rope to that.

Now I just hold the dowell in my hand like I am about to break and stroke forward. The forward motion pulls on the rope which lifts the water container into the air. I do this 10 times each morning. If I add more water, there will be more weight. (Cheap breaking exercise machine...)
 
sjm said:
My ball and my opponent's ball are the only two balls on the table. I must always strike mine, and opponent must always strike his own.

You make a good point, this game/drill doesn't address pocketing balls through kicking, but it does develop kicking to make the hit and also requires refined speed and angle control to play position for the next kick.
Click to expand...

Sjm,
I didn't mean to be pedantic but you wrote: "When it's my turn , I must go exactly two rails with my cue ball and hit my opponent's ball". Which I guess was a mistake, hence I got a little confused and though I might have missed something.

No doubt that that drill would be a good one, off two or three cushions. It would be interesting to see what kind of run players could build. 50? 100? The 3-cushion players could go for a month with their basketballs :p
 
bill190 said:
For building up my "breaking muscles", I purchased 2 pulleys, 2 screw in hooks, some rope, a cue butt size round dowell about 2 ft. long, and a 5 gallon water container (found at camping stores).

I attached one pulley to the ceiling about a foot out from the wall, and the other pulley into the wall at about the height of a pool table (secrewed in hooks to studs in the wall). Then I threaded the rope up through the ceiling pulley then down through the wall pulley.

I attached the end of the rope coming down from the ceiling to the handle of the 5 gallon water container and filled the container about 1/4 full of water. I then drilled a hole larger than the rope through one end of the dowell and tied the other end of the rope to that.

Now I just hold the dowell in my hand like I am about to break and stroke forward. The forward motion pulls on the rope which lifts the water container into the air. I do this 10 times each morning. If I add more water, there will be more weight. (Cheap breaking exercise machine...)
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Sounds a bit like a chemical weapons lab you got going there Bill :D

It sounds like a pretty good set up and will definitely make you stronger in the right muscles. But mostly in the concentric sense.

If you try to rapidly pull on the bottle powerfully from the backswing, to develop eccentric strength, you could end up with water everywhere and cables flying off pulleys. This is a limitation with most pulley weight systems hence they are used more by bodybuilders than power athletes except for injury recovery.

Even getting a strong handled water bottle with a couple of litres of water in it. Shaking it back and forth like a cue action would worlk pretty well to develop explosive cueing.
 
Colin Colenso said:
Hey Drivermaker,
How does your backhand English system compensate for swerve and reduced throw at speed. Does this system claim to negate all these factors exactly, or just to a degree that allows consistancy?

Have you tried this for snooker which requires much more accuracy than pool?
Click to expand...


Colin...I have never had an opportunity to even try snooker. If I was ever in a place that had a snooker table, I don't remember it.

I'll let you determine if it negates these factors. Test it yourself and let everyone know. Put your CB on the head spot. Get down into your stance but don't place the tip of your cue up to the CB yet. Visually sight the very top of the vertical center of the CB to go directly over the dead center of the foot spot. Now set up your bridge hand on the table with the tip of your cue 1-1 1/2 tips offset to the right. Actually, you can set the right side of your tip as far out to the edge of the CB. As you're still lining up the top center of the CB with the spot, your shaft will be aligned well to the right of the target, don't worry about it...now without moving your bridge hand, pivot the tip of your cue back to the middle center of the CB and shoot. I don't care how hard you hit it, the CB should be going directly over the center of the foot spot every time and your english will take after it hits the end rail. You will get different english reactions with a Predator and a regular shaft.
Reverse the process and do it to the left. What did you get?

That's one way of applying it. When you get that one down pat, I'll give you another way.
 
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Colin Colenso said:
Hey guys,
Thoughts welcomed on these three articles on Deflection, Cue Power and a Kicking Drill.
Click to expand...

To be honest, I like the kick drill but the other two get a bit technical for my old brain.

I don't find kicking boring and do practice it quite a bit. Shooting APA it is important not to give ball in hand if at all possible so quite often you are hooked by a safe play where all you have is a kick of two or more rails to try and get contact.

On the power stroke subject. I am not sure I understand the total value of a power stroke except in the break. I may not be defining what you mean by 'power stroke' properly. It makes me thing of someone shooting very hard. I love to play someone that shoots every shot like they are trying to knock the object ball into the next county. My theory is that it is best to shoot no harder than necessary to make the ball and move the cue ball to your next shooting position on the table. That doesn't require break power, assuming you have a table that rolls true and the rails are not dead. Could you elaborate a bit so I have a better understanding of your point.

Thanks a bunch for sharing your knowledge. Y'all have a wonderful and safe 4th, Pel :)
 
Colin Colenso said:
Hey guys,
Thoughts welcomed on these three articles on Deflection, Cue Power and a Kicking Drill.

The Two Mechanisms of Deflection:
http://www.top147.com/magazine/2004005/2004005063000571287.htm
Click to expand...


O.K., here's a thought...I think a very good case can be made for SPID and I believe it has more effect than realized. I'm not going to be the one doing science lab tests on this, nor do I want to clutter my brain with too much so that I obsess about areas that don't have a lot to do with making balls and running racks in the science department. But over the years I've observed the cueball squirting enough out of control that it affected my shotmaking and it had to do with the tip.
For me, I find that the hardest tip I can put on works best. I like to use either a hercules hard or talisman x-hard, with preference toward hercules. A LePro seems to zing the CB all over the place and I can't use them at all, as well as softer tips. In your studies you find that chalking plays a role in squirt and I agree. But I also find that a roughed up tip with a tip tapper or tip-pik plays quite a role at times in order to hold the chalk. Maybe the roughness upon striking the CB does too. It seems that when a tip gets slick like teflon from pounding balls over a few days, even with chalking after every shot, that screwy things can still happen for no damn reason and you start missing balls. Invariably it's easily remedied by whacking that tip with a tapper and doing it on a daily basis before it gets slick at just the wrong time.
 
bill190 said:
For building up my "breaking muscles", I purchased 2 pulleys, 2 screw in hooks, some rope, a cue butt size round dowell about 2 ft. long, and a 5 gallon water container (found at camping stores).

I attached one pulley to the ceiling about a foot out from the wall, and the other pulley into the wall at about the height of a pool table (secrewed in hooks to studs in the wall). Then I threaded the rope up through the ceiling pulley then down through the wall pulley.

I attached the end of the rope coming down from the ceiling to the handle of the 5 gallon water container and filled the container about 1/4 full of water. I then drilled a hole larger than the rope through one end of the dowell and tied the other end of the rope to that.

Now I just hold the dowell in my hand like I am about to break and stroke forward. The forward motion pulls on the rope which lifts the water container into the air. I do this 10 times each morning. If I add more water, there will be more weight. (Cheap breaking exercise machine...)
Click to expand...


I do the same thing (sort of) with a dumbell. I hold it like a cue and get into my stance at my table and stroke the dumbell 5-10 times. (I don't do this on competitive days as it tears down some of the muscle which tends to reduce my "feel"---I do it on my "off" days so the muscles have time to rebuild) This helps build my arm muscles and their memories. But one of the surprise advantages I've discovered is this excercise really helps me create a stance that is comfortable and stable enough to last an entire session of pool. If my stance is off, even by a little, I notice it immediately with the extra weight.

Another advantage is no holes in the ceiling or walls.

Jeff Livingston
 
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