deflection line of the cue ball, TOI related

[hlymnstr14]

ok, so once the cue ball deflects, is the new path parallel to the original straight line or does it just keep getting wider as the cue ball travels down the table? if it does get wider, distance of the shot would have to be a factor in TOI wouldn't it?

 

[ENGLISH!]

Is distance a 'factor'? I can't think of anything off the top of my head where distance is not a 'factor' unless one is going to argue from the standpoint of perfection.

I may be wrong, but I think you are over thinking it. I have not seen anyone playing pool with a scientific calculator on the rail.

So what's your point? I'm not sure I see it.

 

[kwoshunli]

Is distance a 'factor'? I can't think of anything off the top of my head where distance is not a 'factor' unless one is going to argue from the standpoint of perfection.

I may be wrong, but I think you are over thinking it. I have not seen anyone playing pool with a scientific calculator on the rail.

So what's your point? I'm not sure I see it.

I think i get what the thread starter is saying.

I have a copy of CJ's TOI video. I use this technique and people get amazed by my cutting ability.

What he's saying is, if you put a hair of inside english, and there is a very slight deflection, the more distance it takes, the wider the deflection becomes.

Say,

2 diamonds apart - 0.1 mm deflection (approx)
4 diamonds apart - 0.2 mm deflection (approx)
6 diamonds apart - 0.3 mm deflection (approx)

The idea is somehow like this according to how I understand it. Please correct me if' i'm wrong.

 

[hlymnstr14]

Is distance a 'factor'? I can't think of anything off the top of my head where distance is not a 'factor' unless one is going to argue from the standpoint of perfection.

I may be wrong, but I think you are over thinking it. I have not seen anyone playing pool with a scientific calculator on the rail.

So what's your point? I'm not sure I see it.

well if the line is parallel, then the distance doesn't matter aim the same way whether the shot is 2 ft or 8 ft. if it gets wider over distance, then the distance 100% matters.

i may be over thinking it, then again, i may not. i might just be thinking it. depends on the distance of the thought i guess.

 

[hlymnstr14]

I think i get what the thread starter is saying.

I have a copy of CJ's TOI video. I use this technique and people get amazed by my cutting ability.

What he's saying is, if you put a hair of inside english, and there is a very slight deflection, the more distance it takes, the wider the deflection becomes.

Say,

2 diamonds apart - 0.1 mm deflection (approx)
4 diamonds apart - 0.2 mm deflection (approx)
6 diamonds apart - 0.3 mm deflection (approx)

The idea is somehow like this according to how I understand it. Please correct me if' i'm wrong.

that's exactly what i am saying.:thumbup:

 

[ENGLISH!]

well if the line is parallel, then the distance doesn't matter aim the same way whether the shot is 2 ft or 8 ft. if it gets wider over distance, then the distance 100% matters.

i may be over thinking it, then again, i may not. i might just be thinking it. depends on the distance of the thought i guess.

Thanks for the chuckle from your last line.

IMHO The CB does not jump a 'touch' opposite the tip & then travel parallel. It starts on a different vector & if hit firm enough will not swerve back from the spin (not 3:00 or 9:00).

So, as I said unless one is speaking from a stand point of perfection then the increase of distance does have a relation. That being said the benefit of TOI is best when shoting longer distance shots because there is more time to get more angle from more squirt & add cut to the OB. Again IMHO

I am having a bit of less success with the shots where the CB & OB are rather close. I am having to employ a diferent visual connection of the two because I know the CB won't squirt enough in that short of a distance & time frame. I'm playing LD shafts.

My point in asking your point was what are you going to factor in? The 1mm / 2 ft. formula? Not me. I will simply develop a feel for it & I have.

I don't know if any of this helps, I hope so, but it is what it is.

Regards,

 

[hlymnstr14]

Thanks for the chuckle from your last line.

IMHO The CB does not jump a 'touch' opposite the tip & then travel parallel. It starts on a different vector & if hit firm enough will not swerve back from the spin (not 3:00 or 9:00).

So, as I said unless one is speaking from a stand point of perfection then the increase of distance does have a relation. That being said the benefit of TOI is best when shoting longer distance shots because there is more time to get more angle from more squirt & add cut to the OB. Again IMHO

I am having a bit of less success with the shots where the CB & OB are rather close. I am having to employ a diferent visual connection of the two because I know the CB won't squirt enough in that short of a distance & time frame. I'm playing LD shafts.



My point in asking your point was what are you going to factor in? The 1mm / 2 ft. formula? Not me. I will simply develop a feel for it & I have.

I don't know if any of this helps, I hope so, but it is what it is.

Regards,

i agree totally that TOI is a feel thing and shouldn't be too calculated.

the swerve back to a parallel line was also what i was thinking but with a firm shot (90% of my shots) the swerve doesn't come into play.

TOI is great. it has improved my long shot making by leaps and bounds. and i can stun the ball with precision. that is a pretty big weapon.

 

[ENGLISH!]

i agree totally that TOI is a feel thing and shouldn't be too calculated.

the swerve back to a parallel line was also what i was thinking but with a firm shot (90% of my shots) the swerve doesn't come into play.

TOI is great. it has improved my long shot making by leaps and bounds. and i can stun the ball with precision. that is a pretty big weapon.

Yeah,

It is great. The only time I feel that it is not is when I either under or over hit.

In other words I don't execute it properly, probably due to some old subconscious infiltration that causes confusion in the playing apparatus, my right arm & hand.

You definitely can't baby it.

Best Regards & Play Well,

 

[LAMas]

I think i get what the thread starter is saying.

I have a copy of CJ's TOI video. I use this technique and people get amazed by my cutting ability.

What he's saying is, if you put a hair of inside english, and there is a very slight deflection, the more distance it takes, the wider the deflection becomes.

Say,

2 diamonds apart - 0.1 mm deflection (approx)
4 diamonds apart - 0.2 mm deflection (approx)
6 diamonds apart - 0.3 mm deflection (approx)

The idea is somehow like this according to how I understand it. Please correct me if' i'm wrong.

You are describing an very small angle of squirt that gets progressivley larger (away from the original center CB aim line) as the CB goes down table.

This means that you will cut the same shot angle thinner the greater the distance between the CB and OB is.

Perhaps one can use a bit less TOI for the greater separations.

Conversely, one may use more than a touch of inside when the CB and OB are close together to effect the same cut angle.

This presupposes that the shooter recognizes the cut angle relationship between the CB, OB and target/pocket.:wink:

 

[CJ Wiley]

I advocate hitting as many shots as you can at the same speed so the deflection/spin

ok, so once the cue ball deflects, is the new path parallel to the original straight line or does it just keep getting wider as the cue ball travels down the table? if it does get wider, distance of the shot would have to be a factor in TOI wouldn't it?

Speed and distance effect deflection. There are shots I hit that I have to aim "out of the pocket," and the "3 Part Pocket System" starts out slightly inside the pocket.

On cut shot that are table length I shift from "Center/Edge" on my alignment to "Center/Center", even on thin cuts.

I advocate hitting as many shots as you can at the same speed so the deflection/spin equalizes the shot. This might take some time to explain.

 

[AtLarge]

Speed and distance effect deflection. There are shots I hit that I have to aim "out of the pocket," and the "3 Part Pocket System" starts out slightly inside the pocket.

On cut shot that are table length I shift from "Center/Edge" on my alignment to "Center/Center", even on thin cuts.

I advocate hitting as many shots as you can at the same speed so the deflection/spin equalizes the shot. This might take some time to explain.

Haven't you also said that you angle your cue down a bit so that swerve offsets some of the squirt at the longer distances?

 

[CJ Wiley]

If you believe the Game is perfect and work backwards things start making more sense

Haven't you also said that you angle your cue down a bit so that swerve offsets some of the squirt at the longer distances?

Yes, I personally hold my back hand on my hip and let the cue touch the table to establish a desired cue angle. Pre setting the angle of my cue to my wrist (by using the hip/table) is important to perfecting this "unit".

If you believe the Game is perfect and work backwards things start making more and more sense. When you understand the Speed-Angle-Tip Target relationship you will also find that the amount of spin offsets the deflection to a certain extent. I believe, from my experience, that this is especially true if you start out slightly inside (TOI). I really need to demonstrate this.

Until I can show you please don't just believe me, try it out for yourself - start out slightly inside, then pivot to the outside and see if the deflect isn't perfectly offset by the spin on a medium paced stroke. This has to be calibrated before you can ever how to become a highly advanced player, there's no way around it. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[LAMas]

Haven't you also said that you angle your cue down a bit so that swerve offsets some of the squirt at the longer distances?

If one hits the CB with TOI and an accelerating stroke....will swerve occur in time to correct for the squirt down table?

 

[ENGLISH!]

If one hits the CB with TOI and an accelerating stroke....will swerve occur in time to correct for the squirt down table?

Acceleration can be relative, 0 to 10 or 0 to 60. IMHO the squirt/swerve 'cancellation' is a factor of spin to speed ratio especially if one is using a 'parallel' method. This is the reason that I have always used a soft tip when playing with english so much. IMHO a soft tip can put more spin to speed making it easier to get the proper relation of swerve to squirt. I believe that Dr. Dave's literature suggests that a soft tip can create more squirt but stated that that conclusion may not be correct due to some parameter. I might be incorrect regarding that. But I prefer a soft tip when playing with english as a main shot for the reason I stated above.

Regards,

 

[CJ Wiley]

This may be a revelation for some of you that want to "cut the paint off the ball".

If one hits the CB with TOI and an accelerating stroke....will swerve occur in time to correct for the squirt down table?

No, that's why there's a transition of aiming "Center/Edge" to "Center/Center".....and if you notice on long shots you just need minimum of TOI.

Basically in your calibration of TOI you'll find that the longer the shot the less TOI you will need (up to half) or you will just shoot your cut shots like they're straight in. As a test, set up a severe cut shot 8-9' away and line up Center/Center, then if you're cutting the ball to the right, cue it a tip to the right and try to cue it in.....try to hit the edge by moving TOI. This may be a revelation for some of you that want to "cut the paint off the ball".

If you don't favor the TOI and try to hit center, guess what, if you're just a "half a hair" off on a long shot it's going to deflect BOTH WAYS and it's going to be Twice As Much. There's no way I would feel comfortable cutting a ball firmly using a center ball hit at 9'....if I'm off slightly I could over cut it or miss the ball entirely. With TOI this won't happen, I may have to "zero in" according to the table, however, once I do I'm going to be dangerous on ALL long shots. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[LAMas]

No, that's why there's a transition of aiming "Center/Edge" to "Center/Center".....and if you notice on long shots you just need minimum of TOI.

Basically in your calibration of TOI you'll find that the longer the shot the less TOI you will need (up to half) or you will just shoot your cut shots like they're straight in. As a test, set up a severe cut shot 8-9' away and line up Center/Center, then if you're cutting the ball to the right, cue it a tip to the right and try to cue it in.....try to hit the edge by moving TOI. This may be a revelation for some of you that want to "cut the paint off the ball".

If you don't favor the TOI and try to hit center, guess what, if you're just a "half a hair" off on a long shot it's going to deflect BOTH WAYS and it's going to be Twice As Much. There's no way I would feel comfortable cutting a ball firmly using a center ball hit at 9'....if I'm off slightly I could over cut it or miss the ball entirely. With TOI this won't happen, I may have to "zero in" according to the table, however, once I do I'm going to be dangerous on ALL long shots. 'The Game is the Teacher'

So rather than using swerve to compensate for squirt, you would use less TOI for a large separation between the CB and OB...to reduce the squirt angle applied by TOI and an accelerating stroke...that makes sense.

One must determine how much TOI to use for various separations between the CB and OB because not all shooters are alike. Time at the table will determine what will work using the principles of TOI for a given shooter.

With an accelerating stroke, swerve doesn't enter into the equation...the amount of TOI is used instead. This is better than depending on swerve that may have varied results depending on how much english is applied, the speed of the cloth and the speed of the stroke/hit.

Thanks if my perception of TOI is close to being correct...not?

 

[CJ Wiley]

TOI has a built in "anti-pressure" system

So rather than using swerve to compensate for squirt, you would use less TOI for a large separation between the CB and OB...to reduce the squirt angle applied by TOI and an accelerating stroke...that makes sense.

One must determine how much TOI to use for various separations between the CB and OB because not all shooters are alike. Time at the table will determine what will work using the principles of TOI for a given shooter.

With an accelerating stroke, swerve doesn't enter into the equation...the amount of TOI is used instead. This is better than depending on swerve that may have varied results depending on how much english is applied, the speed of the cloth and the speed of the stroke/hit.

Thanks if my perception of TOI is close to being correct...not?

Yes, that's why it's essential to accelerate using the TOI Technique. From my experience when someone starts "dogging it" from nerves or pressure the cause usually begins with deceleration. Consistency is doing the same thing over and over and that's what the TOI System is all about....period!

TOI has a built in "anti-pressure" system, that's why under pressure my two thoughts are TOI/ACCELERATION. I've been fortunate enough to play in a lot of "Big Money" matches and this system holds together well.

Jack Nicklaus, the famous golfer was quoted saying he had one, sometimes two "swing thoughts" during his high pressure rounds of golf. We were doing the same thing, just in different sports disciplines.

The Touch of Inside MAKES the cue ball the essential target, so I can adjust immediately if there is a change in humidity, cloth or equipment. Remember, TOI wasn't invented to play in tournaments with near perfect conditions, the "forte" is gambling at pool rooms in ALL KINDS of conditions.

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[scottjen26]

I have a few issues with TOI, and what has been keeping me from messing with it further:

- One, just the issue of spending yet more time learning and tweaking, feel like I've been doing that for 2 years and to get my game to the next level at some point I just have to say enough is enough...

- Recalibrating my aiming, especially for thinner cuts. Somehow on say 1 - 15 degree cuts it's pretty easy to judge how much TOI to use, but as I approach the cutoff for center to center, or start looking at say 50 - 80 degree shots, factoring in distance, etc., it just seems like it would take a fair amount of work. Maybe not, to be fair I've only played around with it for a few hours

- The speed needed to achieve the correct TOI action seems counter productive to something I've been working on lately, which is hitting the object ball a little more softly to allow it to roll into the pocket more, I've noticed that by hitting it still firmly but just a little bit easier, say 20 - 30% less speed, the pockets are accepting more shots that might be just a bit off. Perhaps I'm doing TOI incorrectly, but for me I feel that using a firm, accelerating stroke puts me back into the mode where I'm punching the balls into the pocket again, no room for error (other than the built in stroke error with the technique itself)


[EDIT: Just watched CJ's 29 ball run in one pocket, noticed many of the shots were shot with a nice pocket speed. So perhaps I can learn to use TOI technique without hitting the ball so hard to achieve the deflection. In my brief experimentation seems if I hit easier than swerve can come into play, especially with LD shafts, so maybe some comment on how the nice pocket speed is achieved while still attaining the necessary deflection?]



I do really like the anti-pressure aspect, I can certainly relate to the spaghetti arm we all can get under pressure, and the flat cue ball reaction (also achieved with a pure center ball hit) is a plus for people that can't control the usual outside spin induced shots. Jury is still out for me, but nice to see that some decent players are having success with it.

Scott

 

[CJ Wiley]

There's no "aiming" with TOI, this is taken care of by blending the calculations.....

I have a few issues with TOI, and what has been keeping me from messing with it further:

- One, just the issue of spending yet more time learning and tweaking, feel like I've been doing that for 2 years and to get my game to the next level at some point I just have to say enough is enough...

- Recalibrating my aiming, especially for thinner cuts. Somehow on say 1 - 15 degree cuts it's pretty easy to judge how much TOI to use, but as I approach the cutoff for center to center, or start looking at say 50 - 80 degree shots, factoring in distance, etc., it just seems like it would take a fair amount of work. Maybe not, to be fair I've only played around with it for a few hours

- The speed needed to achieve the correct TOI action seems counter productive to something I've been working on lately, which is hitting the object ball a little more softly to allow it to roll into the pocket more, I've noticed that by hitting it still firmly but just a little bit easier, say 20 - 30% less speed, the pockets are accepting more shots that might be just a bit off. Perhaps I'm doing TOI incorrectly, but for me I feel that using a firm, accelerating stroke puts me back into the mode where I'm punching the balls into the pocket again, no room for error (other than the built in stroke error with the technique itself)


[EDIT: Just watched CJ's 29 ball run in one pocket, noticed many of the shots were shot with a nice pocket speed. So perhaps I can learn to use TOI technique without hitting the ball so hard to achieve the deflection. In my brief experimentation seems if I hit easier than swerve can come into play, especially with LD shafts, so maybe some comment on how the nice pocket speed is achieved while still attaining the necessary deflection?]



I do really like the anti-pressure aspect, I can certainly relate to the spaghetti arm we all can get under pressure, and the flat cue ball reaction (also achieved with a pure center ball hit) is a plus for people that can't control the usual outside spin induced shots. Jury is still out for me, but nice to see that some decent players are having success with it.

Scott

We all have our own path and it sounds like you're on one that is taking you closer to your desired outcomes. Don't plan too far ahead, just put my techniques on the shelf where you can freely come back to them later.

The TOI Technique isn't for everyone, I'd say only 1 out of 10 players, Scott, will really incorporate the philosophy and develop the concept correctly.

The 'TOUCH OF INSIDE' system must blend the three calculation you have to make on each shot together, or it simply won't be effective. Your SPEED - SHOT ANGLE - CUE BALL TARGET must all be consistent to make all the shots seem the same and effectively make the cue ball the primary target.

There's no "aiming" with TOI, this is taken care of by blending the calculations together. The SHOT ANGLE is taken care of, however, without the right shot speed and cue ball target you're back to "square one" and this is not a good "holding pattern" - you can't combine the TOI style of play with conventional styles, it's like mixing oil and water. 'The Game is the Teacher' www.cjwiley.com