Delayed Power English Shot

X Breaker

X Breaker

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would like to ask you why is it that some cues can produce more "delay' action than others with a power english shot?

What are the variables to look for?

By "delay" I am talking about the curve the cue ball makes after it contacts the object ball.

e.g. with power bottom, the cue ball will curve in a parabolic path. Some cues can produce a more drastic parabolic path, i.e. more delay.

e.g. with power top spin, the cue ball will hit the cushion, then bounce and then go forward to the cushion again. Some cues will cause the cue ball to curve sooner than other cues. Some cues will cause the cue ball to "delay" the curve so you can see a bigger curve.

e.g. In 14.1, some player can play a break out shot with power english and the cue ball will run into the pack, and then run through the pack. Sometimes, the cue ball will have so much power that it will hit a lot of balls, and still run through. This is a bit different from the "delay" I mentioned earlier, but I think a cue which can do this will share the same properties as a cue with a big "delay".

I know some of you will try to tell me it is all in the stroke and Reyes can shot anything with a broomstick, but I do not agree that he can make the same power english shots he makes with his Judd if he had a broomstick. With a different cue, the cue ball reaction will not be the same, the cue ball will curve differently, and will hit the rail at a different spot. He will have to hit the cue ball differently to achieve the same result.

What I want to know is what in a cue makes a cue perform differently in regard to cue ball path with power english shot?

Is it the taper? If so, what kind of taper will cause more delay? Why?

Is it the joint? Which kind will cause more delay? Why?

Is it the balance? What is the best balance point for more delay, why?

Is it the ferrule material? Which ferrule will cause more delay? Why?

...

Thanks in advanced.

Richard
 
nipponbilliards said:
I know some of you will try to tell me it is all in the stroke
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Richard...You got that right, and I'm one of them! IMO, statistical differences in cue construction would have less to do with what happens in your example, than perhaps one tip over another...and I don't believe it would be THAT great a difference anyway...in the hands of someone with an expert stroke.
jmo

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Scott Lee said:
Richard...You got that right, and I'm one of them! IMO, statistical differences in cue construction would have less to do with what happens in your example, than perhaps one tip over another...and I don't believe it would be THAT great a difference anyway...in the hands of someone with an expert stroke.
jmo

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Hi Richard,

Although I think cues(especially properly rounded tips) can vary things, I'll have to agree with Scott on this one, it almost allways comes down to stroke.

Do you remember the things Frenchie(local pro) was doing with your cue and mine a week ago.With the lightest draw stroke(softest of hits) we've both ever seen draw the cue ball the length of the table.The tremendous top spin hook around curve shots etc etc. He was stroking shots that mear mortals aren't capable of.
RJ
 
There is actually no delay. If you playing with a measle cue ball, you will notice that it is spinning all the while(with english). So there should be not more english generated(probably minimal) after contact of both ball.

Thing to look for are:
1.Person(physical) playing the shot.
2.Knowledge and Skill he/she must have to execute proper English.
3.Type of material and design of a cue.
4.Type of Pool Ball.
5.Type of Pool table cloth e.g. Simonis 760/860 or carom
6.Cleanness of ball.
7.Cleanness of table cloth.
8.Type material and shape and size of the tip.
9.For the draw shot and creating parabolic path, it is the type of angle and power of the shot. The forward motion takes charge until it losses its power and the English kick in and cause it to draw back.

CueTable Help

 
All that matters is the millisecond contact between the tip and the ball...

specifically how "rigid" the tip is in relation to the ball(ie the tendency for the tip to move away from the ball when struck at an angle vs staying straight along its intended stroke path), and the force applied.

I really don't think any of the other things in the cue have enough chance to actually affect it... its all about how much force the tip can resist and stay on its intended path, and then the momentum(speed really since all cues are within such a close range of weight) itself.

since the bridge and stroke would have major influences on how much force the tip resist, I'd say that 95% of this is in the stroke...
 
MacGyver said:
I really don't think any of the other things in the cue have enough chance to actually affect it...
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Yes there are. Different woods have different flexibility. Cue with hollow internal in certain area of the cue will have weaker draw shot.
The dimension of the shaft does affect the amount of spin on a cue-ball so does the shape of the tip. Smaller size shaft and tip plays better English but lack power. (Efren uses a thinner size shaft) Try playing English with a flat tip and a round tip, you will feel the differences.
 
In my opinion, the amount of "delay" you observe is directly proportional to the amount of spin the CB has at impact. The more the spin, the more the "delay".

The delay that you observe is just the CB slipping on the felt because of its rapid spin. It slips even more (appears to have more delay) when the CB is moving more laterally (orthogonal) to its spin, which is why the parabolic trajectories seem longer on some power draw shots with significant angle.

I'm pretty sure that this delay is cloth dependent. You'd observe much less delay playing on slow nap cloth than Simonis.

So the fundamental question is not how do you cause more delay, but how do you cause the CB to spin more at impact...and I'm sure this forum contains countless threads on that.

EDIT: Just want to add another thing. Given the same spin on the CB, the delay would appear more the faster the CB is traveling laterally. So CB linear speed, not only spin, plays a roll in it as well.
 
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nipponbilliards said:
I would like to ask you why is it that some cues can produce more "delay' action than others with a power english shot?
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It seems you are looking for a magic bullet you can go to a shop to buy. Sorry, there is no such thing. The key component for all the shots you described is a great stroke. There is no other answer.

As for whether Efren could do with another cue what he does with his Judd, do you think he developed a great stroke after he began using a Judd?

I've watched great players pick up a cheap house stick and execute all the shots you're talking about. It's not equipment. I also watched Irving Crane, 30 years ago, hit a break shot in a straight pool match; the cue ball hit the rack, paused, then exploded through the rack, so much so, he scratched. Do you think he used a Judd or a Moori or a Predator shaft or a Limb Stabilizer to power his stroke 30 years ago?
 
icem3n said:
Yes there are. Different woods have different flexibility. Cue with hollow internal in certain area of the cue will have weaker draw shot.
The dimension of the shaft does affect the amount of spin on a cue-ball so does the shape of the tip. Smaller size shaft and tip plays better English but lack power. (Efren uses a thinner size shaft) Try playing English with a flat tip and a round tip, you will feel the differences.
Click to expand...

Well if you'll re-read what I posted I basically said that flexibility(or rather the how the tip resist force pushing it off intended path) is practically the only factor besides speed*mass that factors into it...

At the same time that flexibility of wood matters, you'll get wildly different results from an open bridge and relaxed grip than closed bridge with death grip...

I still think that most of the variance in flexibility as you say of the wood could be compensateed by stroke.


Regarding why a ball would "Delay" think new cloth and new balls, and/or a harder hit will delay english... Less friction means it will take longer for spin to "grab" the cloth so you'll see a delay.

Jacking up to get the cue to mini-jump can also affect the spin as less time on cloth should equal more spin, as well as being a bit airborn right after contact should modify how english affects cue ball path... don't discount mini-jumps as on hard shots many players do this anyway(why do you think the cue ball hops on breaks?)
 
Spin vs. speed is the answer you're looking for. If you have a certain amount of backspin on the ball, the shape of the arc all depends on how fast the CB is moving, because with the same ball on the same cloth, the spin will "take" at the same rate.

If you're cutting the ball, the cue ball immediately moves off along the tangent line, and then the spin changes its direction from there. The spin takes a certain amount of time to produce a very noticeable change in direction. This time depends on how much spin you have, and how slick the cloth is. No more, no less.

How far the CB moves along the tangent line during this time is totally dependent on how fast it's going, no more, no less.

So if you hit the ball with a lot of backspin, but not a lot of speed, there's little delay. Hit the ball with the same amount of backspin, but faster, and you see more delay. Move to a table with a faster cloth, and you'll see even more delay, because the CB spin takes longer to noticeably change the CB direction, having less friction to work with. On a super-fast cloth, and a very hard hit, you see the cue ball go quite a ways along the tangent line, and possibly hitting a rail, before "magically" changing direction and spinning back uptable. But it's important to note the CB is spinning the whole time, it's just a matter of how long it takes the spin to really get the CB moving.

-Andrew
 
I'm inclined to believe it is mostly stroke. There is one other thing I don't think can be overlooked. As you all have indicated, it is the amount of spin on the cue ball that does this. So the amount of grip the tip gets on the cue ball is a factor.

I don't think Richard is doubting the stoke being important or that great stokers can do this regardless. He is asking, what do you think will help those who don't have Irving Crane's stoke.

I think the answer to that question is in the tip and getting it to grip the cue ball, not in the shape of the stick.
 
CaptainJR said:
I'm inclined to believe it is mostly stroke. There is one other thing I don't think can be overlooked. As you all have indicated, it is the amount of spin on the cue ball that does this. So the amount of grip the tip gets on the cue ball is a factor.

I don't think Richard is doubting the stoke being important or that great stokers can do this regardless. He is asking, what do you think will help those who don't have Irving Crane's stoke.

I think the answer to that question is in the tip and getting it to grip the cue ball, not in the shape of the stick.
Click to expand...


Don't believe me? Go down to the YMCA and take one of the sticks off the wall that has one of those slide on rubber tips. You won't be able to make a shot, but you will be able to do some wild shit with the cue ball.
 
Three directional forces are all effectig the cue ball at once. Two are not dependent on friction and one (the back spin) is.

The first force is, the original direction of the cue ball.

The second is opposing force from the object ball, pushing in the opposite direction of the object balls path.

Theses first two forces are are dependent on how fast the cue ball is travelling when it strikes the object ball.

The third force is the backspin which is in a direction directly opposite of the first force. This does not mean that they cancell each other out. If they did, then the cue ball would bounce straight back in the direction of force #2

Things that can have an effect on this parabola are;
A) Spin to Velocity ratio of the cue ball.
B) Cut angle (object ball line not varied) due to english, throw increased or decreased.
C) Tip placement, higher results in a lower spin to velocity ratio.
D) Cue ball mass to object ball mass ratio. Heavier cue ball = more parabola effect.
E) Ball surface, clean or dirty.
F) Cloth speed.
G) Humidity
H) Stroke, straight and smooth vs. short punchy.
I) Tip, how well is it gripping the cue ball?
J) Shaft stiffness, too stiff decreases spin to velocity ratio.
K) Cue elevation, jacked up = stroke energy wasted by transfering to the slate, which increases spin to velocity ratio.
L) Cue mass, heavier increases velocity thereby decreases spin to velocity ratio.

These are all I can think of right now, but as you can see, there are many variables. Understanding the tip placement and how it effects the spin to velocity ratio, is the most important part. The cue does have some effect, but I think it is more the Indian, than the arrow.

Tracy
 
I am afraid I was not being clear. I am sorry for the misunderstanding caused. Captain JR seemed to understand me for some reason.:)

Yes I know you need a stroke to make certain shots, but for those of you who have tried to make the same shot with different cues on the same table should notice that the cue ball does not always behave the same way. If you try to note where the cue ball makes contact with the cushion, the path the cue ball curves, and the amount of spin it comes off the cushion...you will understand why I ask my questions. It is because different cues respond differently.

I am not saying Reyes developed his stroke after he had his Judd, but I am saying perhaps he knows how the cue ball would react with his Judd better. Do you remember him taking another cue out to make a shot on the 8 ball in the KOTH, why did he do that if the cue makes no difference? Why would pro players carry their own cues?

And because I believe a cue would make a difference, I would like to ask the members on this forum what kind of variables/parameters in a cue would cause such differences. That was my question.

Thank you for those who have answered my question by mentioning the tip. I believe that is a big factor. But I have noticed different cues with the same tip which also produces different reaction on the cue ball. So, I believe it is more than just the tip.

I believe the taper has a lot to do with it. What kind of taper will produce more "delay"? Is it just a longer taper? Is longer always better?

The joint type should also play a part, because of the amount of compression and the "spring effect" as a result of this compression that the cue has on the cue ball, do you think so? Ferrule material should have a similiar effect. I have heard yellow Micarta ferrules are awesome, but it is not the lightest nor the softest so I think there are more to the ferrule than just how hard/sofe it is.

Balance is another factor I would like to understand. Will a butt heavy cue produce the same amount of spin as a front heavy cue, what is the best balance point?

Basically, I am not saying I think there is a cue out there which can make all the shots for the players, but I believe certain cues will make things a bit easier. With a stroke, a player can make the most out of any equipment; but with a good stroke and the best equipment, a player can play his/her best game.

Thank you.

Richard
 
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Richard, now I understand your question better (assist to Capt).

The tip, and particularly the tip shape, influences how much spin you can apply to the ball. Up to a point, the more the tip is rounded, the more English you can apply. Obviously, there is a point of diminishing return, however; too much crown and miscues will become a regular occurence. I believe a softer tip will allow for hitting the cueball farther from the center, resulting in more spin. Efren, for what it's worth, uses Elk Masters--a very soft tip.

A springier shaft will also add action to the cueball. This was Bob Meucci's contention when he introduced his cues over 20 years ago. He was the first production cue maker to my knowledge who offered "pro taper" shafts. The downside to an action shaft is control. The springier the shaft, the harder it is to control.

In terms of physical things you can do to improve the action of your stroke, here's something I seldom find discussed, but which can dramatically improve cueball action. Stroking slightly down through the cueball adds control, accuracy, and increases cueball action. Most top players do this, but you'll see it most notably by Mike Sigel, Holmann, Immonen and, now that I think of it, the aformentioned Irvin Crane. (By the way, if you get the chance, watch the '66 US Open 14.1, where Crane runs 150 and out against Joe Balsis.) Reyes and Bustamante do it, too, but it's a little harder to see with them.
 
Yes it is true that you can draw the ball with a broom handle. (if you have the right stroke)

Fact of the matter is different set ups will require a different stroke to achieve results....Good players can adapt their stroke to different set ups and still draw the ball, but "everyone" has natural tendancies...If you can find a set up that fits your natural tendancies of stroke the best, you will be more consistent....(this is why pros like "certain" cues,tips,joints,hits)


I think the "effects" your talking about are comeing from cloth type/newness, and CB weight, and perhaps even OB weight. I will leave the physics behind it to the scientists, but just play with a Bar Box Mud ball to see the "delay" effect...Sometimes you can put a great stoke on a Mud Ball and you can stand thier and watch all day waiting for the delay to stop and the draw to kick in...but it never does...:)
 
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nipponbilliards said:
I am afraid I was not being clear. I am sorry for the misunderstanding caused. Captain JR seemed to understand me for some reason.:)


I believe the taper has a lot to do with it. What kind of taper will produce more "delay"? Is it just a longer taper? Is longer always better?

The joint type should also play a part, because of the amount of compression and the "spring effect" as a result of this compression that the cue has on the cue ball, do you think so? Ferrule material should have a similiar effect. I have heard yellow Micarta ferrules are awesome, but it is not the lightest nor the softest so I think there are more to the ferrule than just how hard/sofe it is.

hard
Click to expand...

I understand your iintention, but you knocking on the wrong door.:D
If you happen to come across the best taper, do email me. I do want to try out such shaft.
Have you tried asking DPK/Ed Young re taper? Maybe they do have some secret.;)
 
tedkaufman said:
Richard, now I understand your question better (assist to Capt).

The tip, and particularly the tip shape, influences how much spin you can apply to the ball. Up to a point, the more the tip is rounded, the more English you can apply. Obviously, there is a point of diminishing return, however; too much crown and miscues will become a regular occurence. I believe a softer tip will allow for hitting the cueball farther from the center, resulting in more spin. Efren, for what it's worth, uses Elk Masters--a very soft tip.

A springier shaft will also add action to the cueball. This was Bob Meucci's contention when he introduced his cues over 20 years ago. He was the first production cue maker to my knowledge who offered "pro taper" shafts. The downside to an action shaft is control. The springier the shaft, the harder it is to control.

In terms of physical things you can do to improve the action of your stroke, here's something I seldom find discussed, but which can dramatically improve cueball action. Stroking slightly down through the cueball adds control, accuracy, and increases cueball action. Most top players do this, but you'll see it most notably by Mike Sigel, Holmann, Immonen and, now that I think of it, the aformentioned Irvin Crane. (By the way, if you get the chance, watch the '66 US Open 14.1, where Crane runs 150 and out against Joe Balsis.) Reyes and Bustamante do it, too, but it's a little harder to see with them.
Click to expand...

Well said.:)
 
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