Dennis Wins - has this been done before?

[nb92]

......Yes I grant there are many great players in China, Taiwan and from Europe. But if they want to match up with the filipinos, they can get action.

I'm not here to just bark. If you knew me you would know that. I like to put things together and make them happen. If there was any chance of creating a singles or team match I'm fully prepared to do my part, including put up money. Are you?

Bueller, Bueller, Bueller?

 

[Masayoshi]

Alex is filipino! He lives in Canada. The fact is you said that the Taiwan players are BETTER players than the filipinos.

No I didn't. And Alex represents Canada when he goes abroad, does he not?

Maybe in the US. Other countries are right behind the Filipinos and Taiwan might even be a hair better.

The key words in that phrase are MIGHT and HAIR. Both of which give a completely different meaning than "the Taiwan players are BETTER players than the filipinos."

This would indicate that they should be very willing to go to Manila to take on the weaker filipinos. Should they lose by some miracle, we could arrange a rematch in Taipei.

Even if I said that, it would not indicate that they would be very willing to go to Manila because home court advantage is huge, ESPECIALLY in the Philippines.

My challenge extends to Chang as well. If he wants to play Dennis, we can arrange a match on neutral territory if he's afraid to go to Manila. If these Taiwanese players are so good then the crowd shouldn't really be a factor. I've been watching filipinos play in front of hostile crowds for 25 years and they manage to win anyway. They seem more immune to the pressure and imo that's why they can and will beat a team from Taiwan.

You might be right about that. The Filipinos are certainly more conditioned to different environments, but that would not give them an advantage in a neutral setting. The Taiwanese have proven themselves under pressure on the biggest stages. I don't think it is fair to them to claim that they will falter under such situations, but even if they did, it wouldn't prove that they are lesser players, just that they don't do as well in an environment that the Filipinos were essentially born in raised in.

I have no knowledge whether or not Chang has the means and will to gamble with Dennis, but to insinuate that he is afraid of him is itself a cowardly attack on a guy who neither reads azb nor likely understands enough English to defend himself if he did read the forums.

The Challenge of Champions is not an indication of anything with the one game format to win matches, or maybe you haven't been paying attention. Let them play a long match (like Yang used to do) and let's see who's really the best. By the way, the first time Dennis came to the USA, he won his first big table tournament and then he won the U.S. Bar Table Eight Ball Championship playing on a small table for the first time! There were about 200 players in the field, including all the best bar table specialists in the country.

Never said that it did. Just that Chao won it more than once in a field of the best in the world on US soil. I am sure that had he actually played in other events he would have done more than "not make a dent" as one of the posters here wrote.

That is a great achievement for Dennis, but its not really relevant to the discussion.

I have yet to see one player from Taiwan play in the USBT Championships. The filipinos are not afraid to travel wherever they need to go to play pool and win money. And they face the same travel expenses and inconveniences as any other player coming from Asia. Bottom line, they're hungry to play and win! There isn't really another nation with players like that. Yes I grant there are many great players in China, Taiwan and from Europe. But if they want to match up with the filipinos, they can get action.

The Filipinos that go the US are usually sponsored or backed. They also get help from their fellow countrymen in terms of accommodation and travel planning. They also speak English more or less and the dollar goes a lot farther in pesos than in Taiwanese dollars. Not to mention the opportunity cost of skipping out on Taiwanese pro events. Its a whole different ball game for the Taiwanese and the Filipinos.

I'm not here to just bark. If you knew me you would know that. I like to put things together and make them happen. If there was any chance of creating a singles or team match I'm fully prepared to do my part, including put up money. Are you?

Actually I do know that. I know from your reputation on the boards that you would no doubt put up the money you said you would, but in terms of discussion on the board towards people you know wont make it happen, it amounts to no more than an offer to hold an iPeen measuring contest.

 

[f210]

You might be right about that. The Filipinos are certainly more conditioned to different environments, but that would not give them an advantage in a neutral setting. The Taiwanese have proven themselves under pressure on the biggest stages. I don't think it is fair to them to claim that they will falter under such situations, but even if they did, it wouldn't prove that they are lesser players, just that they don't do as well in an environment that the Filipinos were essentially born in raised in.
QUOTE]

:grin: LOL.... you are contradicting yourself, man. Isn't the USA a neutral country for the Taiwanese and Filipinos? Then how come, the pinoys have been more successful here? If the Taiwanese can only excel in Asia, then they 'they have not proven themselves to be 'under pressure on the biggest stages'.

 

[GaryB]

I can't speak for all the American pros, however, there's a few that I've talked to that agree, 9 Ball has been ruined. It's just too easy and some of us play more for the challenge than the money. I know it's a "shock", but it's true. Short races with a format of a "rack running contest" is like playing on a bar table used to be.....boring.

I'm not taking anything away from Dennis and Shane because they would will be on top because they work harder than anyone else. Shane and Dennis both practice an average of 6-8 hours a day. They really want to win plus Dennis is "encouraged" by his backers at home to treat pool in the most serious way possible. Again, I think hard work should be rewarded.

I would like the game made more difficult again, NOT to see different players win, because it would basically be the same ones in the top 5.

My reasons are selfish.....I hate playing "rack running contests" because to me the game is much more than that. I've played and gambled against the very best players in the world and I really like a challenge. Pool's not a challenge right now, and it's hard to get excited about it and pattern racking, magical racks, soft breaking, gaff equipment, and fast, easy conditions make it worse, not better.

I believe if the game of pool could talk it would agree with what I'm saying, and I'm positive the greatest players would also agree. I've been to pro events where they don't even announce the players that are getting ready to play. This is the ultimate in disrespect to the players and the game. 'The Game is the Teacher' CJ Wiley

CJ, not all of the equipment is easier. I have seen the "Devil" tables at Hard Times make even seasoned pro's quake. I think that you were last there for a IPT qualifier in the 90"s. At that time the tables had slow cloth and the pockets were slightly larger than they are now. Also, Magic Rack, no matter how consistently it enables people to make balls on the break is a hell of a lot better than watching players argue incessantly and seemingly forever about the rack.

Masayoshi, I watched Dennis on his 1st day in a pool room in the US run 15 ball rotation twice. It was for the above mentioned IPT qualifier that he was at Hard Times. There were World class players from all over the world. US, Philippines, Great Britain, most countries in Europe and Japan. All of whom were so confident in their ability that they plunked down a $2000 entry fee knowing that only two of them would get a IPT card. During the days of pool that I watched I witnessed probably the highest level of pool overall that I have ever seen in a tournament. At the end of those days Oliver Ortmann came in 2nd and in 1st was a young Filipino who spoke virtually no English by the name of Dennis Orcollo.

 

[Masayoshi]

You might be right about that. The Filipinos are certainly more conditioned to different environments, but that would not give them an advantage in a neutral setting. The Taiwanese have proven themselves under pressure on the biggest stages. I don't think it is fair to them to claim that they will falter under such situations, but even if they did, it wouldn't prove that they are lesser players, just that they don't do as well in an environment that the Filipinos were essentially born in raised in.
QUOTE]

:grin: LOL.... you are contradicting yourself, man. Isn't the USA a neutral country for the Taiwanese and Filipinos? Then how come, the pinoys have been more successful here? If the Taiwanese can only excel in Asia, then they 'they have not proven themselves to be 'under pressure on the biggest stages'.

What contradiction? The US is far from neutral for the Taiwanese. First of all, they speak far less English than the average Filipino, and second, they don't have a huge network of supporting countrymen to house, manage, and direct them. And again, if they come to the US, it is likely they have to skip their own pro tour events which are most likely far more lucrative. Contrary to popular belief, the biggest stages in pool are NOT in the US, but the tournaments that have full participation from both the Taiwanese and the Filipino camps. These tournaments include the various world championships (only one of which is held in the US), the Guiness Tour (although that seems to be non-existant after 2012), and the bigger Japan tournaments. All of which the Taiwanese tend to do as good if not better than the Filipinos.

 

[jay helfert]

No I didn't. And Alex represents Canada when he goes abroad, does he not?



The key words in that phrase are MIGHT and HAIR. Both of which give a completely different meaning than "the Taiwan players are BETTER players than the filipinos."


Even if I said that, it would not indicate that they would be very willing to go to Manila because home court advantage is huge, ESPECIALLY in the Philippines.




You might be right about that. The Filipinos are certainly more conditioned to different environments, but that would not give them an advantage in a neutral setting. The Taiwanese have proven themselves under pressure on the biggest stages. I don't think it is fair to them to claim that they will falter under such situations, but even if they did, it wouldn't prove that they are lesser players, just that they don't do as well in an environment that the Filipinos were essentially born in raised in.

I have no knowledge whether or not Chang has the means and will to gamble with Dennis, but to insinuate that he is afraid of him is itself a cowardly attack on a guy who neither reads azb nor likely understands enough English to defend himself if he did read the forums.




Never said that it did. Just that Chao won it more than once in a field of the best in the world on US soil. I am sure that had he actually played in other events he would have done more than "not make a dent" as one of the posters here wrote.

That is a great achievement for Dennis, but its not really relevant to the discussion.



The Filipinos that go the US are usually sponsored or backed. They also get help from their fellow countrymen in terms of accommodation and travel planning. They also speak English more or less and the dollar goes a lot farther in pesos than in Taiwanese dollars. Not to mention the opportunity cost of skipping out on Taiwanese pro events. Its a whole different ball game for the Taiwanese and the Filipinos.


Actually I do know that. I know from your reputation on the boards that you would no doubt put up the money you said you would, but in terms of discussion on the board towards people you know wont make it happen, it amounts to no more than an offer to hold an iPeen measuring contest.

You're right, I'm wasting my time here. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[f210]

What contradiction? The US is far from neutral for the Taiwanese. First of all, they speak far less English than the average Filipino, and second, they don't have a huge network of supporting countrymen to house, manage, and direct them. And again, if they come to the US, it is likely they have to skip their own pro tour events which are most likely far more lucrative. Contrary to popular belief, the biggest stages in pool are NOT in the US, but the tournaments that have full participation from both the Taiwanese and the Filipino camps. These tournaments include the various world championships (only one of which is held in the US), the Guiness Tour (although that seems to be non-existant after 2012), and the bigger Japan tournaments. All of which the Taiwanese tend to do as good if not better than the Filipinos.

I also think I am wasting my time here. English speaking skills are not a pre-requisite for being an excellent pool player. For god's sake, you do not even have to open your mouth or even utter a single word when you are playing a match. It is not as if these pinoys have good English speaking skills. No, they let their cues and abilities speak for themselves. If you are a true champion, you should be able to thrive in ANY environment and not just succeed in your own comfort zone. So much for your excuses.

 

[Masayoshi]

I also think I am wasting my time here. English speaking skills are not a pre-requisite for being an excellent pool player. For god's sake, you do not even have to open your mouth or even utter a single word when you are playing a match. It is not as if these pinoys have good English speaking skills. No, they let their cues and abilities speak for themselves. If you are a true champion, you should be able to thrive in ANY environment and not just succeed in your own comfort zone. So much for your excuses.

What excuses? The Taiwanese have done very well in the few tournaments they have entered in the US. The not speaking English part factors into their choice not to go, not in their playing ability. They have to find and hire a pool savvy guide and translator if they come and fade that among the other costs of international travel. The Filipinos get those services at little to no cost due to the help of Filipinos that live in the US and support them and generally have basic English speaking and listening abilities to help them get along. And on top of that, when you factor in the opportunity cost of them having to skip out on their own events, it leaves little incentive for them to go.

Of course maybe you are wasting your time. Throwing your hands up in the air and giving up like Jay rather than coming up with an intelligible argument might be the easy road for you. At least its a slightly more rational stance than throwing out a pissing contest everytime an argument doesn't go your way.

 

[Masayoshi]

CJ, not all of the equipment is easier. I have seen the "Devil" tables at Hard Times make even seasoned pro's quake. I think that you were last there for a IPT qualifier in the 90"s. At that time the tables had slow cloth and the pockets were slightly larger than they are now. Also, Magic Rack, no matter how consistently it enables people to make balls on the break is a hell of a lot better than watching players argue incessantly and seemingly forever about the rack.

Masayoshi, I watched Dennis on his 1st day in a pool room in the US run 15 ball rotation twice. It was for the above mentioned IPT qualifier that he was at Hard Times. There were World class players from all over the world. US, Philippines, Great Britain, most countries in Europe and Japan. All of whom were so confident in their ability that they plunked down a $2000 entry fee knowing that only two of them would get a IPT card. During the days of pool that I watched I witnessed probably the highest level of pool overall that I have ever seen in a tournament. At the end of those days Oliver Ortmann came in 2nd and in 1st was a young Filipino who spoke virtually no English by the name of Dennis Orcollo.

I was there as well. Its a great achievement and he played great, although he probably plays even a bit better now, although I would guess that Dennis spoke at least survival English and understood more than he let on at the time as many Filipinos tend to do.

 

[nb92]

...

Of course maybe you are wasting your time. Throwing your hands up in the air and giving up like Jay rather than coming up with an intelligible argument might be the easy road for you. At least its a slightly more rational stance than throwing out a pissing contest everytime an argument doesn't go your way.

----

Who is better, is an endless theoretical discussion. Deciding is real simple, players play. Currently on one side is a guy with a fistful of dollars ready to go... he isn't hard to find. After taking down a lot of cheese in the US going home for awhile then back here in June.

I know Dennis has won almost everything the last 12 months...

On the other side is a lot of opinions... everyone has an opinion but only one way to know... at the end of the match, Count the Money... the guy with the most is the best.. Real Simple

otherwise it just a lot of hot air....