diagrams pertaining to pivot-based aiming systems

[dr_dave]

Patrick,
The alignment diagram pertains to CTE systems. A first step in CTE is to visually see CTE. Clearly, the CB edges change from shot to shot as well as the OB edges. (I invite everyone to experience this. Just go to a table and set up the shots for A and B and C.) Dr. Dave wrote that the alignment is the same for A,B,C........The only alignment that is common for A, B and C is that they're straight to the center diamond on the end rail. Dr. Dave's alignment statement is in reference to pocketing the balls in the bottom left corner.
Stan

Stan,

Thank you for responding. I'm sure many people appreciate your involvement ... I certainly do. Here's the diagram again:

As Patrick pointed out, with every shot I want us to consider, the CB and OB both remain on the center line of the table, and the CB and OB are the same distance apart, and the goal is to pocket the OB in the corner pocket. Therefore, the only thing that changes from one shot to another is the angle to the pocket (i.e., the necessary cut angle to make the shot). For simplicity sake, let's assume a center-ball hit on the CB for all shots. Let's also assume the balls are clean and polished and the amount of cut-induced-throw does not vary significantly among the shots we will consider.

The diagram shows the CTE line for each shot "A" through "D". They are all parallel. The diagram also shows that if your cue is aligned and aimed along the CTE line, you will miss all of the shots except shot "A." I am not claiming this is how the popular CTE align-and-pivot systems work. It is just a statement of fact. What we want to know is how the angle to the pocket is taken into consideration for different shots like the ones in the diagram. More specifically, how do you create the subtle changes in aim necessary (e.g., with where and how you place your bridge hand and/or how you pivot to center) for different shots when the CB-OB relationship is the same for those shots (i.e., the CB and OB are just being shifted slightly, and together, so only the required angle to the pocket is slightly different)?

In particular, I was hoping you (and/or others) could explain what you do differently for a range of shots between positions "A" and "B" in the diagram. Again, for each of the shots, both the CB and OB are being shifted together so they remain on the table center line the same distance apart. Start at position "A" and pocket the OB in the corner pocket, then shift both balls a little closer to the "B" position, and pocket the OB again, and continue until you get to position "B." Obviously, if you use the same alignment, the same bridge placement, and the same pivot for each of these shots, and you don't do anything differently from one shot to the next, you will miss all of the shots except one of them (at best).

Please try to be specific about what is different with the alignment, bridge placement, and/or pivot steps for a range of shots between positions "A" and "B." Is it true that the location of the pocket is not important when applying CTE to this range of shots (between positions "A" and "B")? I know the answer must be no, but I don't think I have heard or read how the pocket location (i.e. cut angle) is considered in the system.

Thank you again for you time and patience. If you are willing, please try to address my specific questions.

Regards,
Dave

 

[mikepage]

[...]

The diagram shows the CTE line for each shot "A" through "D". They are all parallel. The diagram also shows that if your cue is aligned and aimed along the CTE line, you will miss all of the shots except shot "A." I am not claiming this is how the popular CTE align-and-pivot systems work. It is just a statement of fact. What we want to know is how the angle to the pocket is taken into consideration for different shots like the ones in the diagram.[...]

This certainly is the central question that must be answered.

 

[stan shuffett]

There is a visual for CTE on each shot but the angles are not the same.

Dr. Dave, you indicated that the shots were the same. I answered very clearly that they are not the same. The shots are apples and oranges.

The eyes and the body have a different starting point for each shot.

Stan

 

[mikepage]

There is a visual for CTE on each shot but the angles are not the same.

Dr. Dave, you indicated that the shots were the same. I answered very clearly that they are not the same. The shots are apples and oranges.

The eyes and the body have a different starting point for each shot.

Stan

OK now we're getting somewhere. If they're different shots, you must be seeing them as different shots because of the relation of the balls to the pocket. So you're getting the pocket involved at the get go.

In other words there's no difference in the relation between the balls for these shots.

 

[dr_dave]

There is a visual for CTE on each shot but the angles are not the same.

Dr. Dave, you indicated that the shots were the same. I answered very clearly that they are not the same. The shots are apples and oranges.

The eyes and the body have a different starting point for each shot.

Stan

Is it possible to explain how (and by how much) you change the eye and body starting points for the shots I have suggested (between positions "A" and "B" in the diagram), or is this done somewhat by feel, and is the location of the pocket (or the cut angle) considered during all of these steps? In other words, how do you know what to look at and where to position the eyes and body for each of the shots I have described? It is very obvious and visually clear how to align precisely with the center-to-edge line (the center of the CB with the well defined edge of the OB), but if you say the balls have many "edges" or points of contact, how do you decide which ones to use for a given shot (of the ones I have described) and how to you accurately visualize and align with the other not-so-clear "360 edges" on the balls.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[stan shuffett]

The pocket is not involved at the get-go. There is no need to look at or stand facing a pocket when determining a shot angle. (Obviously, I know the pocket is there.) The pocket location was determined by a 4.5 foot table design.

CTE/PRO ONE are visual systems. The fact that one sees CTE for different shots places their eyes and body in a different space. (Dr. Dave, stand at a table and see CTE for each shot and you will experience just how much your eyes and body are in a different position.)

There are 1000s and 1000s of shots on a pool table. Just multiply the edges of the CB times the OB edges and the number is quite large.

IMO, the easiest way to deal with such a magnitude of shots is to start off with a straight line:Center to Edge.

Stan

 

[dr_dave]

The pocket is not involved at the get-go. The pocket location was determined by a 4.5 foot table design.

CTE/PRO ONE are visual systems. The fact that one sees CTE for differents shots places their eyes and body in a different space.

There are 1000s and 1000s of shots on a pool table. Just multiply the edges of the CB times the OB edges and the number is quite large.

IMO the easiest way to deal with such a magnitude of shots is to start off with a straight line:Center to Edge.

I agree the CTE line is very easy to visualize and is an excellent reference. As you point out, it is a great place to "start off." I think the difficult part is going from there to the precise aiming line required to make a specific shot (one of the large magnitude of shots). This is what great shot makers seem to do with ease (w/ or w/o a "system").

Regards,
Dave

 

[stan shuffett]

Dr. Dave, Sorry, you missed my last edit in your quote.

Stan

 

[mikepage]

The pocket is not involved at the get-go. There is no need to look at a pocket when determining a shot angle.

Stan -

An "angle" requires two lines. One is the line between the balls, and the other is the line from the object ball to the pocket. "Determining the shot angle MUST involve the pocket. There just is no way around it.

The pocket location was determined by a 4.5 foot table design.

Only the pocket location relative to something FIXED with the table (like the center spot, for instance), not the pocket location with respect to a variable object ball location

CTE/PRO ONE are visual systems. The fact that one sees CTE for different shots places their eyes and body in a different space. (Dr. Dave, stand at a table and see CTE for each shot and you will experience just how much your eyes and body are in a different position.)
There are 1000s and 1000s of shots on a pool table. Just multiply the edges of the CB times the OB edges and the number is quite large.

There really is no specific number of "edges." The fact there are 360 degrees in a circle is arbitrary. You could equally well divide a circle into 1000 segments, or 20, or 10,000.

IMO, the easiest way to deal with such a magnitude of shots is to start off with a straight line:Center to Edge.

I think I might agree with this.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Stan, here are Dave's shots in 3D. The 1 ball is on the head spot, the 2 ball is on the center spot and the 3 ball is on the foot spot. For all three shots the CB is 1 diamond away from the OB and on the same centerline. For all three shots the cue stick is aimed center-to-edge. The yellow, blue and red lines show where the OBs go when aimed and hit with these center-to-edge alignments.

We want all three shots to go into the far left corner pocket, but only the 2 ball goes with this center-to-edge alignment. How must we change our aim to make the other two shots (1 ball and 3 ball) also go into the far left corner pocket?

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Another setup...

Here's another similar setup. The three OBs are in the same positions as before, but the CB is shifted to the right 1/2 ball width so that its center is aligned with the right edge of all 3 OBs and the center-to-edge alignment is the same aim for all 3 shots (if you look carefully you can see that our line of sight is along the right edges of all 3 OBs, which all, of course, line up in a straight line with the CB center - there's no "vanishing point perspective" issue).

The CB doesn't move at all. For the second and third shots I simply remove the 1 ball and then the 2 ball to reveal the next shot.

Again, although these are all center-to-edge alignments the OBs all go to different places. How do we get them all to go to the same place?

pj
chgo

 

[stan shuffett]

Typical CTE shots require no conscious thought of the pocket. Yes, subconsciously the pocket is always a factor.
There is no reason to assign less than 360 edges or more than 360 edges to the CB or OB.

An edge is clearly a micro slice of a ball. 360 is a fitting number. If you want 180 or 720 or whatever, that's your choice. I teach 360 as it I was taught to me by Hal Houle.

The CTE shots depicted above show half ball hits. Yeah, maybe one of them goes into a pocket and the other 2 do not. The CTE initially is a visual reference having nothing to do with half ball hits. What you are depicting is 1 quarters shot that can be pocketed and 2 that can't be. Good info for learning about half ball shots. The CTE visual is only a first step, nothing to do with half ball hits.

Obviously, there is a process that follows the 1st step of visual CTE. That processs allows the shooter to arrive at a proper aim line.

Stan

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Obviously, there is a process that follows the 1st step of visual CTE. That processs allows the shooter to arrive at a proper aim line.

Stan

There must be three separate processes to make all three of those shots into the same pocket. The same process (for instance, pivoting from edge to center) would again make them all go to different places. Is it a different process for each of the three shots?

pj
chgo

 

[lfigueroa]

Here's another similar setup. The three OBs are in the same positions as before, but the CB is shifted to the right 1/2 ball width so that its center is aligned with the right edge of all 3 OBs and the center-to-edge alignment is the same aim for all 3 shots (if you look carefully you can see that our line of sight is along the right edges of all 3 OBs, which all, of course, line up in a straight line with the CB center - there's no "vanishing point perspective" issue).

The CB doesn't move at all. For the second and third shots I simply remove the 1 ball and then the 2 ball to reveal the next shot.

Again, although these are all center-to-edge alignments the OBs all go to different places. How do we get them all to go to the same place?

pj
chgo

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damn, Pat. You are getting really good at these visual aid things.

Lou Figueroa
impressed

 

[Patrick Johnson]

damn, Pat. You are getting really good at these visual aid things.

Lou Figueroa
impressed

It's a trick. I use Virtual Pool 3 and screen capture the visuals. Three shots takes about 15 minutes to capture and post.

pj
chgo

 

[stan shuffett]

Pat,

Compliments for your great Virtual Pool 3 depictions. What a great teaching tool!

Shot #1 is of the thick catagory. Requires a learned process. *There is a process for thick and thin shots. That's it.

Shot #2 is of the thin catagory. Requires a learned process.

Shot #3 is of the thin catagory. Requires the same process as shot #2 but the shooter visually creates a new edge on the cueball. (Part of learning PRO ONE)

I am gone for a while.

Stan

 

[Colin Colenso]

The pocket is not involved at the get-go. There is no need to look at or stand facing a pocket when determining a shot angle. (Obviously, I know the pocket is there.) The pocket location was determined by a 4.5 foot table design.

CTE/PRO ONE are visual systems. The fact that one sees CTE for different shots places their eyes and body in a different space. (Dr. Dave, stand at a table and see CTE for each shot and you will experience just how much your eyes and body are in a different position.)

There are 1000s and 1000s of shots on a pool table. Just multiply the edges of the CB times the OB edges and the number is quite large.

IMO, the easiest way to deal with such a magnitude of shots is to start off with a straight line:Center to Edge.

Stan

Perhaps this is what you're refering to Stan.

I've placed the eyes (red) and body / foot (blue) kind of where they might be on the table for these different shots. They are in a different space to each other, albeit having the same relation to the CB and OB.

They key would then appear to be how the line is taken from this position. What mechanism is possible that it takes the cue to different lines relative to the CB and the CTE line?

It would be good to hear a description of how the player moves to the line of aim after having aligned their body and eyes to the CTE line.

Colin

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Pat,

Compliments for your great Virtual Pool 3 depictions. What a great teaching tool!

Shot #1 is of the thick catagory. Requires a learned process. *There is a process for thick and thin shots. That's it.

Shot #2 is of the thin catagory. Requires a learned process.

Shot #3 is of the thin catagory. Requires the same process as shot #2 but the shooter visually creates a new edge on the cueball. (Part of learning PRO ONE)

I am gone for a while.

Stan

Thanks for taking the time to give us this feedback, Stan.

For when you return:

You say that "thick" shots and "thin" shots require different "learned processes" to adjust. Is each process a purely mechanical adjustment that anybody can make accurately once the steps are learned, or do they require some practice and experience to get them right? (I don't mean practice seeing which is the right adjustment; I mean practice making the adjustment once it's known what kind is needed.)

pj
chgo

 

[swest]

Wouldn't want this discussion to go stale now that PJ has answered the 2-D, 3-D critics with a 3-D view of the shots in question.

ttt.

 

[stan shuffett]

Thanks for taking the time to give us this feedback, Stan.

For when you return:

You say that "thick" shots and "thin" shots require different "learned processes" to adjust. Is each process a purely mechanical adjustment that anybody can make accurately once the steps are learned, or do they require some practice and experience to get them right? (I don't mean practice seeing which is the right adjustment; I mean practice making the adjustment once it's known what kind is needed.)

pj
chgo

Back for a moment,

PRO ONE is physically a very fluid-like movement from the intiail center to edge visual all the way to set position. IMO, only a trained eye would recognize that a shooter may be using PRO ONE. (There is nothing mechanical at all about PRO ONE.) Each step is led by precise visual objectives. The eyes lead the body every step of the way even to the correct bridge placement. A adjustment that I make outside of extremes is when I reach set position I ajust my tip to exact center cueball.

Conscious attention (PRACTICE) is a must to learn PRO ONE. The time that it takes for the process to become effortless depends on the player. Many variables there.

****The Pivot is way overrated!!!

Stan Shuffett