No, actually the nose height is the same at 1 29/64"ths, so that hasn't changed:grin:
diamond pro am rails
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No, actually the nose height is the same at 1 29/64"ths, so that hasn't changed:grin:
From a table mechanic's perspective, why do you suppose pool cushions are proportionally so much higher relative to ball diameter than carom cushions?
UMB carom regulations specify a 37mm nose height for 61.5mm balls, which gives 37/61.5=0.602 or 60.2% of the ball diameter. WPA pool regulations, for example, specify a nose height of 63.5% of the 2.25" ball diameter +-1% (Diamond's 1-29/64 falls slightly above that range at 64.6%).
If pool players think Diamonds play shorter than normal, us 3-cushion players think they do even more so (we already think all pool tables play short
). I just accept the difference and adjust to whatever conditions I'm playing under, but I've always been curious about the evolution of the height discrepancy. My theory is that it's there to help accommodate the conflicting playability goals of 3-cushion vs pool.In billiards, we love super-fast long-angled tables with slippery cloth so we can easily move the cue ball 2 or 3 times around the table for 5-9 rail shots and still get nice back-ups off the last rail to make targets bigger. We want to be able to shoot with max reverse english into a rail and still have enough left on the ball to spin 3-5 rails around the table.
In pool, fast slippery conditions make it very hard to control the cue ball, so they use higher-friction cloth that's not stretched as tightly in order to slow things down and make it more playable by increasing the margin of error for the much shorter distance the CB tends to travel. It seems to me that raising the nose height for pool evolved to contribute to that effect (or carom rails were lowered, depending on your perspective
).Robert
whAT rOBERT SAID (i WANNA KNOW TOO, gLEN!)
dAMN cAPS lOCK!
dAMN cAPS lOCK!
From a table mechanic's perspective, why do you suppose pool cushions are proportionally so much higher relative to ball diameter than carom cushions?
UMB carom regulations specify a 37mm nose height for 61.5mm balls, which gives 37/61.5=0.602 or 60.2% of the ball diameter. WPA pool regulations, for example, specify a nose height of 63.5% of the 2.25" ball diameter +-1% (Diamond's 1-29/64 falls slightly above that range at 64.6%).
If pool players think Diamonds play shorter than normal, us 3-cushion players think they do even more so (we already think all pool tables play short
In billiards, we love super-fast long-angled tables with slippery cloth so we can easily move the cue ball 2 or 3 times around the table for 5-9 rail shots and still get nice back-ups off the last rail to make targets bigger. We want to be able to shoot with max reverse english into a rail and still have enough left on the ball to spin 3-5 rails around the table.
In pool, fast slippery conditions make it very hard to control the cue ball, so they use higher-friction cloth that's not stretched as tightly in order to slow things down and make it more playable by increasing the margin of error for the much shorter distance the CB tends to travel. It seems to me that raising the nose height for pool evolved to contribute to that effect (or carom rails were lowered, depending on your perspective
Robert
The nose height you're talking about for billiards is actually 1 9/16"s where as pool cushions are at the top end, 1 29/64"ths...so there's actually about a 1/16"th of an inch difference in nose height, but there's a little more to it than that. Such as the cushions used for billiards, way different than pool cushions...much harder, which means more consistent banks on a billiards table vs a pool table. The balls are also much different, not just in size...but in weight too. The billiards cushions are designed for consistent rebound with little transfer of spin, combined with very thin cloth equals distance of object balls traveled. Pool cushions are different in that they're softer because the cue ball needs to be able to spin off the cushions to get to a certain spot on the table, and without cushion compression that's very hard to do, as the more the cushion compresses the more the angle can be changed coming off the cushions. So, the two are totally different games, even to the point that different cues are used. No one I know of plays pool with a 55" long cue, yet on the other hand, I don't know anyone that plays billiards with a 58" cue either. The 1917 Brunswick billiards table I rebuilt in AZ...on my second shot...banked 11 rails, with an unheated slate, and T-rail mounted rails...so, wait until you see Diamond's 3C billiards table later next year...the play on it'll blow your mind if you like 3C
But before that table comes out, the 9ft ProAm straight rail billiards table is just about ready for market right now, so I'll be posting pictures of that table shortly. 
Glen
Diamond's New Rail/Cushion Configuration
I have Diamond's new rail/cushion design and I have not taken an oath of silence. As I understand it, they have changed the angle at which the cushion is attached to the rail. It just adds a little more meat to the ball when it impacts the rail. The height at which the ball meets the rail is unchanged. It should, again as I understand it, make the rebound a little more lively and slightly increases the angle of reflection to respond to comments that their rails bank short. The new blue Diamond logo which replaces the red one, indicates that a table has this new feature.
Another relatively recent Diamond change is that they have replaced their leather basket drop pockets with a black, heavy duty, Cordura-like nylon. A real improvement in my opinion. It makes for a nicely defined target and they also hold quite a few more balls than the old leather baskets.
Bob C
I have Diamond's new rail/cushion design and I have not taken an oath of silence. As I understand it, they have changed the angle at which the cushion is attached to the rail. It just adds a little more meat to the ball when it impacts the rail. The height at which the ball meets the rail is unchanged. It should, again as I understand it, make the rebound a little more lively and slightly increases the angle of reflection to respond to comments that their rails bank short. The new blue Diamond logo which replaces the red one, indicates that a table has this new feature.
Another relatively recent Diamond change is that they have replaced their leather basket drop pockets with a black, heavy duty, Cordura-like nylon. A real improvement in my opinion. It makes for a nicely defined target and they also hold quite a few more balls than the old leather baskets.
Bob C
That's probably the older American specification, but 37mm +-1mm is definitely the current height specified by the UMB in the doc I linked to. It's used for all international competition these days. 1-9/16" is 39.7mm, which is definitely above the acceptable range.
These are excellent points. That confirms my thoughts that the higher friction between ball and cushion on a pool table is intentional from a playability perspective. (3-cushion under such conditions would be unbearable
).Now you do
I played billiards with a Schuler for 15 years or so. A few years ago, I bought a Predator P2 with a 30" Z2 shaft for pool and now use it exclusively for both games. My stance has lowered over the years in 3C so I appreciate a longer cue now, and I really like the low deflection shaft, which is not too different from the european taper on the Schuler I played with. The Schuler pool shaft OTOH was high deflection, which is what made me eventually try the Predator in the first place.The Diamond 3C table sounds very promising - I hope to try one when they're released. I don't think I've ever seen a Brunswick that plays on par with the modern European tables like Verhoeven, Chevillotte, Gabriels, Soren Sogard, etc., but I wouldn't be surprised that certain models can with careful attention by a top mechanic. No heater in FL would be pretty brutal with our high humidity, though. If the Diamond 3C tables work out, I'm sure many here in the States will be happy to be able to buy top quality equipment without the high import costs.The 1917 Brunswick billiards table I rebuilt in AZ...on my second shot...banked 11 rails, with an unheated slate, and T-rail mounted rails...so, wait until you see Diamond's 3C billiards table later next year...the play on it'll blow your mind if you like 3C
Glen
Robert
Thanks for spilling the beans, Bob
I was wondering about the difference since they had a few blue logo tables at the Seminole event this weekend.Does the new material prevent those annoying black marks on the balls that the leather ones sometimes made? They didn't seem to affect ball-ball friction from my tests, but they sure didn't look so great.
Robert
As you might imagine, Diamond is working on that issue but, so far as I know, nothing is firmed up as of yet.
Bob C