Diamond pro-cut 4.5" vs GC 4.25" pockets.

G

gxman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Do the Diamond 4.5" pockets play about as difficult as a GC 4.25"?

I rattle balls on my diamond all day long. I dont have any experience with tight pocket GC's, but I will say my diamond plays much tougher than the Brunswick at one of my local pool halls.

Again I am a low level C player thats getting back into the game.
 
gxman said:
Do the Diamond 4.5" pockets play about as difficult as a GC 4.25"?

I rattle balls on my diamond all day long. I dont have any experience with tight pocket GC's, but I will say my diamond plays much tougher than the Brunswick at one of my local pool halls.

Again I am a low level C player thats getting back into the game.
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The difference is that on the Diamond, the pocket shelf will support about 60% of the ball past the points of the pocket. The GC with 4 1/4" pockets will only sulport about 40% of the ball sitting on the pocmet shelf before falling in, BUT....ball rattle takes place on both tables in the same outer half of the pockets. If the GCs had the pockets tightened up by adding facings instead of extending the rails and using a single facing, the stacked up facings become so stiff they won't compress when a ball is fired into the pocket, so the balls die off the facings and drop into the pocket, whereas on the Diamond with a single facing and extended sub rails, the facings maintain a live facing bounce and will reject the balls more easily compared to the GC.
 
realkingcobra said:
The difference is that on the Diamond, the pocket shelf will support about 60% of the ball past the points of the pocket. The GC with 4 1/4" pockets will only sulport about 40% of the ball sitting on the pocmet shelf before falling in, BUT....ball rattle takes place on both tables in the same outer half of the pockets. If the GCs had the pockets tightened up by adding facings instead of extending the rails and using a single facing, the stacked up facings become so stiff they won't compress when a ball is fired into the pocket, so the balls die off the facings and drop into the pocket, whereas on the Diamond with a single facing and extended sub rails, the facings maintain a live facing bounce and will reject the balls more easily compared to the GC.
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What is a "standard" facing thickness/material, and would you have bad play if you had to 1/8 inches on top of each other, or does it take more facings than that to really effect the compression?
 
Wieguns said:
What is a "standard" facing thickness/material, and would you have bad play if you had to 1/8 inches on top of each other, or does it take more facings than that to really effect the compression?
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All depends on what the facing material is made out of. The standard cloth impregnated 1/8" facings that most billiard stores sell gets brick hard ofer time and starts breaking down. The thckier the facings, or stacking them up, results in dead points in the pockets. When a ball hits the point of the pocket it just dies right there. Second problem is when the facings get to thick, or to hard, it causes the cloth to wear through to points of the pockets. And, to hard of facings cause the balls to lose any bounce back and forth inside the pocket which creates a dead pocket, while to soft creates a superball effect in the pocket, and the Olhausen death rattle....LOL
 
realkingcobra said:
All depends on what the facing material is made out of. The standard cloth impregnated 1/8" facings that most billiard stores sell gets brick hard ofer time and starts breaking down. The thckier the facings, or stacking them up, results in dead points in the pockets. When a ball hits the point of the pocket it just dies right there. Second problem is when the facings get to thick, or to hard, it causes the cloth to wear through to points of the pockets. And, to hard of facings cause the balls to lose any bounce back and forth inside the pocket which creates a dead pocket, while to soft creates a superball effect in the pocket, and the Olhausen death rattle....LOL
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I don't know what I have, but I would bet it is the standard cloth impregnated you mentioned. Is there are preferred material or thickness? I was thinking about having these pockets tightened up a bit (without extending the rail, etc.), Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
 
Wieguns said:
I don't know what I have, but I would bet it is the standard cloth impregnated you mentioned. Is there are preferred material or thickness? I was thinking about having these pockets tightened up a bit (without extending the rail, etc.), Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
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The only way I'll ever tighten pockets is by extending the sub rails and using a single thickness of facing in which i prefer 3/16" neoprene 60 durometer hardness. If experimented with 50 durometer hardness neoprene as it softens the points of the cushions nicely, but creates to much back and forth bounce inside the jaws of the pocket which results in rejected balls.
 
realkingcobra said:
The only way I'll ever tighten pockets is by extending the sub rails and using a single thickness of facing in which i prefer 3/16" neoprene 60 durometer hardness. If experimented with 50 durometer hardness neoprene as it softens the points of the cushions nicely, but creates to much back and forth bounce inside the jaws of the pocket which results in rejected balls.
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You ever in MN? :)
 
realkingcobra said:
Sometimes, but i try to avoid the twin cities area, the tables are horrible around there...LOL if i started woking on the pool tables in MN I'd end up a state resident....LMAO
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The deepness of your table knowledge is really impressive. Im tempted to get a pool started to have you shipped down to Largo, Florida for a week or so to re-rail and recover our tables.

Lesh
 
realkingcobra said:
Sometimes, but i try to avoid the twin cities area, the tables are horrible around there...LOL if i started woking on the pool tables in MN I'd end up a state resident....LMAO
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Could you expand on this.

Mn has quite a few very nice rooms with owners who care about the equiptment. Many also play or have played fairly well.

I have been to very few states with a better rooms or equiptment.

When were you here last?
Where did you visit?
Why are they so bad?
 
couldnthinkof01 said:
Could you expand on this.

Mn has quite a few very nice rooms with owners who care about the equiptment. Many also play or have played fairly well.

I have been to very few states with a better rooms or equiptment.

When were you here last?
Where did you visit?
Why are they so bad?
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Two Stoodges and several other rooms, problem is when you look at a pool table, you're looking at the general look of the table as in it has cloth on it and the balls bounce off the cushions. When i look at a pool table, i look at everything done wrong to it by the table mechanic, not the wear n' tear put on it by customers playing pool.
 
realkingcobra said:
Two Stoodges and several other rooms, problem is when you look at a pool table, you're looking at the general look of the table as in it has cloth on it and the balls bounce off the cushions. When i look at a pool table, i look at everything done wrong to it by the table mechanic, not the wear n' tear put on it by customers playing pool.
Click to expand...

Stooges is almost all diamonds except maybe 10 gabriels
Crs all diamonds
Biffs all diamonds
Kato cue club all diamonds
Break room all diamonds
Eagles nest all diamonds
Jimmys all diamonds except maybe 3 gold growns 2 gabriel billiard tables and a snooker table.
I could go on.
Most were set up by diamond mechanics
Also I cant imagine a perfectionist such as yourself walking into most pool rooms in the world without getting a headache:wink:

Mn does have nice pool rooms and tables. Good mechanics at an "affordable price for a room owner" are hard to come by.
 
couldnthinkof01 said:
Stooges is almost all diamonds except maybe 10 gabriels
Crs all diamonds
Biffs all diamonds
Kato cue club all diamonds
Break room all diamonds
Eagles nest all diamonds
Jimmys all diamonds except maybe 3 gold growns 2 gabriel billiard tables and a snooker table.
I could go on.
Most were set up by diamond mechanics
Also I cant imagine a perfectionist such as yourself walking into most pool rooms in the world without getting a headache:wink:

Mn does have nice pool rooms and tables. Good mechanics at an "affordable price for a room owner" are hard to come by.
Click to expand...
I know the area has grown in Diamond tables, unfortunately from the work I've been witness to, the mechanics have failed to improve with the tables. Cloth still sprayglued, puckers under the rails, loose cloth. I also know there's a lot of red label Diamonds in MN as well, i was thinking about maming that my summertime work area as its to hot to work in the south at that time of the year, but unless the local mechanics want to spend some time working with me, i don't know what kind of changes i can inpact in the area.
 
realkingcobra said:
I know the area has grown in Diamond tables, unfortunately from the work I've been witness to, the mechanics have failed to improve with the tables. Cloth still sprayglued, puckers under the rails, loose cloth. I also know there's a lot of red label Diamonds in MN as well, i was thinking about maming that my summertime work area as its to hot to work in the south at that time of the year, but unless the local mechanics want to spend some time working with me, i don't know what kind of changes i can inpact in the area.
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Almost all red labels are gone or converted.

I for one would not be mad if you were able to work something out with the local guys. That would be awesome!


Come up for the summer. Weather is nice and the freshwater fishing is second to none.
 
A few years ago I bought a used GC4 with standard factory pockets. (5.1"?) I live in the Chicago area. I had a highly respected mechanic around here named Jerimy Chambers extend the sub - rails. At first I was going to go with 4.5" corners. Jerimy told me the process would shorten the shelf a bit from what exists in the factory pockets. I decided , therefore, to make them 4.3/8". IMO it's a PERFECTLY FAIR table. There's no way I'd want 4.1/4 pockets. I'm certain that would give the advantage to the table.
 
His Boy Elroy said:
A few years ago I bought a used GC4 with standard factory pockets. (5.1"?) I live in the Chicago area. I had a highly respected mechanic around here named Jerimy Chambers extend the sub - rails. At first I was going to go with 4.5" corners. Jerimy told me the process would shorten the shelf a bit from what exists in the factory pockets. I decided , therefore, to make them 4.3/8". IMO it's a PERFECTLY FAIR table. There's no way I'd want 4.1/4 pockets. I'm certain that would give the advantage to the table.
Click to expand...

4.5" corner pockets and 5" sides with the correct geometry on a 9 foot table are plenty tough. Just my opinion, but any tighter and it will eliminate any chance of dividing the pocket up into 3 sectors for shape. Even with these, I practice "ball in jaws" shape to every diamond on the table because we get that shot so many times.
 
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denwhit said:
4.5" corner pockets and 5" sides with the correct geometry on a 9 foot table are plenty tough. Just my opinion, but any tighter and it will eliminate any chance of diving the pocket up into 3 sectors for shape. Even with these, I practice "ball in jaws" shape to every diamond on the table because we get that shot so many times.
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When I say, "IMO it's a perfectly fair table," I judge that by feel. When I play, the instant, the ball leaves my tip, I know if I hit it "True enough" that I deserve a drop. I also know at that instant when I don't deserve a drop. With my pockets at 4.3/8" I get what I deserve and don't get what I don't deserve. I can't say this for sure; but, I highly suspect the situation isn't much different with 4.5" pockets. In fact, happy as I am with my pockets, if I had to do it again, I'd probably go with 4.5."I know one thing for certain. I wouldn't want them 4.1/4," nor would I want them 4.3/5."
 
couldnthinkof01 said:
Stooges is almost all diamonds except maybe 10 gabriels
Crs all diamonds
Biffs all diamonds
Kato cue club all diamonds
Break room all diamonds
Eagles nest all diamonds
Jimmys all diamonds except maybe 3 gold growns 2 gabriel billiard tables and a snooker table.
I could go on.
Most were set up by diamond mechanics
Also I cant imagine a perfectionist such as yourself walking into most pool rooms in the world without getting a headache:wink:

Mn does have nice pool rooms and tables. Good mechanics at an "affordable price for a room owner" are hard to come by.
Click to expand...
No kidding?

Affordable price for a room owner ?

My local one doesn't want to pay a really good mech to replace his cloth . And there are no 9" Diamonds there.
Then again, real good mechs are infamous for being to hard to deal with as well.
Be thankful there are still several pool halls open out there.
They are shutting down like mom and pop stores.
Most are barely paying rent and some.
 
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JoeyInCali said:
No kidding?

Affordable price for a room owner ?

My local one doesn't want to pay a really good mech to replace his cloth . And there are no 9" Diamonds there.
Then again, real good mechs are infamous for being to hard to deal with as well.
Be thankful there are still several pool halls open out there.
They are shutting down like mom and pop stores.
Most are barely paying rent and some.
Click to expand...

That is so true. Be thankful for any pool halls you still have. We have a really great one here but the 24 Brunswick Centennial and Anniversaries are getting in bad shape. Jim insists on recovering them using Championship cloth because his table mechanics can handle that cloth. They hate Simonis. I'm pretty sure they still have the 50-60 year old cushions. I think it would just be bad business to have a first rate pool hall with proper set up Diamond tables. Nice but not smart business with today's lack of pool interest. When the owner of this place decides he's had enough, it will close and all the tables will be sold.
We need Hollywood to come out with another "Color of Money" type of movie. I understand Japan converted hundreds of bowling alleys to pool halls after that movie.
We do have a nice bar in the area with 8 Diamond 7' tables and one 9' with 4.25" pockets. Play is free on the 7 foot tables from 11am until 4pm on weekdays. They charge $10 @ hour for play on the 9'. How many places offer that?
 
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