I will be coming into a beat up GC 1 and was curious on opinions about diamondizing/super crowning it. With a little research I've found that they had monarch cushions. And the best match to them would be k55. I am okay with not having a dead perfect playing surface, that way I don't have to alter the sub rail. I was just curious if anyone has done this with success.
Diamondizing a GC 1
- Thread starter KWise
- Start date
I know someone that did this to a GC III or a IV, he said after spending the money on the setup he could have pretty much bought a Diamond table to begin with.
Then what do you want to "diamondize" it for?
Glen a.k.a. RKC did it and it's true. You buy a Diamond if you want a Diamond. You buy a Gold Crown if you want a Gold Crown.
You can put a V8 in a Prius, but it's still not a Ferrari.
Stick with Super Speed cushions imo.
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I think he's just talking dimensions.
I doubt if anyone can tell from looking that playing surface is 1/4" narrower and shorter.
I may have misunderstood then. I thought he meant that adding the new cushions would change the height. I know that cushions too high or too low will mess up everything.
If you don't plan to have the sub-rails cut back, I think you are misusing the terms "Diamondizing/Super Crowning".
"Diamondizing" is the term commonly used when RKC reworks an old Gold Crown, with the same pocket openings that you'd see on a Diamond Table. As part of this, he also cuts the sub-rails back, to accept a modern day K55 cushion.
"Super Crown" is the name that Mark Gregory has given to the old Gold Crowns that he reworks. Again, as part of this work, he cuts the sub-rails back, to accept a modern day K55 cushion.
If you do not intend to have the sub-rails cut, these terms do not really apply. It would seem that you are more interested in tightening up the pockets. This can be done a couple of different ways.
Since you mentioned not wanting to have the sub-rails cut, I would guess that cost is the issue. Knowing this, the most cost effective way to tighten the pockets is by attaching a second set of pocket facings (double shimming). This will keep the same pocket angles that the table already has, and would not require having the cushions replaced.
The alternate method, and more preferred, is to have the sub-rails extended. This requires adding wood to the ends of the rails, and cutting it back to the desired dimensions. This does require a cushion replacement, but it greatly improves the playability of the pockets, and allows the pocket angles to be adjusted to different specs.
The cost of extending the sub-rails is generally fairly high, unless you plan to do it yourself. If you plan to have someone else do it for you, you should choose a mechanic that has the ability to cut the sub-rails back at the same time. The additional cost will not be that much, and it would make the perfect time to have that work done, as you would have to have the cushions replaced anyway.
Where's Glen when you need him and for that matter, where is Glen with his Alias when you need him?? 
Doubling or tripling the pocket facings is the wrong way to tighten a pocket, and destroys how the pocket plays naturally. Either put new rubber on, and extend the sub-rail, or keep them the way they are, with just new cushions.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
thanks for the replies guys. my bad though for not being specific... yes I did mean the dimensions of the table and yes I do not want to cut the rails. I know that there is a slight variance in allowed nose height so I've found that k55 cushions is possible, because I know that the cushions will need to be replaced. I wasn't thinking fully as to about the term diamondizing or supercrowning, but now that I am, I guess I will have to extend the rails and cut them to do it right. I just don't want to spend a lot, because this is actually a secondary table for me, not my main practice table. I'll have to think about what exactly I want to do. What about just replacing current cushions facings with thicker ones, NOT double shimming, would that be beneficial? And further on that note, has anyone used proform/proline cloth? I don't need simonis on this second table, but it does need refelting. Thanks in advanced.
So...you're referring to both of these tables as your "practice" tables; therefore, I'm assuming somewhere there has to be a "competition" table. I'm really hoping it's located at a pool room.
This is a bit long winded, but it's based on my experience with a similar situation.. So, if ALL of the following apply to you, go for it:
- Table is pretty cheap.
- Table doesn't have any major "structural" issues (missing major parts/a lot of small ones, cracked/broken slates, etc.,).
- You understand that having a good mechanic deliver the table, replace the cushions, assemble it, and cover it with good quality cloth (Simonis or similar) is likely going to cost you around $1,000.
- You're willing to handle a lot of the "cosmetics" on your own (re-finishing the wood, purchasing/replacing the little "bits" such as pockets, etc.,) to keep the cost down
- MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL: you already know a good mechanic, or can get referrals from folks who have seen and are qualified to judge his work.
Basically, if you're paying $500 for the table, expect to have ~$1,800+ in it by the time you buy the refinishing supplies/cosmetic bits and have it properly assembled/recovered.
If you aren't going to have it done 100%, don't touch it.. it really ends up being a waste of money to do silly stuff like only replacing some cushions or having new cloth put on dead rails. It's also basically a waste to have table that plays top notch but looks beat to hell.. Character is OK, busted up is not. People may tell you different, but realize that trying to save a few hours and a bit of cash by not making the table look as good as something you'll likely regret.
In my case, I have roughly $2,600 invested in my table, but I went well beyond what was required to have a "nice" table. Breaks down like this:
Paid $800 for a GC3 in fair shape (mis-matched rails, but all of the parts were there and cosmetic damage was of the scratch and dent variety).
Spent about 25 hours and $100 in supplies to completely repair/refinish all of the wood
Spent roughly $1,600 to have a well known mechanic completely rebuild the rails (sub-rail extensions for tighter pockets, new Artemis rubber, GC4 frame fix, re-drill slate bolt holes that were screwed up at the factory, etc.,) and then assemble and cover it in Simonis 860HR.
Then spent another ~$100 to buy/install new drop pockets just because the old ones were looking bad.
Again though, I went well beyond what I needed to have a "nice" table. Had I just had the cushions replaced and table assembled/recovered by a local mechanic, I would have been at/below the $1,800 mark. After buying the table and adding up the cost to get it where I wanted it, I was wondering if I should have just sold the GC3 and dropped the ~$6k on a tourney used Diamond. Simple math answered that for me.. $6,000 and $2,600 are VERY far apart, and I didn't feel the Diamond would be $3,400 better.
- Table is pretty cheap.
- Table doesn't have any major "structural" issues (missing major parts/a lot of small ones, cracked/broken slates, etc.,).
- You understand that having a good mechanic deliver the table, replace the cushions, assemble it, and cover it with good quality cloth (Simonis or similar) is likely going to cost you around $1,000.
- You're willing to handle a lot of the "cosmetics" on your own (re-finishing the wood, purchasing/replacing the little "bits" such as pockets, etc.,) to keep the cost down
- MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL: you already know a good mechanic, or can get referrals from folks who have seen and are qualified to judge his work.
Basically, if you're paying $500 for the table, expect to have ~$1,800+ in it by the time you buy the refinishing supplies/cosmetic bits and have it properly assembled/recovered.
If you aren't going to have it done 100%, don't touch it.. it really ends up being a waste of money to do silly stuff like only replacing some cushions or having new cloth put on dead rails. It's also basically a waste to have table that plays top notch but looks beat to hell.. Character is OK, busted up is not. People may tell you different, but realize that trying to save a few hours and a bit of cash by not making the table look as good as something you'll likely regret.
In my case, I have roughly $2,600 invested in my table, but I went well beyond what was required to have a "nice" table. Breaks down like this:
Paid $800 for a GC3 in fair shape (mis-matched rails, but all of the parts were there and cosmetic damage was of the scratch and dent variety).
Spent about 25 hours and $100 in supplies to completely repair/refinish all of the wood
Spent roughly $1,600 to have a well known mechanic completely rebuild the rails (sub-rail extensions for tighter pockets, new Artemis rubber, GC4 frame fix, re-drill slate bolt holes that were screwed up at the factory, etc.,) and then assemble and cover it in Simonis 860HR.
Then spent another ~$100 to buy/install new drop pockets just because the old ones were looking bad.
Again though, I went well beyond what I needed to have a "nice" table. Had I just had the cushions replaced and table assembled/recovered by a local mechanic, I would have been at/below the $1,800 mark. After buying the table and adding up the cost to get it where I wanted it, I was wondering if I should have just sold the GC3 and dropped the ~$6k on a tourney used Diamond. Simple math answered that for me.. $6,000 and $2,600 are VERY far apart, and I didn't feel the Diamond would be $3,400 better.
This was equivalent to my first thought process.
While I agree with most of this, I feel that it's a bit harsh to say that stacking facings "destroys how the pocket plays".
It is mostly dependent on the material of the facings and the durometer rating. Using softer facings, more similar to the cushion hardness, should help the playability. Granted, it will not be as nice as having extended sub-rails, but it is certainly a more cost effective option, without the potential for causing damage to the table.
You can certainly use thicker facings to tighten the pockets. Just keep in mind, it will have a similar effect to stacking facings. The thicker you go, the more unnatural it will play.
I don't have any experience with Proform or Proline, but I can recommend Granito as a cheaper alternative to Simonis. I have also heard very positive things about Championship Pro-Am.
I bought a used, mint condition, 9 foot Gold Crown for $2300 and paid $300 to have it delivered. A highly regarded mechanic here on Chicago did a sub- rail extension and reduced the pockets from 5-1/8 and 5-1/2 to 4-3/8 and 5.00. He also gave me the Artemis cushions that Diamond uses, and simonis 860 HR. Along with the set-up, he charged me $1400.
The bounce is just perfect. There's nothing else to say. I love the pockets. I wouldn't want to change them a bit. The table basically looks brand new. All this for $4000. That's a lot of money, but it's a whole lot less than a new diamond would have cost.
I don't get it. Are you dissaproving with what RKC does? If so - why? For tables that are going to re-covered anyway, he informs owners that if he installs Artemis cushions, they'll last longer than the speedy's. He also informs them that it's his opinion that the Artemis' bounce better than the speedy's and if he recalibrates the rails to fit the Artemis cushions, a better bounce than the previous one will result.
Are you saying the better bounce will somehow produce a problem in that it will reveal an incompatibility with other playing characteristics of the GC, resulting in a table that will play worse overall than it had previously? If so, where exactly does the problem lie? I've heard this argument before. I don't get it, unless your disagreeing with the opinions of RKC and the other mechanics who are of the same opinion. If there are other mechanics with other views, I'd like to read them.