Did I just get Hustled?

[MacGyver]

I just got back from an out of town pool hall(away for holiday) and someone attempted to hustle me.


He was laying it on really thick(fake back story, the whole 9 yards), but since I was almost leaving and didn't care since I knew I wasnt playing I didnt call him on it.

Anyway, before I went I could tell he at least wanted a small score so he wanted to bet me $100 for $100 on a coin flip(my own coin on pool table).

I won twice in a row and was up $200 when I decided I'd call it quits(ok I'm a bit of a nit but 50/50 for $200 too much for me, plus he knew I was suppose to leave like 20 minutes earlier and was stringing me on to gamble).

He got a little ansy and then looked over at the coin(legit coin), but wanted to test it since I won "Each and every time we played"(I figured this was his "out" if he lost tosses over and over).

Then, and I swear it all looked legit, we took turns flipping the coin over the now contested money(he said he thought I was scamming him) and it came up heads, then heads again, and then heads yet again.

It kept coming up heads for 8 times after the 2 we were betting on(10 in a row straight).

Now, I know the odds of this so I wasnt concerned but he was playing it up like he wasnt going to pay(he had taken money off the table including my winnings). He however acted as if he was convinced it was a trick coin or something.

Finally seeing as I was out of town and he looked pretty serious(plus I was alone and it looked like he had a road buddy), I talked him into giving me my $100 back, as the second bet was with his own money(my winnings) and I didnt care about it.... and just calling it even and I left.

So anyway, is this a common scam(betting on coins and then blowing up?) or what?

Can anyone provide more info on this scam or help explain what happened as I'm a bit confused on how much he was playing me.


Finally, and I don't bet very much at all(I'm not that good), but even though money was on the table, he snatched it and didnt want to pay.... other than taking a picture and exposing him on as many pool forums and whatnot as a hustler/road player and also stealing if he doesnt win, is there anything short of violence to induce someone to pay?

Thanks!

 

[BAZARUS]

I just got back from an out of town pool hall(away for holiday) and someone attempted to hustle me.


He was laying it on really thick(fake back story, the whole 9 yards), but since I was almost leaving and didn't care since I knew I wasnt playing I didnt call him on it.

Anyway, before I went I could tell he at least wanted a small score so he wanted to bet me $100 for $100 on a coin flip(my own coin on pool table).

I won twice in a row and was up $200 when I decided I'd call it quits(ok I'm a bit of a nit but 50/50 for $200 too much for me, plus he knew I was suppose to leave like 20 minutes earlier and was stringing me on to gamble).

He got a little ansy and then looked over at the coin(legit coin), but wanted to test it since I won "Each and every time we played"(I figured this was his "out" if he lost tosses over and over).

Then, and I swear it all looked legit, we took turns flipping the coin over the now contested money(he said he thought I was scamming him) and it came up heads, then heads again, and then heads yet again.

It kept coming up heads for 8 times after the 2 we were betting on(10 in a row straight).

Now, I know the odds of this so I wasnt concerned but he was playing it up like he wasnt going to pay(he had taken money off the table including my winnings). He however acted as if he was convinced it was a trick coin or something.

Finally seeing as I was out of town and he looked pretty serious(plus I was alone and it looked like he had a road buddy), I talked him into giving me my $100 back, as the second bet was with his own money(my winnings) and I didnt care about it.... and just calling it even and I left.

So anyway, is this a common scam(betting on coins and then blowing up?) or what?

Can anyone provide more info on this scam or help explain what happened as I'm a bit confused on how much he was playing me.


Finally, and I don't bet very much at all(I'm not that good), but even though money was on the table, he snatched it and didnt want to pay.... other than taking a picture and exposing him on as many pool forums and whatnot as a hustler/road player and also stealing if he doesnt win, is there anything short of violence to induce someone to pay?

Thanks!

Ods for tossing each side of a coin are 50/50. Its possible that you have been scammed on the coin which has heads on bout sides. I have seen coin like that before.

 

[OldHasBeen]

You didn't get hustled - You got strong-armed.

That was no hustle. You should have picked up the money after each flip and put it in your pocket. Then put up for the next as it comes along. When this guy saw he could run a bluff on you, he did. You had two choices - Either hit him upside the head with the butt of a cue - OR - do what you did.
I think you did the right thing.

TY & GL

 

[ironman]

That was no hustle. You should have picked up the money after each flip and put it in your pocket. Then put up for the next as it comes along. When this guy saw he could run a bluff on you, he did. You had two choices - Either hit him upside the head with the butt of a cue - OR - do what you did.
I think you did the right thing.

TY & GL

Well, He sumed that one up in just three short lines.

 

[Snapshot9]

Maybe ...

That was no hustle. You should have picked up the money after each flip and put it in your pocket. Then put up for the next as it comes along. When this guy saw he could run a bluff on you, he did. You had two choices - Either hit him upside the head with the butt of a cue - OR - do what you did.
I think you did the right thing.

TY & GL

OHB is right on with his answer, but this actually could have been
the ole 'intimidation' hustle where they see how it goes, and if they
win they laugh and joke around about being lucky, but if they come
out a loser, they try various intimidation techniques (including using
a buddy or two) to get you to give there money back so they don't
lose anything. This involves questioning the process, accusing you
of using a rigged coin or of being an asshole or cheating them in some
way or some other con, but their purpose is to get their money back.
YOU HAVE TO DECIDE WHETHER YOU ARE BEING PLAYED OR NOT.

One suggestion: If you flip in the future, do NOT use a common coin.
They might be planning on switching coins on you at a certain point, like
a two headed coin. At least use a half dollar or silver dollar, or I got
a anniversary coin from the VNEA one year in Vegas that I use to
carry all the time.

 

[MO4]

The real lesson here is don't gamble alone in a unfamiliar room with unknown people.

 

[PoolSleuth]

That was no hustle. You should have picked up the money after each flip and put it in your pocket. Then put up for the next as it comes along. When this guy saw he could run a bluff on you, he did. You had two choices - Either hit him upside the head with the butt of a cue - OR - do what you did.
I think you did the right thing.

TY & GL

Good advice.

 

[Donovan]

OK here is the basic hustle with the coin flip.

The guy has a double sided heads coin and a double sided tails coin both palmed in his non-flipping hand. He flips your (I am guessing a quarter, they are the most common, but these do come in every denomination) coin. If he wins early no sweat, if he loses early, the distraction kicks in and the switch happens to prove it is a bad quarter. Notice you did not get to flip the coin to prove it was real, only he did. That way he could switch it back upon another distraction or simply by slight of hand. Simple to do really. Read some magic books for this. This way he can't lose.

Rules, you flip the coin every time and you inspect both sides every time before you flip the coin. It is still possible to get cheated by a weighted coin,
but much less likely.



NOW, I'm going to teach you something here that I should probably not be putting on a forum, but everyone here is my friend, so here it is.

70% of all people who call a flipped coin, call heads. FACT!

The outcome on every flip no matter how many times you flip a coin is still 50.50. FACT!

If you want to win 20% more flips during your entire lifetime.........you always be the one who flips the coin. And yes, this is with a regular coin! FACT!

If you found this to be enlightening or interesting, hit my scales in the upper right hand corner and give me some reputation. (Just trying to be like Billy the Kid from 'Young Guns')



This was passed down to me and I am now sharing it with all of you. Some people know this already, but most people can't even figure it out when you tell them. I'm not trying to be all knowing or anything, but I believe this little bit of knowledge will help you as much as anything in the world of gambling.

Because of this, I get the first break much more often than my opponents do. FACT!

 

[DaveK]

This thread reaffirms my belief that many forms of gambling are a sickness ... an addiction to the rush ... or do some pay their way through college by gambling on flipping a coin these days ?

Dave

 

[Snapshot9]

Notes

This thread reaffirms my belief that many forms of gambling are a sickness ... an addiction to the rush ... or do some pay their way through college by gambling on flipping a coin these days ?

Dave

No, but I paid my way through college by playing Pool as I could not
make on a $175 a month for living expenses and going to college both.
(1971 to 1973 - lived in Houston, graduated from San Jacinto (A.A.) and
the University of Houston (B.B.A.))

Facts about coin flipping were interesting and known, BUT per my
observation over many many years is:

If the coin is flipped right (spinning rapidly in air) and lands on Pool table on the green, that 'Tails' comes up about 72% of the time (for determining opening break) UNLESS every so often if it is determined to be a 'Heads' night, the reverse seems to be true, heads comes up about 72% of the time
on that night only.

This does not apply if your opponent tosses the coin funny like a backhand
underneath type flip or slapping their hand down over the coin into the table
as it is descending in the air. I do not care for either of those methods,
and will make them flip again if it is a 'funky' or 'not right' flip.

If I am flipping and they happen to call it before I flip (which I always do
legally BTW), I find that I can increase the odds in my favor just by
varying the height of the flip, and I always let it land on the green, not
my hand.

 

[uwate]

OK here is the basic hustle with the coin flip.

The guy has a double sided heads coin and a double sided tails coin both palmed in his non-flipping hand. He flips your (I am guessing a quarter, they are the most common, but these do come in every denomination) coin. If he wins early no sweat, if he loses early, the distraction kicks in and the switch happens to prove it is a bad quarter. Notice you did not get to flip the coin to prove it was real, only he did. That way he could switch it back upon another distraction or simply by slight of hand. Simple to do really. Read some magic books for this. This way he can't lose.

Rules, you flip the coin every time and you inspect both sides every time before you flip the coin. It is still possible to get cheated by a weighted coin,
but much less likely.



NOW, I'm going to teach you something here that I should probably not be putting on a forum, but everyone here is my friend, so here it is.

70% of all people who call a flipped coin, call heads. FACT!

The outcome on every flip no matter how many times you flip a coin is still 50.50. FACT!

If you want to win 20% more flips during your entire lifetime.........you always be the one who flips the coin. And yes, this is with a regular coin! FACT!

If you found this to be enlightening or interesting, hit my scales in the upper right hand corner and give me some reputation. (Just trying to be like Billy the Kid from 'Young Guns')



This was passed down to me and I am now sharing it with all of you. Some people know this already, but most people can't even figure it out when you tell them. I'm not trying to be all knowing or anything, but I believe this little bit of knowledge will help you as much as anything in the world of gambling.

Because of this, I get the first break much more often than my opponents do. FACT!

Isnt the odds of each individual coin toss 50/50. So even if all of your opponents call heads, isnt the odds still equal for that individual flip. At first I was thinking your math is right, but now I am not so sure....

 

[Guru]

That was no hustle. You should have picked up the money after each flip and put it in your pocket. Then put up for the next as it comes along. When this guy saw he could run a bluff on you, he did. You had two choices - Either hit him upside the head with the butt of a cue - OR - do what you did.
I think you did the right thing.

TY & GL

I typically erred on the side of head-busting, but I think you're right.

 

[Snapshot9]

Not really ...

Isnt the odds of each individual coin toss 50/50. So even if all of your opponents call heads, isnt the odds still equal for that individual flip. At first I was thinking your math is right, but now I am not so sure....

The odds are not 50/50 because it was proven, for a quarter anyway, that
the head side of a quarter from the horizontal middle is heavier than the
tail half, which would cause a tendency for the head side to end up on
the bottom more than 50/50 if the coin lands on a flat surface, and not the
hand.

 

[The Kiss]

The chances of heads or tails is 50/50....But the odds of flipping 8 in a row or more heads is not 50 /50.. Eventually a tails has to hit and the likely hood is increased with each heads flipped....The odds somebody might run out of money is a better bet...

 

[Andrew Manning]

The chances of heads or tails is 50/50....But the odds of flipping 8 in a row or more heads is not 50 /50.. Eventually a tails has to hit and the likely hood is increased with each heads flipped....The odds somebody might run out of money is a better bet...

There's a lot of fuzzy probability being thrown around here. The coin does not know about past flips. Even if it came up heads 2000 times in a row, and it would seem that it is extremely "due" to come up tails, the odds on the next flip are still 50/50 (or as Scott points out, something close to but not exactly 50/50 because coins are not perfectly symmetrical).

Also, going back to assuming the probability on one flip is 50/50 (because it makes the math easier), if I call heads 100 times out of 100, I'm going to get half of them right. If I call heads 50 times out of 100, I'm still going to get about half of them right. Donovan's assertion that you can use people's tendency to call heads against them (since they'll call heads 70% of the time and it will only come up 50% of the time) is incorrect. If you want to win about half the coin flips in your life, call heads. Or tails. Or any combination thereof. If your winning percentage is very far from 50%, it just means you're a lucky or unlucky person. Or that you have a trick coin.

-Andrew
-Andrew

 

[Get_A_Grip]

Always 50/50 if equal weighted coin...

Yep, Andrew has it right. The odds are always 50/50 for any single flip of the coin. It's only over a long period of time that the 50/50 probablilty will be realized.

It's similar to why when playing Blackjack if you keep doubling your bet each time you loose a hand...you may likely go broke before you hit the table limit. Although in the long-run, if you play the basic strategy...the house will have a very small advantage over you and you should only loose a small amount to the house over the long haul. However, in the short-term you can easily loose 10 or more hands in a row...and go busted if you keep doubling your bet.

I also find it interesting that when playing roulette they typically have a electronic board above the table to show the last numbers (and colors) that were hit. But basing your next bet assuming that a different color or number is due to come is kind-of silly...the ball doesn't not know that it may have landed on a red number the last ten spins in a row, so there is NOT a higher probability that the ball will land on a black (or green) number on the next spin...

 

[henho]

The best way to calculate probability of something that has two mutually exclusive outcomes, like a coin toss, is to use a modification of the binomial theorem called a Bernoulli Trial.

For example, let's say you are going to make 13 coin tosses and want to know what the probability of getting heads 10 times is.

The formula is: probability = N!/X!(N-X!) Where N is the total number of trials (throws) and X is the number of desired outcomes (coming up heads).

So, the formula would be 13!/10!(13!-10!), which equals .252, meaning that you will flip heads 25.2% of the time.

 

[Andrew Manning]

The best way to calculate probability of something that has two mutually exclusive outcomes, like a coin toss, is to use a modification of the binomial theorem called a Bernoulli Trial.

For example, let's say you are going to make 13 coin tosses and want to know what the probability of getting heads 10 times is.

The formula is: probability = N!/X!(N-X!) Where N is the total number of trials (throws) and X is the number of desired outcomes (coming up heads).

So, the formula would be 13!/10!(13!-10!), which equals .252, meaning that you will flip heads 25.2% of the time.

.252 sure is the probability of getting heads 10 times out of 13. But if you call heads 10 times out of 13, the expected value for how many of those 13 flips you get right is 6.5.

Put another way, calling heads 10 times, you're expected to get 5 of them right, and calling tails the remaining 3 times, you're expected to get 1.5 of them right. Add that up, you've got 6.5, which non-coincidentally is exactly half of the 13 flips.

So if you bet a dollar on each flip, no matter what combination of calling heads and tails you employ, your expected outcome is to break even. Always assuming, of course, that the probability of one flip coming up heads is .5.

-Andrew

 

[fred_in_hoboken]

The best way to calculate probability of something that has two mutually exclusive outcomes, like a coin toss, is to use a modification of the binomial theorem called a Bernoulli Trial.

For example, let's say you are going to make 13 coin tosses and want to know what the probability of getting heads 10 times is.

The formula is: probability = N!/X!(N-X!) Where N is the total number of trials (throws) and X is the number of desired outcomes (coming up heads).

So, the formula would be 13!/10!(13!-10!), which equals .252, meaning that you will flip heads 25.2% of the time.

I think you need to check your math.

For 13 coin flips, there are 16,384 possible outcomes. Of those, in 572 (or about 3.5%) there will be 10 heads.

The correct formula is N!/X!(N-X).

13!/(10!*3) = (13*12*11/3) = 572

Regardless, this has no impact on the probability of an independent coin toss.

 

[Cory in DC]

For 13 coin flips, there are 16,384 possible outcomes. Of those, in 572 (or about 3.5%) there will be 10 heads.

The correct formula is N!/X!(N-X).

13!/(10!*3) = (13*12*11/3) = 572

Regardless, this has no impact on the probability of an independent coin toss.

You got the right answer, but I think your numbers are doubled. There should be 2^13 = 8,192 possible sequences of heads and tails stemming from 13 coin flips.

Also, there's a typo on your formula (and Henho's). The formula for "n Choose r", in this case "13 choose 10", is

n!/[k!(n-k)!], with the "!" outside the "(n-k)".

So the number of sequences with exactly 10 heads in 13 flips is

13!/(10!*3!) = (11*12*13)/(2*3) = 286.

So 286/8192 = .0349, or about 3.5%.

And of course, history has no impact on the probability of a heads in the next toss of a fair coin. For those who disagree, I have the following proposition. We'll flip a coin until either 4 heads in a row come up or 4 tails in a row come up (it won't take long for this to occur).

Let's say 4 heads just came up. We'll then bet on the next flip. Since you believe a tail is now more likely, if I let you take tails then you should be willing to bet $125 against my $100.

Similarly, whenever 4 tails come up, you give me 5:4 odds and you get heads on the next flip, collecting $100 if it's heads and paying $125 if it's tails.

We'll freeze up some and see how it goes. If you think 5:4 is too much to give, we'll flip until there's either 6H or 6T in a row (making the opposite outcome on the 7th flip nearly certain!), and then wager on the next toss.

Cory