Another good Andy Granatelli read is They Call Me Mr. 500. Always wanted to see it turned into a movie.
Did I just witness History?
- Thread starter pwd72s
- Start date
I think that's the Granatelli book I was referencing, I couldn't remember the title even though I had just read it a couple of months before. Its a great read for those interested in racing.
After Tony killed that kid on the racetrack, I have no stomach for watching/listening to him.
Please, gimme a break. He didn't do anything on purpose. That kid got out of his car on a poorly lit track, walked out towards TS's car and got hit. If this was any other driver we would never even heard of this. The family saw $$$$$ signs and hired a ambulance chaser.
On purpose has nothing to do with it. Accidently killing someone will still land you in jail in most situations....unless of course you are wealthy enough to buy your way out of it.
Sad part is he's still a hot head with no self-control. A few years ago, he was running a sprint at my local track and a guy walking through the pits mouthed off to him. Tony gave him the finger. The guy said, "I have two of those" and gave Tony the double bird. Tony lost his shit and ran the guy down and punched him in the side of the head.
I'm guessing he had to write a check after that incident too. Though probably not as big as the one to the Ward family.
Let's see, the kid was on pot, wearing a black driver's suit on a dark track, and got down in the groove in front of Tony to act the fool. The only difference trying to avoid the kid if there was time would have been hitting the kid with the front or back of the car. Either way, with the kid getting himself in a stupid position, he was the only one that could have gotten himself back out of it. There was no move the driver could have made to miss him.
I have never been a Tony Stewart fan. However he wrote the kid's family a big check they didn't have coming and it cost him millions other places. He wasn't any part at fault in any way shape or form! I have driven sprint cars and had verbally committed to sponsoring someone when they did something about as stupid as the kid did. Cost the driver at least 10,000 to 20,000 and maybe an engine or two in the early eighties.
I have been around my share of racing deaths and serious accidents since the sixties. Some are "shit happens" deaths but often they are preventable. The kid high and showing his ass got him killed, not Tony.
I understand your position, there are pool players I refuse to watch including some with sterling reputations who are or were scum. I watched that accident with Tony which would be more accurately called an incident, over two dozen times. Not a thing Tony or any other driver could do. Brakes, throttle, or steering wheel weren't going to prevent the kid from getting hit when he got that far down in the groove.
Hu
I have never been a Tony Stewart fan. However he wrote the kid's family a big check they didn't have coming and it cost him millions other places. He wasn't any part at fault in any way shape or form! I have driven sprint cars and had verbally committed to sponsoring someone when they did something about as stupid as the kid did. Cost the driver at least 10,000 to 20,000 and maybe an engine or two in the early eighties.
I have been around my share of racing deaths and serious accidents since the sixties. Some are "shit happens" deaths but often they are preventable. The kid high and showing his ass got him killed, not Tony.
I understand your position, there are pool players I refuse to watch including some with sterling reputations who are or were scum. I watched that accident with Tony which would be more accurately called an incident, over two dozen times. Not a thing Tony or any other driver could do. Brakes, throttle, or steering wheel weren't going to prevent the kid from getting hit when he got that far down in the groove.
Hu
I'm not going to get into a lengthy debate about this, but I am curious if either of you watched "The Hit"?
If you haven't, I would recommend you do with an open mind. There were four things that for me stood out and formed my opinion of the incident.
1. The testimony of the female driver who was behind Tony.
2. Tony's original statement to the police where he stated that he saw Ward coming down the track, in front of the car that was in front of Tony. (proving he was well aware of Ward being on the track before he hit him)
3. The Toxicology expert that analyzed and explained post-mortem THC readings and how they differ from blood tests from a living person.
4. The paths and movements of Ward and the cars shown in the accident reconstruction.
I looked it over very carefully back then, over and over again. I have never been a Tony Stewart fan so if there was any bias it was against Tony. However, I try to be fair and I have driven dirt including time in late models and sprint cars. Tony might have missed him had he been in a late model, same horsepower or very close but a car that behaves differently. No matter what Tony did sitting in a sprint car, his car was going to hit the kid unless the kid did something. By the time TS could see the youngster was directly in front of him, any move he made would have been wrong. Just the way a sprint car behaves.
A combination of deep pockets and a form of survivor's guilt made him an easy target. From a business standpoint it was hard to condemn a young man that lost his life too. Had he done the same thing in front of anyone else driving a sprint car he would have been hit. Tony expecting miracles of himself was just because of regret. It is a shame the young man was killed but it rests squarely on his own shoulders.
Hu
The Old Jaybird
Well-known member
My home town is just south of Springfield IL, home of one of the best dirt mile tracks in the country. Remember when USAC cars ran at the State Fair track, dirt champ cars with the "Indy" drivers. Back when all of those guys could drive many disciplines. Tony Stewart was the same, he won a LOT of dirt oval races before he advanced to pavement and NASCAR. NHRA is just another challenge for him. I've gone 200 in a stock car, can I go 300 in a fuel dragster.
Ken Schrader is cut from the same cloth, race anything, anywhere, anytime. And he is still going, approaching Medicare age.
Note: Looked it up, Kenny has been on Medicare for 5 years, he is 70. Wow, I really feel old now.
Ken Schrader is cut from the same cloth, race anything, anywhere, anytime. And he is still going, approaching Medicare age.
Note: Looked it up, Kenny has been on Medicare for 5 years, he is 70. Wow, I really feel old now.
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I think if you watch the documentary, you might change your mind about some of those opinions. There were multiple camera views that were not available back when it happened from track cameras as well as GoPro's on other cars etc.
Probably the most damning thing was Tony's statement to the sheriff a couple hours after it happened which was sealed up until a few years ago. If I remember correctly his statement was something to the effect of "I thought the car in front of me was going to hit him". I think he used the other drivers name or car number on the statement, but I don't remember it anymore. So, he clearly did see him well before he struck him and the other camera footage shows the kid didn't come down the track in front of Tony. He stayed in the same place he was when Tony first saw him, which was before the other car went past him. That other car and Tony's car were more or less on the same arc through the corner until Tony hit the throttle and drifted up the track. Had Tony done nothing he would have rolled right by him.
In the incident reconstruction they did it showed Ward's upper body moved away from Tony's car when Tony hit the throttle.
I don't think Tony meant to hit him. I do 100% believe he intended to "stone" him. Which Tony himself said in filmed testimony "happens all the time" at dirt tracks all over the country. He just didn't expect the car to drift up the track like it did.
Again, it's been a few years since I watched it. It was on Amazon Prime at the time. I'm sure it still exists somewhere for streaming.
I don't remember if I watched the documentary or not. The footage I saw showed the kid going down deeper into the groove after the car in front of Tony went by. Only one camera but it seems something like that would be hard to be an illusion.
I don't really have a dog in this fight not knowing anyone involved. Sure looked like Tony did nothing wrong in the footage I saw. Of course the other driver was in the wrong for even being on the track but that is something too common to make a big deal out of it. Silly behavior I never partook in but I have seen that countless times.
Whatever the details a young man died a senseless death. There is no escaping that.
Hu
Kenny is the best! Met him a couple of times in the pits at some dirt track races. I know he recently ran a race in Alaska. I think that only leave Hawaii for states he has not raced in, but I could be wrong about that.
Before you take the documentary as gospel you have to look at what their agenda was. There is always money involved which means someone had an agenda. There's 3 sides to every story, mine, yours, and the truth. Just sayin.
It has to at minimum be negligent to be criminal. Someone walking out on a racetrack and getting hit by a racecar is not negligence on the part of the driver.
I've watched that vid more than a few times. The lighting was horrible as it is at most local dirt ovals. Secondly there was a car directly in front of Stewart that had to have at least partially blocked his vision. Thirdly you have this idiot(RIP kid) running out into this situation. Look, it was a tragic accident but there was no criminal intent here. Yes, Stewart actions did result in a death but the matter was one for civil court and that's how it played out four yrs after the wreck. I still stick to my belief that the family saw huge $$$$ with it being T. Stewart and not some local yokel weekend warrior. Had that been the case no one would have ever heard of this incident.
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If you haven’t watched “the hit” you really haven’t seen the whole story.
I certainly don’t get the impression the Ward family is short on $$$.
You may be right, if it hadn’t been a famous driver we would have never heard of it, but at the same time, if it hadn’t been a wealthy, famous driver, that driver would likely be in prison.
Other things can be valid. Even reconstructions can be, but they can also be total horseshit. I have seen a double handful of reconstructions of auto wrecks in courtrooms. I have seen some valid, some no way resembled the wrecks. I have also witnessed the aftermath of hundreds if not thousands of wrecks as a wrecker owner/operator running for the city, state, and sheriff's department. Sometimes what happened is obvious from the position of the vehicles but sometimes things seem impossible too.
Ramblings from my wrecker days:
One I still scratch my head about, a full sized truck with normal factory tires sitting sideways on top of a full sized car at a level intersection. Both vehicles barely had a scratch on them, looked like it had been carefully set in place up there. Another pick-up was almost undamaged except the four tires and wheels knocked off of it sitting on a concrete slab in a natural gas distribution station.
I got a call one morning and kept driving around and around the block, no wreck in sight. There was an old sheet metal building, huge, held a metal works. It had been put together with big wooden beams bolted to the ground and then wrapped in tin. The car hit one of those beams, knocked it up in the air, went inside the building, and the beam and wall fell back in place! No overhead door nearby, equipment and scrap everywhere, how in the hell was I supposed to retrieve this car?
All to say, strange stuff happens and reconstructions are best called reimaginings of what happened. I have seen people railroaded on criminal charges due to reconstructions too. They look impressive in a courtroom but are largely meaningless.
I was driving my one-ton wrecker, dropped off of a steep bridge over the Red River, and got broadsided. Got broadsided by a man on flipflops! He jumped across the highway into the side of my wrecker. When the police get there he is laying in the other lane with a leg curled around like sausage and a toe stuck in his ear. So much road rash that while the only major wounds were where bone punctured skin from the inside, roadrash left an outline of his body on the road when they moved it.
The incident happened where the highway cut through a hill and there was a park at the top of it. After I told my story a witness came up that had a perfect almost 90 degree overhead view from the park. Without hearing my story, he repeated it almost word for word. I was a happy camper. Then a third witness that had been coming up the highway from the other direction came up. I wasn't happy. One corroborating witness was great. a second witness and third person telling the story, that sucked and the odds were one in hundreds or less of the story matching. It did!!
I had an outside mirror folded back into my arm, scrape and bruise, no other damage so I blew it off. With less than fifteen minutes left of the year and a day it was possible to file suit against me, I had a lawsuit filed on behalf of the man that ran into me. It was filed at the last moment so I couldn't countersue had I been inclined.
Normally, I was automatically in the wrong because of a crazy disparity of force law! If a vehicle and pedestrian make contact, the vehicle operator is liable. However, the accident happened when he escaped state property and was on a state road so somehow that made me not liable. Surprise, my insurance still paid some, I had no say so. Insurance claims drive up rates but the insurance customer gets no say as to whether they are paid out or not! Fortunately I had sold the business or the increased rates would have been multiple times what the insurance company paid out.
Reconstructions can show crazy accidents like that happening entirely differently and often do. Lawyers love "experts" and drawings, and reconstructions. All looks like real evidence when it is pure theater for the jury. Back to the Sprint car deal, it was impossible for the other driver to be where Tony hit him without him moving there after the car in front of Tony went by or that car would have hit him. The young man did something ridiculous and essentially killed himself. It's sad, but nobody else deserves blame.
Hu
I've recently been hearing there is a growing movement to no longer allow "eyewitness" testimony in court because it is so unreliable. They've been doing some studies where actors stage an incident and then they question people about what happened and in multiple cases two people who were standing next to each other have different stories.
The reconstruction showed the first car turned down slightly and when Tony hit the throttle his car drifted up the track. The driver in the car behind Tony said his tires were turned to the right as he drifted.
I agree the reconstruction can be misleading and the whole thing came across a little biased. Hard to say if that was intent or just because only one side is willing to discuss it. The part that really changed my view was his statement to police and video testimony. Neither of those did him any favors.
In any case, there's only one person alive who really knows what happened.