Did Karen Corr scratch?

[AuntyDan]

I was watching the 2004 WPBA Nationals final on ESPN between Karen Corr and Gerda Hofstatter. The edited highlights of the 10th frame (With the score 5-3 to Karen) showed Karen jumping over the 3 ball to hit the 2, which banked around the table and into a corner pocket.

My question is (and it helped to have it on video so I have watched it a few times in slow motion) it looks like 3 ball rolled forward a few inches after the jump shot. From the overhead angle EPSN showed it looked like it was the cue ball that hit the 3 on the way down from the jump. If the tip of the cue stick had hit it however it may not have been called a foul as they were playing cue ball fouls only, but it did not look like that in the video.

Steve Tipton was standing right alongside Karen, but, as the 2 ball was a very close to another ball, (The 5 I think) I'm guessing as soon as he saw the cue ball was over the 3 he shifted his focus to the 2 ball to ensure it was hit first.

Did anyone else notice this or am I just going nuts?

 

[Blackjack]

It WAS a foul, but then again, technically it wasn't. It's only a foul if it is called, and in this case it wasn't. The 3 ball clearly moved, and I'm pretty sure Gerda saw it and waited for them to call it. It reminds me of a funny situation about 10 years back in Owensboro,Kentucky. It was during an exhibition between Team Texas & Team Kentucky (don't ask why anyone would have been interested) but, CJ Wiley clearly fouled a ball, everybody saw it except the guy that mattered. Buddy Hall was quite upset that Brienza didn't see it, and CJ even told Paul that he waited for him to call it. In that case the foul occurred when CJ was doing his practice strokes, he touched the cue ball. Nonetheless, remember, you can't call the foul on yourself when the ref is there. It might seem dishonest on the surface, but thems the rules, and Karen obviously knows that. Tough break for Gerda.

 

[AuntyDan]

Thanks Blackjack, good to see I am not losing it totally.

Nonetheless, remember, you can't call the foul on yourself when the ref is there.

Interesting comment. I've never played in a professional tournament with a referee, is this actually a formal rule or just an unspoken one?

I have seen Snooker pros in the UK call fouls on themselves in big tournaments with referees present, which is why I was suprised Karen didn't.

Then again it is possible she also shifted her eyes to the 2 ball so might not have seen it herself. (This is a little different from Earl Strickland's cue stick clearly hitting a ball whilst shooting in the recent Skins tournament, which would have been impossible to avoid feeling.) Speaking as someone British I personally would think it a shame if she has consciously chosen to forgoe this traditional aspect of sportsmanship in the UK, but then again I don't have to make my living from winning Pool tournaments.

As for Gerda getting bad rolls, it was amazing how much of a mirror her match with Karen was to her earlier match with Julie Fisher. In that Gerda got all the rolls and Julie could not get into the game at all, but in the finals it was the other way around.

 

[LastTwo]

In another thread a while back didn't everyone vote to burn Earl Strickland at the stake for not calling a foul on himself during a match? Yeesh talk about favoritism

 

[vagabond]

It reminds me of a funny situation about 10 years back in Owensboro,Kentucky.

Hi Blackjack,
Was it done along with the Pro tounament in Dec 1994 when Kim Davenport stood on the pool table and danced after winning the event ( Jeff carter was runner up)or it was at a different time?Cheers
Vagabond

 

[sjm]

Generally (can't say always, since there are so many versions of the rules), even when NOT playing all ball fouls, there are times when moving an object ball with your stick or hand constitutes a foul. The most obvious of these is when you move a ball with you hand or stick that you are either jumping over or masseing around. And so, whehter the three was moved by the cue ball, the stick or by Karen's hand, it's a foul.

 

[jazzn4444]

Generally (can't say always, since there are so many versions of the rules), even when NOT playing all ball fouls, there are times when moving an object ball with your stick or hand constitutes a foul. The most obvious of these is when you move a ball with you hand or stick that you are either jumping over or masseing around. And so, whehter the three was moved by the cue ball, the stick or by Karen's hand, it's a foul.

Some could argue that point. It's customarily up to your opponent to make that call, or to decide to put the ball back. I've always heard/played where if the moved ball(s) interrupt the original path of the cue/object ball(s) then it's a foul. But, it depends on the pool room, or the opponent, or anything else.

 

[Blackjack]

Hi Blackjack,
Was it done along with the Pro tounament in Dec 1994 when Kim Davenport stood on the pool table and danced after winning the event ( Jeff carter was runner up)or it was at a different time?Cheers
Vagabond

That's the tournament. It was a great week. Kim played great all week, so did Jeff Carter. I think Jeff came in third. I'm pretty sure Kim beat Jeff to get into the finals.

 

[sjm]

Some could argue that point. It's customarily up to your opponent to make that call, or to decide to put the ball back. I've always heard/played where if the moved ball(s) interrupt the original path of the cue/object ball(s) then it's a foul. But, it depends on the pool room, or the opponent, or anything else.

Agreed, Jazz, but I'm considering the matter of whether this is a foul, not whether it's a foul that will be called in a game situation. You are quite right in pointing out that this kind of foul will often end up under the radar in an unrefereed match, occasionally even in a refereed match. But it's still a foul.

 

[jazzn4444]

Agreed, Jazz, but I'm considering the matter of whether this is a foul, not whether it's a foul that will be called in a game situation. You are quite right in pointing out that this kind of foul will often end up under the radar in an unrefereed match, occasionally even in a refereed match. But it's still a foul.

I personally didn't see that match in question. However, as stated before, it's up to the ref to make that call. If someone has an opposing view, don't you think that they could do an "instant replay", or would the ref get in trouble like in MLB?

 

[sjm]

As for Gerda getting bad rolls, it was amazing how much of a mirror her match with Karen was to her earlier match with Julie Fisher. In that Gerda got all the rolls and Julie could not get into the game at all, but in the finals it was the other way around.

Gerda played Kelly Fisher and then Allison Fisher to earn her way into the final at the WPBA Nationals. To which match are you referring?

 

[AuntyDan]

Gerda played Kelly Fisher and then Allison Fisher to earn her way into the final at the WPBA Nationals. To which match are you referring?

D'oh! I mean KELLY Fisher, not JULIE Fisher. (There is no Julie Fisher right?)

 

[Tbeaux]

D'oh! I mean KELLY Fisher, not JULIE Fisher. (There is no Julie Fisher right?)

AuntyDan,

Think it goes....Julie Kelly(Ire), Kelly Fisher(Eng), Allison Fisher(Eng)!

Terry

 

[jjinfla]

As a baseball umpire once stated (I forget who) It is either fair; or it is foul; but it ain't nothing until I call it.

People will say it is poor sportsmanship on the offending player for not calling the foul on him/herself. But if the players do that then what is the need of a referee? And if the player calls a questionable foul on him/herself and the ref says it was not a foul where does that put the player? At the very least it is an affront to the ref. Which might be grounds for disqualification.

Just as the players live and die with the rolls, so too should they live and die with the calls of the ref. Right or wrong.

Jake

 

[sjm]

I really believe the gist of the original poster's question is the matter of how a referee that clearly saw what happened SHOULD have ruled, and the view in the thread seems to be that a foul SHOULD have been called.

In pool or in life, one committing an infraction has committed that infraction whether caught, penalized, both or neither. Evasion of penalty for any type of infraction in either life or pool is reason to feel lucky, not proud.

Count me among those who don't fault Karen Corr here, but the ref botched the call.

 

[turquoisecrazy]

If she fouled in snooker, she would have clled it...so why didn't she in 9-ball? What is right to do should be done regardless of the rules. So, if it is legal to rape a woman in a country, we can all do it? Where is her moral, integrity, honesty...She did not deserve to win if she wins by noi clling her foul. That is cheating