Did this guy ruin pool?

[Jimmy M.]

Everyone who was around back then knows it was because of Mackey. Some liked him, more hated him. A lot of players felt he was screwing the tour up. They took off and tried to do their own thing. Then again, at the ripe old age of 33, my memory could be failing here.

Isn't the UPA a "spin-off" tour?

 

[1pocket]

I think you need to get your facts a little straighter.

Many of the top players had major, major problems with what was being done within the PBT(A). When some of them couldn't take it any more, they formed their own tour, headed by CJ Wiley. I saw their first (or so) event which was held in Santa Rosa, CA, and included both a men's and women's division. There was a playoff at the end between the winners of each division. It was taped and shown on ESPN. It looked like an organization that could succeed.

Unfortunately for Wiley's group, it was at exactly that time that the PBT got the contract with Camel which came with a lot of money. If Camel had known then what they know now, I suspect they would have gone with Wiley or run as quickly as they could away from US men's pro pool.

Splinterhands also doesn't seem to be aware that the history of men's pool organizations since Brunswick released their iron grip in the 50's is cycle after cycle of failed, short-lived organizations, often with controversial directors, that all either eventually faltered on their own ineptitude or were challenged by an alternative group. The Jansco Brother's were involved in an early one (after the BCA withdrew from pro events) in the 60's, then there was the PPPA, which was a player group that rivaled the BCA?? (IIRC) maybe in the 70's, then the PBT -- PCA thing. Fast forward to now of course, and there are a lot of grumblings about Charlie Williams and the UPA, with players like Earl and Corey in some degree of dissention (that I don't profess to know much about).

I could be wrong about some of the dates and acronyms, etc, but I am certain there have been numerous splits and splintergroups over the last 50 years -- any one of which could be accused of ruining men's pool. Too bad they can't seem to work TOGETHER for once, instead of trying to take over by undermining each other.

Of course if the BCA could get the billiard industry itself to get together and really throw financial support to a solid men's tour, the men would probably follow the money and you might have something. Until that happens, the players themselves and independents will do their best to fill the void -- but it's patchwork and mostly disappointing (with the exception of the DCC )

 

[bgb]

I personally think that it has more to do with a lot of the players on the tour. They have dug themselves a hole that will be hard to overcome. I don't know all of them personally, but there are a great deal that have done some pretty bad things to make corporate sponsorship a very difficult thing to get.

So many players have had cues given to them by manufacturers to play with and the player turns around and just sells the cue and doesn't give them a nickel. I personally think the pro event that took place in Milwaukee, WI when Earl Strickland walked out of the finals against Corey Duel because the ref was racking well ahead of the spot had the biggest impact on losing Camel as a huge sponsor. I understand where Strickland was coming from because the ref was racking at least inch high giving a big advantage to Duel. However I think Strickland handled it very poorly, there were a lot of people there that paid money to see the finals, only to have Strickland quit and not have a final match, as he said to prove a point. My thoughts are was when that NFL ref screwed up the coin toss did the team that was shafted stomp off the field? No. Strickland should have noted the racking situation and have others note the problem and settle it behind closed doors where the fans don't know and then they see the finals that they paid to see.

I also think that all stems from that these guys are the best in the world at their sport and they can't even make a descent living. Sad but true.

Then again these are just my thoughts and opinions.

Camel was already going to leave before this event - this was common knowledge.

 

[cueball1950]

I'm just saying if he didn't take off and create another tour, pool would probably be a lot different today. The PBT was only 4 years old when he did this, so sure they're going to have issues. Now we have a gazillion tours and no money or popularity. I'm sure Grady would agree.

I asked Alan Hopkins in NYC 1 say while he was waiting for the U S Open 14.1 to start what had happened to the mens tour (PBT). his answer was very simple. it self imploded. mackey had taken over for Joe Kerr when he got sick and then had every player under contract with the PBT and had about 90% of them signed to use Meucci cues during that time. then for some reason the players started geting stiffed. anyway, RJR (Camel) withdrew their sponsorship and mackey sued them and settled for a reportdly close to a million dollars and the last rumor i heard was that only Jim Rempe got paid what was owed. and mackey is living where no one can find him.
It has been specualted that RJR, Camel only got involved in the mens tour so that they could get the foor in the door of the APA organization. which apparently they did for awhile. may the PBT rest in peace with all the other dead tours.....................................mike

 

[Jersey]

Pool Ruined???

It's pretty simple...until all the Priciples involved with Tours and Promotions etc., get together and come up with 'Standard' rules for play, and some sort of 'Conduct' guidelines Pool will stay the same. We need a Coalition, 'ONE' Governing Body, a meeting of the minds and powers that be, including players to create what it seems The Women have been some what successful at. The Gals have effective Marketing and Productions, they have Personalities that other Women want to emulate, (in a good way), their always on ESPN, and most importantly, they don't have anywhere near the splintering that the Mens Tour seems to have. If the Women have an event coming up, there isn't two other events that pull the Top Players away, any Top Womens Event is going to have 'ALL' the Top Women in attendance.

Is there something to be learned here?...or are Women organizationally that Superior to Men???

 

[Jerry Forsyth]

I asked Alan Hopkins in NYC 1 say while he was waiting for the U S Open 14.1 to start what had happened to the mens tour (PBT). his answer was very simple. it self imploded. mackey had taken over for Joe Kerr when he got sick and then had every player under contract with the PBT and had about 90% of them signed to use Meucci cues during that time. then for some reason the players started geting stiffed. anyway, RJR (Camel) withdrew their sponsorship and mackey sued them and settled for a reportdly close to a million dollars and the last rumor i heard was that only Jim Rempe got paid what was owed. and mackey is living where no one can find him.
It has been specualted that RJR, Camel only got involved in the mens tour so that they could get the foor in the door of the APA organization. which apparently they did for awhile. may the PBT rest in peace with all the other dead tours.....................................mike

I went to every Camel event ever held as a reporter. Camel had many problems with pool. For one, the events never drew any crowds. They were sponsoring pool to get publicity and wern't getting any. We played the finals in Columbus, Ohio, in a huge arena that would hold thousands of people. Other than player relatives and wives there were only 42 people there when Francisco Bustamante beat Nick Varner with a three-rail combination on the nine ball that is still the best shot I have ever seen. Fans stayed away from every event in droves. The PBT management ran into severe (for many rumoured reasons) cash flow problems and began failing to pay purses at the 1996 New Orleans event, a situation which grew worse as time wore on. Plus, the feds were putting heat on tobacco sponsorship of sport. Camel could not associate with the non-payment of funds, needed to avoid the fed heat, was getting nothing for their money, and pulled out citing that the PBT had violated the contract. The PBT sued and won (if I remember correctly) 1.2 million dollars.

The lawyers got whatever obscene percentage of that that lawyers get. The rest went to Don Mackey. No player has ever told me that they got a single penney of that money, not even Jim. Don Mackey lives on a golf course in Spring Hill, Fl, and can be found by anyone who wishes to find him.

-Jerry Forsyth

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin, you've long been one of my favorites on AZB, but I don't think this comparison is fair. Yours is an argument of pure economic theory, and seems air-tight on the surface.

Still, I think you'd agree that opening a dry cleaner next door to one that already exists and intentionally operating at a loss in the short-term may not advance the interests of anybody. The result is that the established dry cleaner goes out of business and the new one must then greatly increase its prices to avoid extinction. Once it does, it, too, goes out of business. Nobody wins, and the more cost-efficient provider of service has been eliminated. This story isn't one of good clean pure competition, but one of destructive business practice. Throat cutting just for the sake of it, with the result being an unnecessary and undesirable reduction in supply of something desired in the economy.

Pool has a few too many stories in its history that make me think of the dry cleaner story rather than the Burger King story.

PS Dry cleaning as a business was chosen at random, and the hypothetical story says nothing about my feelings on a sector of the economy which I know nothing about.

Hi sjm,
Yes, my analogy is not perfect, but I wanted to show another significant side to the story of organizational development. Rarely are the first to embark upon a venture the best at doing it. Others come along, they give each other some grievance and the fittest, more able group survives.

Competition, as you pointed out, puts a strain on businesses, but despite this unwelcomed resistance to early growth, the mechanism of open competition tends toward better businesses and organizations. That's what made America great.

For that reason, I am often supportive of entrepreneureal attempts to set up rival organizations. One of these may manage to make a major breakthrough.

From what I have seen in pool organizations they are mostly extremely bureaucratic and incapable of making the steps necessary for development of the sport. They also seem to do whatever they can to prevent those who can develop the sport from doing so.

Maybe that makes my point more thoroughly.

Always appreciate a thought provoking debate

Cheers,
Colin

 

[cuesmith]

You are correct, I feel the tour would be in great shape right now if Joe Kerr never got sick. When Don Mackey took it over he ruined it. amc4

Joe was certainly a great tournament director and organizer. He understood pool and pool players much better than most of the "powers that be".

IMHO the biggest problem we have in the sport is the people who insist on trying to "Clean up the image of pool"! When are these people going to wake up and look around! Every time we have had the slightest boom in the billiards industry, it has come on the heels of movies like "The Hustler" or "The Color of Money"! People are much more interested in the "gambling" and so called seedier aspect of the game, when it comes to entertainment. Poker is another prime example that supports my position! The public has no interest in watching sterile pool! Me neither for that matter! I think the ring game format and the "skins game" format both have a lot of potential! These formats seem to bring out a little more personality from the players.

I'd also have to agree with the 8-ball proponents. It feel there should be more televised 8-ball tournaments. 8-ball has become the most recognised game among the public. I think more people understand the concept, if not the real stragedy, of 8-ball and it would help popularize pool if the game televised was better understood by the viewers.

We also need more players like Earl, Corey, Keith, Efren, Rodney, and Alex, who make the games and matches exciting to watch! And less players like Danny Bassovitch, Archer, Varner, Carter, and Souquet. No disrespect meant to these great players, but they are like watching paint dry!


Off the soap box!!!


just more hot air!

Sherm