Different Taper
- Thread starter vincett
- Start date
You mean “taper”. “Tapper” is a tip tool.
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Also, Tapper is a tool.
DeeDeeCues
Well-known member
A hybrid taper does not exist. All tapers are either true conical or some form of a 'pro taper' Your question is impossible to answer because there are too many variables and many of those lie within you.
People hang pretty much any name they want on a taper.
Conical: Constant taper from end to end.
Straight: Same as conical.
Modified Conical: A slower taper in the shaft section going to a true conical.
Pro taper: Having a straight section at the tip that isn't really zero taper or straight. Pro taper is usually not less than twelve inches or more than sixteen inches long.
The contour of a shaft and butt are whatever the maker desires and they name it whatever they please! My cue starts with a modified pro taper at the tip, goes into a polyconic arc which is another misnomer, a dropped constant taper from the butt, then something from a slight taper the rest of the way to the buttcap to a straight cylinder to the buttcap depending on materials, weight, and balance desired.
Oddly enough, the way a cue plays is highly sensitive to shaft profile. Alter your cue builder's design at your peril. Or you will end up with the dreaded POS cue.
Hu
Conical: Constant taper from end to end.
Straight: Same as conical.
Modified Conical: A slower taper in the shaft section going to a true conical.
Pro taper: Having a straight section at the tip that isn't really zero taper or straight. Pro taper is usually not less than twelve inches or more than sixteen inches long.
The contour of a shaft and butt are whatever the maker desires and they name it whatever they please! My cue starts with a modified pro taper at the tip, goes into a polyconic arc which is another misnomer, a dropped constant taper from the butt, then something from a slight taper the rest of the way to the buttcap to a straight cylinder to the buttcap depending on materials, weight, and balance desired.
Oddly enough, the way a cue plays is highly sensitive to shaft profile. Alter your cue builder's design at your peril. Or you will end up with the dreaded POS cue.
Hu
I personally like a longer taper where the portion in the bridge hand is roughly the same.
The opposite extreme is a 3 cushion carom shaft. I played with them a few hours and couldn't understand how anyone like them. They got super fat in the bridge hand.
At the end of the day, its personal preference.
The opposite extreme is a 3 cushion carom shaft. I played with them a few hours and couldn't understand how anyone like them. They got super fat in the bridge hand.
At the end of the day, its personal preference.
DeeDeeCues
Well-known member
Marketing bullshit.
it doesn't matter, whatever feels good in you hand.
My guess is that early pool cues with 14mm tip were too thick for comfort in the hand, especially with a closed bridge compared to a snooker cue that is about 10mm or less so cue makers started doing pro taper.
Conical taper started to pop up on pool shafts when smaller diameter tips were popping up like the Predator Z
My guess is that early pool cues with 14mm tip were too thick for comfort in the hand, especially with a closed bridge compared to a snooker cue that is about 10mm or less so cue makers started doing pro taper.
Conical taper started to pop up on pool shafts when smaller diameter tips were popping up like the Predator Z
There's much more than 3 tapers out there, measure 10 different cue makers tapers and they will all be slightly different. The material (Maple, quality of maple, kielwood, carbon fibre etc.) taper, tennon/ferrule construction and tip does matter a lot, but they all will be variations on the same theme. We are all bound to the reality that over a 29" span the shaft has to go from 13mm to .840" or (whatever your joint collar prefrence is) in a meaningfull way.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I'm gonna keep this brief. Look at a conical taper... it's a cone basically. As you move it forward in your bridge hand (open bridge, the V) the tip will rise up, even if it's still on your bridge, because it gets fatter. With a pro taper the shaft tapers gradually so the tip rises less.
Either can be played with and if you look at snooker they often use more points of contact with their body (like the chin) to kind of lock the shaft in more.
Most 1 piece house cues in the US have conical taper, this is the reason they feel different if you're used to a 2 piece cue or something.
I can play with conical but I do not prefer it because it feels weird with a loop bridge (I use open or loop depending on the situation). When it gets fatter it gets tighter in a loop.
Either can be played with and if you look at snooker they often use more points of contact with their body (like the chin) to kind of lock the shaft in more.
Most 1 piece house cues in the US have conical taper, this is the reason they feel different if you're used to a 2 piece cue or something.
I can play with conical but I do not prefer it because it feels weird with a loop bridge (I use open or loop depending on the situation). When it gets fatter it gets tighter in a loop.
Thank you much! It just came to my attentions that Conical vs Pro do make my strokes delivery differently. I also play with both open and closed bridge, depends on the stroke. But I feel that I deliver a straighter and more consistent stroke with Pro taper or hybrid from cynergy by Cuetec rather than Conical by Predator.
At first I thought it was my imaginations and an offday. But a few buddies brought taper into my attentions and I think it has a lot to do with bridge type, bridge length and the stroke mechanism as well. Just wish I could have a more detailed scientific systems to further enhance my own stroke and find a good shaft rather than jumping the hoops and buying different one lol
This is why you address the cue ball with the tip as close to the cue ball as you can put it without touching on your final forward warm up stroke. No matter what shaft taper you use there is very little difference in shaft diameter between when you address the cue ball and when you hit it. This is also why the address distance should be consistent especially with a conical taper and open bridge.
Hu
There are many ways to approach this, as you have seen with good comments already.
An example would be that Ray Schuler offered at least 8 tapers as I recall, and probably more if you worked with him on it. The man was a genius and had at least 8 tapers available? Those were primarily carom billiard cues, but also pool. If you include all cue sports and styles of play it's a huge topic. And good cue makers tend to be pretty smart dudes. You can't always break down what they have done by the numbers like "measured deflection". It's downright black magic sometimes. Please let me keep believing that, don't burst my bubble.
Suffice it to say that most people that play pool prefer a "pro" taper, a shaft that remains the same diameter for a great length before tapering up larger, like 12 to 14 inches.
The most extreme type would be some attempts that are interesting but unsuccessful. Examples would be the old Flex-Craft cues with a straight non-tapered shaft into a handle, I have a couple versions in my collection. Over the years people often frowned on things like carbon fiber, fiberglass, and essentially anything other than wood, and especially anything without some kind of taper, but look at what is happening now with CF. It will not surprise me if at some point we see another serious attempt at something like what Flex-Craft did but with CF.
At the other end of extreme, the pure conical shaft, you will find a pool player that will stay with his pool cue while transitioning to billiards, but after a certain point they are likely to move to a billiards or carom conical taper.
In between those two extremes the possibilities of the variations of sigmoid and parabolic curves and the relative dimensions are endless.
Most of my cues are pool cues, only one snooker, and a few carom/billiard, and then several jump and masse cues. Most have some version of a pro taper. Even the billiard cues are not all fully conical. I have a billiard cue made by USBA National Champion Harry Simms, and it is not fully conical, nor is it a real pro taper. It's what he preferred I guess. Legend has it Harry ran 11 racks of 9 ball before he became a serious 3 cushion player, so I suspect he knew a thing or two about cues. I am fortunate to have had some exchange with someone who was close to him.
The lesson from that little story about Harry Simms makes think the discussion about tapers will be eternal, and there isn't a single correct answer to most questions on the matter.
I love to get four or five cues out and compare how they play. Just taking my Joss and all the shafts I have for it to compare is fun. I have two original Joss that play the same. Two Stroud that play the same, and one Scruggs that plays like neither of the other makers.
I think truly excellent players can often adapt to a wider variety of shaft types, so a banger like me might be more sensitive to it. Maybe a better player could describe the difference more intelligently though? Or maybe they just naturally adapt by their aptitude? Probably depends on the player.
Then add diameter, tip choice, balance, etc. and we realize why this sport is so obsessed with that piece of equipment. It never ends and there is no answer...until the next great fad and the religion that follows it, LOL!
An example would be that Ray Schuler offered at least 8 tapers as I recall, and probably more if you worked with him on it. The man was a genius and had at least 8 tapers available? Those were primarily carom billiard cues, but also pool. If you include all cue sports and styles of play it's a huge topic. And good cue makers tend to be pretty smart dudes. You can't always break down what they have done by the numbers like "measured deflection". It's downright black magic sometimes. Please let me keep believing that, don't burst my bubble.
Suffice it to say that most people that play pool prefer a "pro" taper, a shaft that remains the same diameter for a great length before tapering up larger, like 12 to 14 inches.
The most extreme type would be some attempts that are interesting but unsuccessful. Examples would be the old Flex-Craft cues with a straight non-tapered shaft into a handle, I have a couple versions in my collection. Over the years people often frowned on things like carbon fiber, fiberglass, and essentially anything other than wood, and especially anything without some kind of taper, but look at what is happening now with CF. It will not surprise me if at some point we see another serious attempt at something like what Flex-Craft did but with CF.
At the other end of extreme, the pure conical shaft, you will find a pool player that will stay with his pool cue while transitioning to billiards, but after a certain point they are likely to move to a billiards or carom conical taper.
In between those two extremes the possibilities of the variations of sigmoid and parabolic curves and the relative dimensions are endless.
Most of my cues are pool cues, only one snooker, and a few carom/billiard, and then several jump and masse cues. Most have some version of a pro taper. Even the billiard cues are not all fully conical. I have a billiard cue made by USBA National Champion Harry Simms, and it is not fully conical, nor is it a real pro taper. It's what he preferred I guess. Legend has it Harry ran 11 racks of 9 ball before he became a serious 3 cushion player, so I suspect he knew a thing or two about cues. I am fortunate to have had some exchange with someone who was close to him.
The lesson from that little story about Harry Simms makes think the discussion about tapers will be eternal, and there isn't a single correct answer to most questions on the matter.
I love to get four or five cues out and compare how they play. Just taking my Joss and all the shafts I have for it to compare is fun. I have two original Joss that play the same. Two Stroud that play the same, and one Scruggs that plays like neither of the other makers.
I think truly excellent players can often adapt to a wider variety of shaft types, so a banger like me might be more sensitive to it. Maybe a better player could describe the difference more intelligently though? Or maybe they just naturally adapt by their aptitude? Probably depends on the player.
I would say ask the individual player. Most will likely say it is very important, but after that any further discussion could vary wildly.
Then add diameter, tip choice, balance, etc. and we realize why this sport is so obsessed with that piece of equipment. It never ends and there is no answer...until the next great fad and the religion that follows it, LOL!
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I'll be brutally honest with you. You're chasing your tail. Stuff like that matters, but it's into the SUPER diminishing returns territory. It might effect 0.25% of everything. Your time would be much better spent working on other things. Unless you're >700 fargo you don't have the skills/stroke to waste even 5 minutes chasing a 0.25% gain. You're not at the point to where it makes any difference. If it bothers you it's time to strengthen your mental game.
Believe me, I've been down similar rabbit holes before and I wish I had spent my time working on other things. Find an instructor (or training system) and spend the time you would spend pondering these type of issues at the practice table doing the homework they give you. As someone who gets too anal on this type of stuff, it's an absolute waste of time worrying and will actively hurt your progress. Focus on the stuff that matters, and equipment isn't it. Good luck in your endeavors!
I know there are many camps of people into this sports. I am one of those that like this game for it physics, engineerings, and maths behind every moves. Then on top of that, strategies, mental games.I'll be brutally honest with you. You're chasing your tail. Stuff like that matters, but it's into the SUPER diminishing returns territory. It might effect 0.25% of everything. Your time would be much better spent working on other things. Unless you're >700 fargo you don't have the skills/stroke to waste even 5 minutes chasing a 0.25% gain. You're not at the point to where it makes any difference. If it bothers you it's time to strengthen your mental game.
Believe me, I've been down similar rabbit holes before and I wish I had spent my time working on other things. Find an instructor (or training system) and spend the time you would spend pondering these type of issues at the practice table doing the homework they give you. As someone who gets too anal on this type of stuff, it's an absolute waste of time worrying and will actively hurt your progress. Focus on the stuff that matters, and equipment isn't it. Good luck in your endeavors!
In those topics if physics and engineerings, equipments matters. Yes, I may be chasing my tail, but I have a clear path into it, aka chasing with sciences and physics, not just chasing for fun. Therefore, if good tools will train a technician to be more efficient at his job, then good equipments will also make me be more efficient at learning and progressing, especially with sciences and physics behind it.
Just FYI, I am not into the camp of those who says HAM = better you. If there are sciences and physics and tools to help me hitting 500k balls instead of a HAM ball, or cutting the time down to 50% ...or being Twice as much efficient, then I will take it. That is me
A clear example for you is that you can DIY changing a cue tip with utility knife, sand paper, tapes and glues....or you can do it with a lathe. I am the kind that rather be using the Lathe instead of house tools stuff.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I want to preface that I'm not meaning this disparagingly or anything, just mainly discussing my opinion on it.
I get it but with an engineering mindset think of it this way. Your project has a budget and a timeline. Is it worth focusing X amount of man hours and budget on a problem that will only improve your final product by 2% or is it better to use the same man hours and budget to fix something that will improve the final product by 20%?
Please note, I am not saying this stuff doesn't matter at all, and it is fun to discuss. I'm saying it's so minute that unless you build a robot to stroke the cue for you it's beyond the point of diminishing returns. Plug the hole in the bucket first and then you can worry about making the outside look shiny.
No matter how scientific, engineering minded, good at physics, etc you are... we are still only human. Stroke errors will contribute to a much higher percentage of error than taper. So will fundamentals, mental errors, strategic errors, etc. Focusing on something with such a tiny percentage of improvement isn't being efficient with your resources and time. You would probably find more improvement in your pool game by taking a daily vitamin. No joke. If you don't like conical taper then use some form of pro taper. If you bridge 8" away consistently, get a 12" pro taper, if you bridge 12" away, get a 20" pro taper. It's not an exact science, the point is you don't want the taper to change as it goes through your bridge... a conical does this. Some people like them and can play perfection pool with them. I don't. It's personal preference and what you like. A preference, and just like arguing if catsup or mustard is better, there is no hard truth to it. Try your friend's cues or see if you can try some belonging to the regulars at your pool hall. Try the ones they have for sale at tournaments, etc.
Sure, it's fun to nerd out on the minute details but it isn't an efficient use of your time and resources until you are so good that you MUST chase the small diminishing returns. Plug the hole in the bucket to begin with, then at some point worry about how shiny it is.
I'm not saying to use a house cue or a broomstick. Obviously playing with better equipment can help. I'm saying that unless you are world class at pool your resources would be better focused elsewhere. Any cue in a normal range will serve you well. Once proficient at it you will be able to form opinions such as taper, weight, balance point, tip curvature, etc. Anyway, sorry for the wordy reply, hope everything works well for you.
I don't know just how in depth of an answer you are looking for but there has been a lot of things discussed amongst cuemakers, and some things that they keep as secret. You can get into the speed of sound in different woods, wave propagation and all sorts of things. You might even google some of the stuff in the cuemaker's forum. You might find some interesting stuff in the archives. I vaguely recall Meucci doing extensive deflection testing that was posted in older pool magazines. There's a plethora of variables. Probably enough you could spend an entire lifetime studying them and never figure it all out.