Different Types of Cue Construction explained. What's Best?

T

tcampanis

New member
I currently play with a Meucci Curly maple cue and the Meucci Carbon Pro shaft. It appears to be on piece construction with multiple diamond inlays. I've been interested in trying other cues. So, what advantages do Full Splice cues have in terms of performance and feel over other cue designs? Is this the best cue design for optimal feel and performance? Let's couch shaft performance for now. I know feel and performance is subjective to a degree but bear with me; there is a difference between Toyota and Ferrari so is you like your Camry this post is not for you.

I see companies like Predator who advertise the consistency and feel of their P3 30 piece design, as well as Exceed Cues who use and advertise a Dual Core Power design, none of which are full spliced if I'm not mistaken, and I can't help but wonder what the differences are and how each performs and feels. Predator says, "Spliced points are structurally build into the cue itself making it stronger and more stable." Exceed says, "A power core specifically designed for wood grips that was developed to take advantage of the unique wood grain and beauty of the colors of precious woods for use as external materials. A double-layered core material is used to create the optimal weight and balance even when using heavy precious wood as the outer material.
By processing the outer material and intermediate material to match the taper, the overall balance of the bat is optimized and the feel of the ball in the hand is improved. Furthermore, the bat's durability and stability have also been improved." I've found it's hard to distinguish between marketing and facts.

What are cue makers thoughts on this? Is True Splice construction the end all be all of top tier performance or are there multiple methods that perform equally as well? I also, understand that high quality wood and other factors come into play as well.

I have been looking at Exceed, Zen Custom Cues, and Ariel Carmeli. I'm not concerned with aesthetics primarily. I'm mostly concerned with feel and performance of the cue. So, if someone said a Full Splice cue with ebony and Birdseye maple would feel like heaven and perform well I'd consider that. I just don't know and don't have resources for inquiry.

I'm a very tactile person. I can distinguish quite easily the difference in hit and feels of a high end cue or a cue that's been taken care of etc. I've hit with my friends P3 with the Z shaft but it felt awful. I'm not sure if it was the cue construction or the fact that I think he keeps his cue in his truck. But that's what I mean when I can feel the difference.

All this said, I have mainly been looking into Exceeds wooden grip Dual Core Power design with there ex pro wooden shaft as well as the Ignite Carbon shaft. I like that they use high quality wood, have a top of the line carbon shaft option, are a part of Mezz cues who are well respected, and have made efforts to design optimal joints with the Wavy 2 joint.

Thoughts and Opinions are welcomed however those with knowledge of Cue Construction or experience in building cues is what I'm seeking most.
 

Full Splice vs. Regular Cues

I have never known what the deal is on the full splice cues. Never owned one. Naturally we've all played with house cues. But I wanted to ask what some of the the differences are between full splice and a regular cue? I've been talking to a cue maker and this came up as an option and I'm...
forums.azbilliards.com

I had a Hercek that I traded for a Gina. Very different cue making philosophies behind those two cues. Both cuemaking legends.

Both played awesome, well constructed, fanatical attention to detail, etc.

One guy used CNC for the "points" and inlays, and, to my knowledge, rarely, if ever, spliced a cue up (someone else's blanks don't count). The other guy I think at one point made full splice cues only (but I don't think that's true anymore).

They were just different kinds of good.

To be honest, most cues made by guys who care about what they make play pretty good to me, regardless of how they are made.

I'm no cuemaker, I just enjoy playing with them, take the above with a grain of salt.
 
The same cue can feel completely different in the hands of three different players. Being tactile person you're not going to be able to buy a cue off reputation or construction type alone.

I'm pretty sure the consensus here is going to be to play and feel the different construction types along with specific examples from targeted builders you're considering to get a feel for want in a cue before you buy.

Have you watched the StudioTronic videos on YouTube yet? Eddie is a new builder but in his videos, he covers just about all the different ways you construct and decorate a cue so watching them would be a great place to start.

You can see them here!
 
Each and every cue ever made may possibly feel different in the hands of any given player - that is a fact. You are looking for generalities and objectivities in a world of specifics and subjectivities!

All that being said - I ‘ll give you a generality on cues based on my own subjective many years of experience - true full splice cues will provide more cue hit “feel” through the handle area of the cue whereas short splice and CNC point constructed cues tend to generate more cue hit feeling and feedback starting more towards the cue / shaft joint area . This is a vast generalization on cue construction affect on cue hit feel.

The marketing hype on more modern production cues like Predator, Mezz, etc just has to be evaluated individually by the player actually hitting with these cues and forming their own opinions - subjectivity again!

Hope this helps you decide👍
 
Benelli said:
The same cue can feel completely different in the hands of three different players. Being tactile person you're not going to be able to buy a cue off reputation or construction type alone.

I'm pretty sure the consensus here is going to be to play and feel the different construction types along with specific examples from targeted builders you're considering to get a feel for want in a cue before you buy.

Have you watched the StudioTronic videos on YouTube yet? Eddie is a new builder but in his videos, he covers just about all the different ways you construct and decorate a cue so watching them would be a great place to start.

You can see them here!
Click to expand...
Yes, I've consulted his videos a lot. They're very enjoyable to watch.
 
I'm sharing Bob Dzuricky, a long time cue maker's, response here:

"Thomas,



Of course, every cuemaker who responds will have his own agenda, so keep that in mind as you weigh our answers. That said, I’m winding down my business so I don’t need to impress anyone at this point.



Duplicating the hit of a full spliced (FS) cue has long been the Holy Grail of cuemakers. Or so they think. The argument goes: there is so much glue surface, the two woods are joined as perfectly as possible, transmitting ALL vibrations to your hand. However, the flip side of that is this: with so much glue surface, it’s more likely that some areas will be glue starved, leaving opportunities for buzzing or vibrations between the woods. Done well, FS cues hit very nicely. Done poorly, FS cues will still play well but the hit will leave something to be desired.



Half spliced cues are often criticized for not feeling like a FS cue. Usually, it’s in the shooter’s head and is due to his preconceptions. If done well, the hit is indistinguishable from a FS hit. It brings to mind the McChesney experiment* about joint differences in which he showed how wrong player’s perceptions can be. The fact that 2 FS cues were the most liked could be another notable takeaway from this experiment.



I don’t like the way most LD shafts or cues hit. I don’t know if it’s due to the spliced wood shaft construction or their dual core, razzmatazz, super secret butt construction. And my comments about the differences in hit between the two construction techniques assumes that the shaft, ferrule, tip, joint collar, trim rings, buttsleeve, buttcap, inlays, points, veneers, etc are all installed accurately and correctly. Any discrepancies in any of these areas can affect the “hit”.



So. Knowing now that I prefer wooden shafts without full length cores and butts that have well executed, traditional construction, my recommendation is to find a cuemaker who has a reasonable reputation for building a quality cue, whose style you like, and go with him. Or…if you’ve decided you want to go the LD route, then buy whichever cue pleases your eye and learn to love the hit you’re given. It may feel odd for a week or so but humans can adapt to anything quite quickly. If it gives you the results you’re seeking, deal with it."

And

"* Here's something interesting we tried in 1991: At an event we had 16 cues with the butt, joint and the ferrules covered with masking tape...then numbered. No one could "see" if the cue was a steel, plastic or wood joint (as in a Pete), nor detect by the style of ferrule.


We had 70 players...each hit balls with the cues throughout the weekend.



The results:


Of nearly 800 attempts over the time period, the players guessed wrong about what type joint was in the cue more than 7 out of 10 times. A top pro (Meucci staffer) happened to be there, having done an exhibition and the cue he liked the most during the attempts: He thought was surely a Meucci, plastic joint when in reality it was an older Adams with a piloted steel joint; and additionally guessed the Meucci he shot with as a cue with a steel joint.


Again, I maintain that cues with different joint materials may sound differently; may be balanced differently, but what is "hit" ? Doesn't "hit" have to do with all the senses: Vibration (feel), sound, balance, etc. What is a "soft" hit? What is a "hard" hit? (what does this mean, if not the sound the cue makes upon impact, or are people refer to the vibration in the butt?) Does a hard hit vibrate more and make a different sound? A soft hit vibrate less with a different sound? I maintain that the primary criteria that differentiates one cue from another begins with:


>The tip (soft, med or hard)
>The shaft diameter and density of the wood
>The taper (or stiffness of the shaft)


To this day, I still don't believe the joint has much to do with the reaction of the cueball off the shaft, rather it is the 3 aforementioned that have far more bearing on how a cue
plays than anything else. Remember, what makes the predator shaft play differently is what is located at the tip,
inside the shaft, the ferrule and the laminations....not the joint or butt.


In closing, our experiment asked which cue the players liked best: Of the 70 players, nearly 55 liked the hit of two cues with different numbers: When the two were exposed, they both were sneaky petes, wood to wood joints, (one a Scruggs and the other a Huebler); both about 19 oz., both about 13 1/4mm and tended to be on the stiff side of "hit". By the way, the 55 who liked the hit of these two cues: more than half thought they would be steel jointed."


John McChesney
 
tcampanis said:
Is True Splice construction the end all be all of top tier performance or are there multiple methods that perform equally as well?
Click to expand...
A long time ago, when glues were not as good as today, a full splice cue was structurally stronger.
Now, glues are better.....
 
While that joint experiment does show that people can have a hard time telling the joints apart, I have played with the same brand of cue and model of shafts with different joints, and there was a clear difference to one type vs another on basically the same cue and the same model shaft. The longest trial was with some Predator cues and shafts at SBE. My son and I tried out several combinations of cues with the same shafts and in every case, we liked the Radial pin better than the quick release. Now if we were asked blindfolded what joint is what, we may not be able to identify which was radial and which was the quick release, but we could identify what we liked better at the first hit or two, and that was all Radial pins. All of my favorite cues to play with very few exceptions have been the large pin cues, 3/8x10 or Radial.
 
jasonlaus said:
Searing and Mobley, arguably the best 2 in the business have 180 degree different thoughts on cue construction - they couldn't be further apart and yet they both play great.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I have a searing shaft that i use, and someone let me hit a mobley. I want a mobley ever since. There was so much life to the mobley hit. I was dumb founded. Love the searing, but the mobely really fit my game. Now i just need to find one.
 
I heard in person Gus Szamboti say that the more he had to put into a cue the harder it was to make it play good.
That's all he said with no further explanation,Gus was very close mouthed about how he built cues.

I took it to mean that a true sneaky pete would play better then a cue with a traditional joint and a bunch of rings that would deaden the hit.
?????????????????
 
MitchAlsup said:
A long time ago, when glues were not as good as today, a full splice cue was structurally stronger.
Now, glues are better.....
Click to expand...
Full splice cues were always glued together from day one, so if the glues were not as good years ago - why was a full splice cue "stronger" than a short splice cue where the handle was attached internally via metal connections? Today they may not use metal connections inside the short splice cue bc they may be using superior glues with wood to wood connections internally- I get that part.

However, many, many years ago, a metal connection done correctly internally on a short splice would be equally if not stronger than full spliced cues connected together with " weaker" glues from years past- as you stated?
 
measureman said:
I heard in person Gus Szamboti say that the more he had to put into a cue the harder it was to make it play good.
That's all he said with no further explanation,Gus was very close mouthed about how he built cues.

I took it to mean that a true sneaky pete would play better then a cue with a traditional joint and a bunch of rings that would deaden the hit.
?????????????????
Click to expand...
Yes, I agree, when you look at Gus putting together a short splice forearm with glued veneers, then having to connect that internally to the cue handle, then having to connect the cue handle to the cue butt sleeve - a lot more can go wrong than just splicing two pieces of wood together.
 
tcampanis said:
I'm sharing Bob Dzuricky, a long time cue maker's, response here:

"Thomas,



Of course, every cuemaker who responds will have his own agenda, so keep that in mind as you weigh our answers. That said, I’m winding down my business so I don’t need to impress anyone at this point.



Duplicating the hit of a full spliced (FS) cue has long been the Holy Grail of cuemakers. Or so they think. The argument goes: there is so much glue surface, the two woods are joined as perfectly as possible, transmitting ALL vibrations to your hand. However, the flip side of that is this: with so much glue surface, it’s more likely that some areas will be glue starved, leaving opportunities for buzzing or vibrations between the woods. Done well, FS cues hit very nicely. Done poorly, FS cues will still play well but the hit will leave something to be desired.



Half spliced cues are often criticized for not feeling like a FS cue. Usually, it’s in the shooter’s head and is due to his preconceptions. If done well, the hit is indistinguishable from a FS hit. It brings to mind the McChesney experiment* about joint differences in which he showed how wrong player’s perceptions can be. The fact that 2 FS cues were the most liked could be another notable takeaway from this experiment.



I don’t like the way most LD shafts or cues hit. I don’t know if it’s due to the spliced wood shaft construction or their dual core, razzmatazz, super secret butt construction. And my comments about the differences in hit between the two construction techniques assumes that the shaft, ferrule, tip, joint collar, trim rings, buttsleeve, buttcap, inlays, points, veneers, etc are all installed accurately and correctly. Any discrepancies in any of these areas can affect the “hit”.



So. Knowing now that I prefer wooden shafts without full length cores and butts that have well executed, traditional construction, my recommendation is to find a cuemaker who has a reasonable reputation for building a quality cue, whose style you like, and go with him. Or…if you’ve decided you want to go the LD route, then buy whichever cue pleases your eye and learn to love the hit you’re given. It may feel odd for a week or so but humans can adapt to anything quite quickly. If it gives you the results you’re seeking, deal with it."

And

"* Here's something interesting we tried in 1991: At an event we had 16 cues with the butt, joint and the ferrules covered with masking tape...then numbered. No one could "see" if the cue was a steel, plastic or wood joint (as in a Pete), nor detect by the style of ferrule.


We had 70 players...each hit balls with the cues throughout the weekend.



The results:


Of nearly 800 attempts over the time period, the players guessed wrong about what type joint was in the cue more than 7 out of 10 times. A top pro (Meucci staffer) happened to be there, having done an exhibition and the cue he liked the most during the attempts: He thought was surely a Meucci, plastic joint when in reality it was an older Adams with a piloted steel joint; and additionally guessed the Meucci he shot with as a cue with a steel joint.


Again, I maintain that cues with different joint materials may sound differently; may be balanced differently, but what is "hit" ? Doesn't "hit" have to do with all the senses: Vibration (feel), sound, balance, etc. What is a "soft" hit? What is a "hard" hit? (what does this mean, if not the sound the cue makes upon impact, or are people refer to the vibration in the butt?) Does a hard hit vibrate more and make a different sound? A soft hit vibrate less with a different sound? I maintain that the primary criteria that differentiates one cue from another begins with:


>The tip (soft, med or hard)
>The shaft diameter and density of the wood
>The taper (or stiffness of the shaft)


To this day, I still don't believe the joint has much to do with the reaction of the cueball off the shaft, rather it is the 3 aforementioned that have far more bearing on how a cue
plays than anything else. Remember, what makes the predator shaft play differently is what is located at the tip,
inside the shaft, the ferrule and the laminations....not the joint or butt.


In closing, our experiment asked which cue the players liked best: Of the 70 players, nearly 55 liked the hit of two cues with different numbers: When the two were exposed, they both were sneaky petes, wood to wood joints, (one a Scruggs and the other a Huebler); both about 19 oz., both about 13 1/4mm and tended to be on the stiff side of "hit". By the way, the 55 who liked the hit of these two cues: more than half thought they would be steel jointed."


John McChesney
Click to expand...
The poster asked that we "couch " shaft performance in our replies. I know that is hard to do when discussing cue "hit' "performance" "feedback" etc. No doubt the multiple variations available in shaft decisions will affect cue "feel" for sure- hard vs. soft tip -- whippy vs. stiff taper --- etc. etc. on shafts.
You mention wood density and to me, that is an overlooked factor in overall cue evaluations- Gus and George were always looking for very dense maple for their forearms. They were fortunate in that in the 60s and into the 70s there was still enough true old growth wood supply fairly available that would be considered "dense" by any standards. There are stories of both cue makers painstakingly picking through woods to find the best available at that time.

I am not so certain that there is very much true "old growth" wood still available to the cue maker at reasonable rates, if at all. Once the baby boom generation , post WWII started building houses, buying furniture, etc. etc. the original North American forests gradually diminished- many years ago we were forced into mainly using woods from the results of reforestation- not old growth any longer and , hence, not as dense - the second generation of trees ( if you will).

I will attest to playing with a Gus forearm cue and there was no doubt that this non- full spliced cue had a solidness to the feel of it's hit that resonated from that very dense maple forearm - regardless of tip, shaft taper, joint etc. An analogy would be if you ever handled a baseball bat made from the 1920s thru the early 1960s. - the wood on those bats was so hard that when you rapped your knuckles against the bat it felt more like concrete than the wood of today - the wood was much more dense than today's woods.
 
mikemosconi said:
Full splice cues were always glued together from day one, so if the glues were not as good years ago - why was a full splice cue "stronger" than a short splice cue where the handle was attached internally via metal connections?
Click to expand...
The surface area between the 2 members was larger--giving the glue more stuff to hang on to.
 
MitchAlsup said:
A long time ago, when glues were not as good as today, a full splice cue was structurally stronger.
Now, glues are better.....
Click to expand...
Not trying to argue but that just doesn't really hold water with me. I've played with 50+ yr old cues that are still as tight/straight as when new. No doubt glues are better but a well made cue will last/play almost forever if treated properly.
 
Benelli said:
The same cue can feel completely different in the hands of three different players. Being tactile person you're not going to be able to buy a cue off reputation or construction type alone.

I'm pretty sure the consensus here is going to be to play and feel the different construction types along with specific examples from targeted builders you're considering to get a feel for want in a cue before you buy.

Have you watched the StudioTronic videos on YouTube yet? Eddie is a new builder but in his videos, he covers just about all the different ways you construct and decorate a cue so watching them would be a great place to start.

You can see them here!
Click to expand...
Yes, ideally I would like to play with them but that is difficult these days with lots of sales being online. I guess another question would be where is the best place to try lots of different major brands? Would it be at a large tournament where they have booths set up?
 
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